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P2W is bad?


Zunayson's Avatar


Zunayson
11.14.2012 , 03:48 PM | #141
Quote: Originally Posted by ACTroyan View Post
OP is incoherrent . P/G2W is lame find other methods to motivate players (pets, armor looks, Titles, speeders, color xtals) moving on
I'm in agreement with you.
Quote: Originally Posted by Uber_the_Goober View Post
Bioware couldn't balance a sheet of plywood if it were laying [sic] on the ground.
Quote: Originally Posted by Aragost View Post
Make sure you take 3/3 in the "knowing how to play" box

Doomsdaycomes's Avatar


Doomsdaycomes
11.14.2012 , 04:06 PM | #142
MMo-PvP and You: A Guide to Growth

Here OP, I think you may need to read this, particularly the section called "Where does PvP start?"

While I agree that the gear grind/progression doesn't make sense in a Wz balance sense, to understand the way MMO PvP is different from say a shooter or a RTS you need to step back and realize we're talking completely different skill sets then just twitch-reflex and a general know-how.

If you actually read it great, if not... can't say I'm too surprised.

Zunayson's Avatar


Zunayson
11.14.2012 , 05:30 PM | #143
Skill is a stretch since my general definition of skill is the execution of strategy through physical ability. I really mean strategy when I say skill because really - pushing buttons every 1.5 seconds is not hard. Skill in an MMO comes from strategically gearing up, knowing the class, rotation (and what not), and teamwork. Example: In FPS games, the strategy is pretty basic; Aim for the head, usually you know which side someone's gonna pop out of if they run behind cover. It's your physical execution of the aiming that is your skill. Here in MMOs, it's less about the execution of ideas and more so about the creation of ideas - class mastery and what not.

Class mastery is obtained through time but not statistically static because of it. Example: It's physically impossible to get war hero the first day WH gear was released. It simply could not be done. Was the skill cap raised? Not necessarily. Maybe no abilities or tweaks were made to any of the classes in that particular patch (even though I know that statement is a gross lie...).

The point is that gear is a direct correlation with time with no real correlation with skill, just time and dedication. The ability to strategically gear up, knowing your class, and teamwork, are, once again, obtained through time, but affected by skill. That is, while your fight begins at character creation, it's affected by your skill, not time played. To put it a different way, you're saying how the grind is in a different way - grind up, play asap, play more than them, you'll have better stats. No, what I'm advocating for is to play so you get good. MMO PvP should test strategy, maybe even a bit of skill. The idea is that someone who's naturally more coordinated and intelligent can play for 2 months and be skillfully on par with one who's played for 6 months. My "/played" or rather "/skill" is directly affected by skill, regardless of when the character was made. Your "/played" is directly affected by time played, regardless of when the character was made, and so long as a gear gap large enough remains, is somewhat disregarding personal skill, as well.

Back to what I was saying - class mastery is directly affected by skill and strategy. Whilst practicing a normal sport or activity, you find that dedication and play time/practice do enhance skills. Substitute skill with talent, strategy, or whatever the activity measures as determining victory. The question arises of what is being determined in swtor? Player skill, or gear? Because gear is directly correlated with time played, you can substitute gear for time played (in this cause your "/played"), and then it sort of spirals downward from there.

In a normal sport, such as Tennis, time played is not being measured. Although time played does increase one's skill, it still has that "skillcap" or threshold that every person has - and that's what's being measured. Because let's face it, some people have genetics that make them stronger or faster than I am, whilst I may be more intelligent (No irl rerolls, so if they get fotm it sort of sucks for everyone else ._.).

The idea is that this personal skillcap afffects the measured performance skill as a function of time played - to put it another way, time played is more like your input while skillcap is the function, and lastly your performance based on your skill and time played. However, Personal skill in a real sport such as tennis works with the time played instead of simply working side by side like it does in swtor.

