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8man vs 16man NiM EC Discussion


Ansalem's Avatar


Ansalem
11.18.2012 , 01:10 AM | #11
Well I will say this there was almost no 16m testing done on the PTR so they couldnt really balance it out like they did with 8m which received more testing. Perhaps if they fixed the problem where it started we would see these things balanced better. On a sidenote I think we are seeing 16m guilds decline. It seems like everyone is content just to do 8m raiding since its easier and the same gear. Perhaps if they would make the 16m Nightmare gear better than the 8m version it would motivate more guilds to try the 16 man option. My guild has yet to step foot inside Nightmare because of the day the patch came out, but I look forward to trying it out in about 18 hours.

AshlaBoga's Avatar


AshlaBoga
11.18.2012 , 02:05 AM | #12
In WoW people who beat Heroic 25 mans get a more prestigious title. If they offered different titles that might motivate some people. Instead of "the Infernal" maybe "the Infernal Nightmare" and instead of "the Unyielding" the "the Unyielding Nightmare"?

I really think this would work. Just change the title you get for the 16 Man 2 hr nightmare clears.

Update: Of course my suggestion still wouldn't encourage people to do it after they got the title, but they would have to clear Nightmare EC, TfB, and future ops a few times on 16 man before doing so in under 2hrs.
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Dragonbgone's Avatar


Dragonbgone
11.18.2012 , 02:25 AM | #13
I think the question we need to ask is: Why have most of the 16 man guilds left? And what can we do to bring 16 man raiding back to being what the pinnacle of raiding should be?
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Darel-Ghent's Avatar


Darel-Ghent
11.18.2012 , 05:53 AM | #14
I don't know why you're complaining about the dificulty. From my point of view 16man is great, it offers a real challange, while 8 man Guilds still got no new content at all.
So keep this up i like it.
If 16 man would have been as easy as 8 man is the hole patch would have been worthless. And my guild had once again no new challange ahead.

So 16 man stays the pinnacle of raiding in swtor. Every raider who wants a real challange has to go the 16man path.

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DarkhorseForLife
11.18.2012 , 08:34 AM | #15
The problem isn't the difficulty. That's not why people are complaining. I'm really happy that there is finally something that is literally on the edge of too hard for some really quality raid groups to complete.

That being said, people are kind of pissed (including me) because 8m is comparatively too easy for the same rewards. 8m NiM EC is much easier than 16m. There is no debate to be had. It's not even close . It's REALLY disheartening to see 8m groups reaping the same rewards and makes you question why it's worth doing something just for "prestige".

There are already discussions internally within the guild of breaking down our 16m into two 8m raid groups for farming once we have beat this content for progression, and it's a shame that that's even being considered. Just a personal opinion (I don't speak for all in MoX), but Bioware is going to have to do much more balancing or provide perks for 16m raiding if they want any guilds to keep doing it. It's apparent already that there aren't many of us left.
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Frankt's Avatar


Frankt
11.18.2012 , 08:54 AM | #16
Quote: Originally Posted by DarkhorseForLife View Post
The problem isn't the difficulty. That's not why people are complaining. I'm really happy that there is finally something that is literally on the edge of too hard for some really quality raid groups to complete.

That being said, people are kind of pissed (including me) because 8m is comparatively too easy for the same rewards. 8m NiM EC is much easier than 16m. There is no debate to be had. It's not even close . It's REALLY disheartening to see 8m groups reaping the same rewards and makes you question why it's worth doing something just for "prestige".

There are already discussions internally within the guild of breaking down our 16m into two 8m raid groups for farming once we have beat this content for progression, and it's a shame that that's even being considered. Just a personal opinion (I don't speak for all in MoX), but Bioware is going to have to do much more balancing or provide perks for 16m raiding if they want any guilds to keep doing it. It's apparent already that there aren't many of us left.
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cantoo's Avatar


cantoo
11.18.2012 , 09:08 AM | #17
I am raiding for a challenge, 16man gives it - 8man doesn't.

HM 16man TFB wasn't that hard... And I'm glad that NiM 16man EC is literally a nightmare so far. Mad props to those guilds that are sticking with it. It's a pain in the butt, but that's the way I like it.

