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P2W is bad?


Zunayson's Avatar


Zunayson
11.12.2012 , 09:48 PM | #1
WHY?

Yep, a Gear grind QQ thread disguised as a P2W QQ thread!

Give me a reason why pay to win is bad.

PVP MEASURES SKILL! THOSE WITH BETTUR MONEY WINS!
Those with bettur gear wins....

PVP ISN'T SUPPOSED TO MEASURE THE SIZE OF YOUR WALLET
It's also not supposed to measure the number of empty spaces on your calender... which is what allows you to get the gear and therefore win....
REBUTTAL: GEAR DOESN'T NECESSARILY CAUSE AN AUTOMATIC WIN; SKILL IS INVOLVED! THE GEAR GRIND IS JUSTIFIED!
Then so is P2W, since "gear doesn't necessarily cause an automatic win", then any advantage obtained unskillfully via money is analogous to any advantage obtained unskillfully via time sink.... Thus, since I most likely must spell this out for you, if an advantage via time sink is justified, an advantage via micro-transaction must be as well.

GEAR SLAUGHTER DOESN'T ENCOURAGE NEW PLAYERS TO PLAY, THIS GAME IS DYING!
Not only is this off-topic, but the grind right now has a huge gap and also "doesn't encourage new players to play". In other words, your point is invalid!

EDIT: Wave 2 of arguments after more than 100 replies! :O

P2W TAKES OUT ALL THE CHALLENGE TO GET REWARD! G2W DOESN'T!
Okay, you're saying that P2W doesn't have challenge, and that grind 2 win does. So let me think: what does grind to win have that pay to win doesn't? .... grinding. So if you're saying that P2W doesn't have challenge but G2W does, you're telling me that grinding is the challenge. And if this game is about who has the most time on their hands... then... gah thank God halo 4 just came out so I have something to run back to.
BOTTOM LINE: Your point only works if you're admitting to PvP (NOTE: Player vs Player) being about measuring the time the player has grinded, and not his or her skill. The former goes against anyone's doctrine on the matter and the latter invalidates your point

P2W completely screws up gear progression, takes away all the satisfaction from getting new pieces, would make server firsts completely meaningless and there would be no reason whatsoever to raid or do warzones.
Well, this is sort of iffy, since some believe pvp should, and others say it should not have gear progression. Since you obviously believe it should, let me spell it out for you: What is Pvp? PvP, from the definition I'm aware of (Please do correct me if I'm wrong) is Player vs Player. This should be to compete. You say that lack of gear progression means that warzones and raids would be completely meaningless.

RIght now a full recruit will get stomped by a full wh. This is NOT progression. I'm not gonna lie i don't care at all if I have recruit. I care if I get stomped by full war hero. You are not forced to play lv 10 content as a lv 1.
BOTTOM LINE:
FACT: PvP here has no gear progression - proven by definition
YOUR ARGUMENT: P2W is bad because it ****s with progression
MY ARGUMENT: G2W ****s with progression
CONCLUSION USING YOUR OWN ARGUMENT: G2W is bad because it ****s with progression



For a game to be a clean contest and have the integrity to keep people engaged, it must not be possible to simply buy your way to victory, because then it's just a contest to see who can spend the most rather than who's best at the game.
God-awful analogy! It's one thing to learn to play, it's a totally different game gearing up. Unless, you're telling me that gearing up = skilling up. And since chess measures skill, and we're drawing parallels, logic suggests that you're telling me that since chess measures skill that: PvP measures gear. And by the defintion I was told player vs player measures SKILL, not gear. Your point has been invalidated!

Two wrongs does not make a right.
I'm not saying that either one is good, in fact I'm declaiming both of them. I'm saying that if you support (see bolded below). Also I just now edited in my personal view on the subject in the very last line. P.S. just read the whole thread, sorry it took so long, lots of homework (ZOMG A KID) and one hundred posts to read sucks D:

Would the Olympic swimming team let a millionare join them who doesn't even know how to swim and hasn't had the time and effort to learn the tricks of the trade?
Nope. But swimming measures "the tricks of the trade". It's illogical for me to whine that the other team is more skilled. It's most certainly logical, however, for me to whine about them being more geared. PvP does, after all, measure SKILL, not GEAR. I CANNOT stress this enough! GEAR should be a constant, OR SKILL should be a constant, but you do not have TWO input variables!

BORED SO JUST WANTED TO SAY THAT

Quote:
Is that the game, where knights can force leap? Bishops use force speed? Kings stealth and rooks take cover and turn into miniature turrets?
https://d37wxxhohlp07s.cloudfront.ne...jpg?1347586633
Back to invalidation ._.