It can be noted that in SWTOR, one's personal skill does not work in conjuction, but with disjunction with time played - While skill does help, time is being measured as a completely separated entity - as gear (I've established that substitution of gear and time is valid, you can disagree...). In a real sport, they're together; skill is affected by time, but since skill is its own variable, a higher skilled personal is not required to play as long to yield the same results. Once again in swtor, one's time played, or "practice" is not for the sake of practice of skill, but for practice of time, and dedication, which is, honestly in my opinion dumb, since that's not really competition.
Quote: Originally Posted by Uber_the_Goober View Post
Bioware couldn't balance a sheet of plywood if it were laying [sic] on the ground.
Quote: Originally Posted by Aragost View Post
Make sure you take 3/3 in the "knowing how to play" box

Doomsdaycomes's Avatar


Doomsdaycomes
11.14.2012 , 08:31 PM | #144
Quote: Originally Posted by Zunayson View Post

In a normal sport, such as Tennis, time played is not being measured. Although time played does increase one's skill, it still has that "skillcap" or threshold that every person has - and that's what's being measured. Because let's face it, some people have genetics that make them stronger or faster than I am, whilst I may be more intelligent (No irl rerolls, so if they get fotm it sort of sucks for everyone else ._.).

The idea is that this personal skillcap afffects the measured performance skill as a function of time played - to put it another way, time played is more like your input while skillcap is the function, and lastly your performance based on your skill and time played. However, Personal skill in a real sport such as tennis works with the time played instead of simply working side by side like it does in swtor.
Well, I'm glad you have (hopefully) dropped the G2W is equal to P2W argument. Now we're off topic of the orginal point, but down to the main issue.

As you mentioned with Tennis, time isn't measured but rather "skill." Time effects the level of skill, all the way up to a natural "skill cap." I couldn't agree more.

Yet I think you lost the point when you got to genetics. You compared genetics to what we would call "class" in this game, where as I would supply that your physical body in a real life sport is akin to your gear in an MMO. You and I may have the same basic reflex and same intelligence for strategy/tactics, but our bodies will differ. There are genetic traits yes... but the amount either one of us has prepared our bodies will highly influence our chances of winning. If you are a fit, active, and well nourished player and I am an overweight, out of shape, burger guzzling player, our genetics and basic reflex/intelligence no longer matters. Chances are, you will beat me. You will be able to go longer and demand more from your body. Health is a measure of time and the choices you made in that time.

Personally, I think BW shot itself in the foot by adding too many tiers and augmentations. The problem you're describing isn't gear exactly, it's the length of the gear gap. I don't think anyone would argue that recruit vs. augmented WH isn't even a contest, unless the WH is brain dead. Yet BM vs. WH is much more comparable, and augmented BM vs. augmented WH is competitive. I think progression can be good, and it provides rewards for completing tasks. The problem you have, is that the tasks take too long for your liking.

Edit: This isn't a jab at you, but it always amuses me when people say "any moron can grind." If anyone can do it, it really shouldn't be a problem. =P More importantly, those with skill will grind fasterm once they've hit the competitive part. 140 comm win is greater than > 80 comms lose.

Smashbrother's Avatar


Smashbrother
11.14.2012 , 09:21 PM | #145
I honestly think all this crying about gear will disappear if BW just allows us to buy gear with credits once we've unlocked them on our mains. Gearing up one guy in WH is not difficult at all, and everyone should have to grind it out. However, gearing up 3 more alts is a pain in the ***. I know, I have 3 full WH chars, and a 4th that just hit 50.

Castiel's Avatar


Castiel
12.26.2012 , 01:47 PM | #146
TBH I've never seen P2W on a scale such as SWTOR's, and I'm laughing at BW and EA for their greedyness. Just because your game is tanking, doesn't mean you have to make it p2w.

Zunayson's Avatar


Zunayson
12.26.2012 , 04:00 PM | #147
the amount of joy that comes to my heart when my post gets necrod a long with like 3 others <3
Quote: Originally Posted by Uber_the_Goober View Post
Bioware couldn't balance a sheet of plywood if it were laying [sic] on the ground.
Quote: Originally Posted by Aragost View Post
Make sure you take 3/3 in the "knowing how to play" box

DarthOvertone's Avatar


DarthOvertone
12.26.2012 , 04:44 PM | #148
Quote: Originally Posted by Castiel View Post
TBH I've never seen P2W on a scale such as SWTOR's, and I'm laughing at BW and EA for their greedyness.
Then you haven't seen many F2P games. I can think of three P2W items in game at the moment...the Pink Expertise Crystal and the two Spaceship Upgrade sets. Three items is large scale P2W? lol

Additionally, P2W items only make publishers money because players purchase them en masse. If players didn't consume P2W items so wholeheartedly, there wouldn't be any such items in any virtual store.


Quote: Originally Posted by Zunayson View Post
the amount of joy that comes to my heart when my post gets necrod a long with like 3 others <3
It's not that bad a necro tbh. The thread is only like a month old. heh
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