I agree that there is a disparity between the two raids but can one actually make 8man as hard or harder than a 16man group? It seems unlikely as 8 people are far more easily managed and its less strenuous on heals. I doubt this could be changed unless BioWare enforces that you ALWAYS bring one sub-par player, where their sole job is to get hit by a) red reticles (ZT), b) stand in the wrong shield (FB/SC), c) jump into red squares (CV), and d) AOE's under the purple shield (Kephess), and e) only use basic attacks. Unlikely.

I think additional rewards (not just increased loot) would be awesome. A different title, an extra battle rez in the fight (please BW), extra chance on the tank mount, etc.
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LanceHarms
11.18.2012 , 12:29 PM | #18
Quote: Originally Posted by DarkhorseForLife View Post
The problem isn't the difficulty. That's not why people are complaining. I'm really happy that there is finally something that is literally on the edge of too hard for some really quality raid groups to complete.

That being said, people are kind of pissed (including me) because 8m is comparatively too easy for the same rewards. 8m NiM EC is much easier than 16m. There is no debate to be had. It's not even close . It's REALLY disheartening to see 8m groups reaping the same rewards and makes you question why it's worth doing something just for "prestige".

There are already discussions internally within the guild of breaking down our 16m into two 8m raid groups for farming once we have beat this content for progression, and it's a shame that that's even being considered. Just a personal opinion (I don't speak for all in MoX), but Bioware is going to have to do much more balancing or provide perks for 16m raiding if they want any guilds to keep doing it. It's apparent already that there aren't many of us left.
I couldn't have said it better myself, being 1 of the first guilds to down T/Z NiM mode.... Our guild is one of the few left on our server doing 16 man, and you hit the nail on the head with our sentiments as well.
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Donalj's Avatar


Donalj
11.18.2012 , 01:58 PM | #19
Ok, just cleared 2nd boss in 16 man and let me say it was an experience, and a good one at that. This is one of the first times we have had any issues other than bugs. Toth & Zorn was a great fight but in regards to difficulty nowhere near as hard as tanks. The fights themselves aren't too hard but require everyone in the team to be on their A game and no one can slack since 1 mistake can and most likely will wipe the entire raid. Looking forward to the difficulty of Kephess now

The only issue i have is that during the 8 hours we spent getting tries on the first and 2nd boss, 8 man guilds cleared the ENTIRE instance. Not even just the first 3 bosses, but everything. The difference in difficulty between the 2 is just unacceptable. The lack of distinction between the two in rewards just makes 16 man completely pointless other than the recognition (even on our server no one sees any difference between 16 man and 8 man) this makes me think in the same way as some of the people in MoX, what is the point of doing 16 man after you have cleared it when it is much harder and there is nothing extra to be gained?
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Chaqen
11.18.2012 , 02:13 PM | #20
Quote: Originally Posted by Donalj View Post
Ok, just cleared 2nd boss in 16 man and let me say it was an experience, and a good one at that. This is one of the first times we have had any issues other than bugs. Toth & Zorn was a great fight but in regards to difficulty nowhere near as hard as tanks. The fights themselves aren't too hard but require everyone in the team to be on their A game and no one can slack since 1 mistake can and most likely will wipe the entire raid. Looking forward to the difficulty of Kephess now

The only issue i have is that during the 8 hours we spent getting tries on the first and 2nd boss, 8 man guilds cleared the ENTIRE instance. Not even just the first 3 bosses, but everything. The difference in difficulty between the 2 is just unacceptable. The lack of distinction between the two in rewards just makes 16 man completely pointless other than the recognition (even on our server no one sees any difference between 16 man and 8 man) this makes me think in the same way as some of the people in MoX, what is the point of doing 16 man after you have cleared it when it is much harder and there is nothing extra to be gained?
You ever take the time to think that the people in those 8 man raids played better as a raid group then your 16 man raid? It has already been proven that the dps checks in 16 man raids are lower then 8 man, i imagine the hps that are needed on a clean run (if alot of people taking extra damage then yes you will need more heals on 16 man) are less then what is needed on 8 man.

There use to be quite a few good 16 man guilds out there, but the majority of them left the game due to the easiness of it. I imagine that a great amount of what is left of 16 man guild's rosters are players that would most likely be on a B team, and not a progression.