P2W is a horrible aspect that screws up all sense of gear progression and allows an injustified advantage over other players, damaging any "fun" aspect or a sense of accomplishment.
G2W is a horrible aspect that screws up all sense of skill and allows an unjustified* advantage over other players, damaging any "fun" aspect or sense of accomplishment. You see, my statement makes sense. A non-skill thingy screws with skill and makes the game unfun. We all should know that pvp measures skill by now (Like 3 rants on the damned subject!). What you say is that a non-gear thingy screws with gear and makes the game unfun. by this logic, then, pvp is about gear, and not skill. Proof by contradiction, definition of PvP is skill.

Because it creates inequality between those who have money and those who don't.
I know that, but why are inequalities bad? There's inequality right now. INB4 "They can grind gear". GUESS WHAT. YOU CAN GRIND MONEY. Since you think P2W is bad you must also think G2W is bad and therefore, I hope you stayed home this election because the U.S. will surely get ****ed up with illogical people voting.

Tell me why a person who doesn't have time to play the game would want to play the most competitive aspect of PvP with those who put hundreds if not THOUSANDS of hours of dedicated, hard work and practice into the game?
Because my knowledge of my class and that fact that I'm probably better than 50% of the people that play SWTOR dictates my victory. I fail to see how a statistical advantage merits epeen, unless, of course, PvP is all about gear n stuff. Gear and dedication. Which it most certainly is NOT! I
REBUTTAL: BUT IT TAKES TIME TO GET SKILL!
Yeah, not really. Very little skill in this game, hate to break to ya bud, and it does not take 4 months or whatever which is what it takes from lv 1 to full aug'd WH to master your class...

There is a degree of equality when it comes to the "grind" as eventually, everyone will get on equal par.
So what you're saying is that time accumulates itself up so that by the end of the year, you'd have played the same number of hours that hardcores can get in two months. First, you can "grind" up your money. Secondly, your financial savings will add up over a year to what others may get in two months. and by then everyone will get on equal par.

Time doesn't equal money
This goes against so many false proof equations of math that put in time = money.

Sense: This thread makes none.
Sense: Your post makes none.
Sense: My thread invented it.
I did it twice! I grinded moar! I WIN!

poeple that want p2w usualy are just terrible at the game and NEED an advantage..
Or I'd like to be rewarded for my skill and would actually like to survive that 2v1 onslaught instead of marginally losing the battle and then consequently the match. Just a thought, though.

People seem to think if they have a "good" reason for not playing a game, they "deserve" everything the game has to offer. Just doesn't work that way.
Feel free to correct my paraphrasing of your post, since I did not entirely understand it, but I think what you're trying to say here is that Mr. I have a Life thinks he deserves something from the game? Well, does Mr. I have no Life deserve something from the game? Cause, he does have more, you know, the gear...
REBUTTAL: YEAH! HE GRINDED FOR IT!
Yep, so he did. But is grind the point of PvP? Or is it competition? Grinding =/= entitlement for a game's reward, UNLESS the game's objective is to grind, which is preposterous, as this is (for the fifth? time) PLAYER vs PLAYER

if they can buy an easier gear grind what would be the incentive to sub.
Well, this post only has valid meaning if the reason one plays is to grind. which is, to see above, preposterous. So let me get this straight: You grind to get gear, and after you have BiS, you just quit? It's not even fun? You just put in all this time and then bam quit when you get BiS? It's not even fun? I'm not the irrational one 'round here...

layers would be forced to buy such an item to compete at the highest level and could not acquire the item through normal PvP grinding.
Uhh oh you caught me with my pants down. I didn't realize this, but I seriously doubt biofail would do this. You deserve half my cartel coins! :O

Find the argument you stick with, and then see how you're irrationally thinking if you support both P2W and the gear grind!

If you cannot find your reasons, then post them so I may invalidate them!

For the record, I am against both the gear grind and P2W.
Quote: Originally Posted by Uber_the_Goober View Post
Bioware couldn't balance a sheet of plywood if it were laying [sic] on the ground.
Quote: Originally Posted by Aragost View Post
Make sure you take 3/3 in the "knowing how to play" box

Doomsdaycomes's Avatar


Doomsdaycomes
11.12.2012 , 10:02 PM | #2
Real simple, it's a matter of integrity.

If the company begins it's P2W route, first it will be even terms. Money or Time for gear. Sound nice right?

Then it get's to be Money or More Time.

Pretty soon the only way to get gear is Money, or spending an outrageous amount of time. (You think this gear grind bad, go play Perfect World).

Now what the company is suppose to be providing is a game to waste time in, but instead they are gobbling up your money and whoring themselves out to the highest bidder. Trust me, as someone who spent over 2,000 in two years on one game... you -do not- want pay to win.

More importantly, if you think paying for your gear vs. putting time in playing the game for it is some how an equal term... <.< well you probably don't love games.

Zunayson's Avatar


Zunayson
11.12.2012 , 10:23 PM | #3
No, I love games, I just don't love work. The only equality I'm drawing for P2W and G2W is around the reasons that people don't like P2W. If x (your reasoning) then P2W is bad, well... x also implies that G2W is bad. Logically, then, G2W must be bad....

The only integrity on the subject is that people accept grinding because they're used to it in the genre.
Quote: Originally Posted by Uber_the_Goober View Post
Bioware couldn't balance a sheet of plywood if it were laying [sic] on the ground.
Quote: Originally Posted by Aragost View Post
Make sure you take 3/3 in the "knowing how to play" box

Smashbrother's Avatar


Smashbrother
11.12.2012 , 10:35 PM | #4
Quote: Originally Posted by Zunayson View Post
WHY?

Yep, a Gear grind QQ thread disguised as a P2W QQ thread!

Give me a reason why pay to win is bad.

PVP MEASURES SKILL! THOSE WITH BETTUR MONEY WINS!
Those with bettur gear wins....

PVP ISN'T SUPPOSED TO MEASURE THE SIZE OF YOUR WALLET
It's also not supposed to measure the number of empty spaces on your calender... which is what allows you to get the gear and therefore win....
REBUTTAL: GEAR DOESN'T NECESSARILY CAUSE AN AUTOMATIC WIN; SKILL IS INVOLVED! THE GEAR GRIND IS JUSTIFIED!
Then so is P2W, since "gear doesn't necessarily cause an automatic win", then any advantage obtained unskillfully via money is analogous to any advantage obtained unskillfully via time sink.... Thus, since I most likely must spell this out for you, if an advantage via time sink is justified, an advantage via micro-transaction must be as well.

GEAR SLAUGHTER DOESN'T ENCOURAGE NEW PLAYERS TO PLAY, THIS GAME IS DYING!
Not only is this off-topic, but the grind right now has a huge gap and also "doesn't encourage new players to play". In other words, your point is invalid!

Find the argument you stick with, and then see how you're irrationally thinking if you support both P2W and the gear grind!

If you cannot find your reasons, then post them so I may invalidate them!
Here's why P2W is bad. If you can buy the best gear with money, then every time a new set of gear comes out, people with tons of money will be able to buy the whole set instantly right off the bat. This will give said players a massive advantage in RWZs. This means any serious pvp guild will be forced to buy the best gear right when it comes out (instead of grinding the gear slowly), in order to be competitive. When you force people to spend money in order to be competitive, that is a problem. Personally, I have integrity issues with P2W, and so do a lot of people. If SWTOR went P2W, I and many other people will stop playing and that's not good for the game in the long term.

Gear grinding has nothing to do with P2W because everyone has to put in the same amount of effort/time in order to acquire the gear. With P2W however, some people might have rich parents who give them plenty of cash, while other kids might not be so lucky. Some people might make minimum wage, while others might make $100+/hour. This is why it's unfair to have P2W. Time on the other hand is the great equalizer. Everyone has the same amount. No more, no less.

Doomsdaycomes's Avatar


Doomsdaycomes
11.12.2012 , 10:56 PM | #5
Quote: Originally Posted by Zunayson View Post
No, I love games, I just don't love work. The only equality I'm drawing for P2W and G2W is around the reasons that people don't like P2W. If x (your reasoning) then P2W is bad, well... x also implies that G2W is bad. Logically, then, G2W must be bad....

The only integrity on the subject is that people accept grinding because they're used to it in the genre.
<.< You... didn't even understand what I said.

Okay... so the purpose of a game is to play it right? Whatever it's rules are, you play a game to beat it's challenges, get it's rewards, etc...

P2W means you aren't playing the game to beat it's challenges and get it's rewards, you're paying to skip it's challenges and get it's rewards.

Further more, if you find the tasks you have to do while you play "Work" then you are simply playing the wrong game.

Doomsdaycomes's Avatar


Doomsdaycomes
11.12.2012 , 10:58 PM | #6
Quote: Originally Posted by Smashbrother View Post
Gear grinding has nothing to do with P2W because everyone has to put in the same amount of effort/time in order to acquire the gear. With P2W however, some people might have rich parents who give them plenty of cash, while other kids might not be so lucky. Some people might make minimum wage, while others might make $100+/hour. This is why it's unfair to have P2W. Time on the other hand is the great equalizer. Everyone has the same amount. No more, no less.
Ya... he's gonna try and pull some "Not everyone has the same amount of time."

Funny thing is, there are 24 hours in a day for everyone, it just depends on how you use them.

Darth-Rammstein's Avatar


Darth-Rammstein
11.13.2012 , 12:22 AM | #7
Quote: Originally Posted by Smashbrother View Post
Gear grinding has nothing to do with P2W because everyone has to put in the same amount of effort/time in order to acquire the gear. With P2W however, some people might have rich parents who give them plenty of cash, while other kids might not be so lucky. Some people might make minimum wage, while others might make $100+/hour. This is why it's unfair to have P2W. Time on the other hand is the great equalizer. Everyone has the same amount. No more, no less.
Everyone has the same amount of time huh? So the guy with a full time job has the same amount of time available as the unemployed people that can play all day?
Belgoth's Beacon ----> The Fatman ----> Prophecy of the Five

filipesantana's Avatar


filipesantana
11.13.2012 , 12:24 AM | #8
you can not possibly be asking for p2w specially for pvp....

you are the ultimate example of a scrub that should re-roll another game.

Not all of us have rich wallets/credit cards...btu everyone HAS TIME...the SAME time actualy..its jsut a matter of how you use it..and if you cant use it as often as some players..well too bad...you will get THERE...LATER...but all of us wont get RICHER any time SOON...catch my drift?now crawl back to your cave


edit:also this wouldnt happent...because its know now to FAIL and KILL games even faster...people SPEND money on chosmetic items..you will see how happy BW will eb with cartel stuff..they know there is no need for p2w...and that the HUGE majority of the playeerbase worldwide is agaisnt it..

CommanderKeeva's Avatar


CommanderKeeva
11.13.2012 , 02:35 AM | #9
Quote: Originally Posted by Zunayson View Post
WHY?

Yep, a Gear grind QQ thread disguised as a P2W QQ thread!

Give me a reason why pay to win is bad.

PVP MEASURES SKILL! THOSE WITH BETTUR MONEY WINS!
Those with bettur gear wins....

PVP ISN'T SUPPOSED TO MEASURE THE SIZE OF YOUR WALLET
It's also not supposed to measure the number of empty spaces on your calender... which is what allows you to get the gear and therefore win....
REBUTTAL: GEAR DOESN'T NECESSARILY CAUSE AN AUTOMATIC WIN; SKILL IS INVOLVED! THE GEAR GRIND IS JUSTIFIED!
Then so is P2W, since "gear doesn't necessarily cause an automatic win", then any advantage obtained unskillfully via money is analogous to any advantage obtained unskillfully via time sink.... Thus, since I most likely must spell this out for you, if an advantage via time sink is justified, an advantage via micro-transaction must be as well.

GEAR SLAUGHTER DOESN'T ENCOURAGE NEW PLAYERS TO PLAY, THIS GAME IS DYING!
Not only is this off-topic, but the grind right now has a huge gap and also "doesn't encourage new players to play". In other words, your point is invalid!

Find the argument you stick with, and then see how you're irrationally thinking if you support both P2W and the gear grind!

If you cannot find your reasons, then post them so I may invalidate them!
Let me think...

Still thinking....

Wait for it....

NO.

Invalidate this reason:

P2W completely screws up gear progression, takes away all the satisfaction from getting new pieces, would make server firsts completely meaningless and there would be no reason whatsoever to raid or do warzones.

You do endgame content TO acquire new peices of gear. If you're fully min/maxed from day one than the operation/warzone will be trivially easy and won't be any incentive to do it again.

I'm not a huge supporter of the current split gear grind (I want both PvE and PvP to award the exact same type of gear) but I'm a staunch supporter of the idea that nothing should should be gained if you don't do anything.
BEING A GOOD SOLDIER COMES DOWN TO ONE THING, ONE SINGLE QUESTION:
WHAT ARE YOU PREPARED TO SACRIFICE?

Fregger's Avatar


Fregger
11.13.2012 , 02:46 AM | #10
Quote: Originally Posted by filipesantana View Post
Not all of us have rich wallets/credit cards...btu everyone HAS TIME...the SAME time actualy..its jsut a matter of how you use it..and if you cant use it as often as some players..well too bad...you will get THERE...LATER...but all of us wont get RICHER any time SOON...catch my drift?now crawl back to your cave
Uhm ?!?!
Well a day has 24 h for everybody, right. But the question is how much time do you have available for playing. As a student I had 12h+ now I have 2h at maximum. But now I have money to compensate. That's fair, so let me buy the stuff. Btw, I did enough skill and gear grinding to last for three lifetimes.

OR

Kill gear progression for pvp. Stupid idea anyways. Softcore kiddies playstyle, bah. In the old times 14/18 I ...