um Bethesda didn't make FO:NV Obsidian did.

Bethesda did. Obsidian is the publisher, like Activision. Bethesda is the game company. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bethesda_Softworks

Like BW is the game company and EA is the publisher.

but it does make sense that a non WoW-type of an MMO may result in failure..

WoW is not the be-all end-all MMORPG. In fact, a lot would say it ruined the MMO genre.

I love these *********** idiots who played WoW and think it's the only MMO ever made.

There were PLENTY of MMOs before WoW, most of which were sandbox games. They didn't fail.

WoW is not the be-all end-all MMORPG. In fact, a lot would say it ruined the MMO genre.

 

I love these *********** idiots who played WoW and think it's the only MMO ever made.

 

There were PLENTY of MMOs before WoW, most of which were sandbox games. They didn't fail.

Compared to WOW, I'd say about every MMO fails in camparison when it comes to sales.

Its unfortunate but its the true.

8 years ago, most MMO's had a cap of 350,000 subs. 7 years ago, WOW came and they started off with a quickly increasing number and finally got a total of 12 million subs creating a record that still holds today. I hope it changes soon they.

Very unlikely that you'll see any type of new Star Wars MMO until this game has run its course. I wouldn't doubt that EA & Lucas Arts have an agreement of exclusivity regarding a Star Wars MMO.

It wouldn't make much sense for Lucas Arts to license out its IP for an MMO only to turn around and do the same thing with another company. That would give them a pretty bad reputation among publishers. Not to mention it would be counter productive to their goal of making as much money as possible from this project.

As much as I loved the Pre-CU...Lucasarts would probably never try it again. From their eyes, SWG was a failure...and IMO it's a shame they feel that way.

Everyone is looking for their piece of the WoW pie...when SWG came out it was actually considered a moderate success. Sure it wasn't EQ1 numbers, but MMOs weren't benchmarked by how many MILLIONS of Subs they could produce back then. Horrible release schedule of new features (Mounts 4 months later???), and the inevitable misunderstanding of the core game (Where's my raidz/Jedee/Quests?) caused the population to nosedive.

Pre-CU was actually becoming the most stable it's ever been by patch 14, which oddly enough was the last patch before the CU. And also within 6 months after the release of WOW...

Given the amount of hype and talking up LA did before SWG was released about it shattering records and the such, you'd be naive to say that they didn't have a large hand in the CU/NGE even seeing the light of day. WoW was making money, and it was vastly different than the product they thought could break the "one million mark" back in 2003. I know it's 'hip' and 'in' to bash SOE, but the SOE I remember from 2003-2006 had horrible releases that improved dramatically over time. If you played EQ2 during this timeframe you'd probably know what I'm saying. Nowadays, I wish I could say the same thing about SOE, lol...

However, given my beliefs and opinions on the rise and fall of SWG, Lucasarts would most likely NEVER make another sandbox MMO Star Wars game. They tried it once, and if they considered it a success, these forums would not exist and SWG would not be off line.

IMO, of course.

I just had an Idea for a Star Wars Sandbox game...

"Star Wars: Tatooine"

The game world is massive, physically many square kilometers in size. It all happens on Tatooine, and it's a big sanbox, literally. It'll be the most San Box game ever!

Just ignore the whole " U NEVAR PLAI BEFORE PRE-NGE CU" It's just somthing that they throw into their comments to make them feel like they have entitlement to something that isn't there...Just like the people who say they played "Vanilla WoW". I played Pre-NGE/CU and after it...It was a great all around game. The only reason they left was beacuase they didn't want change. Combat was horrific in SWG anyway you put it. Crafting, space, and, roleplay were fine tuned and exceptional.

 

If someone could take the idea of SWG and refine it...It would be fantastic. SWTOR's story for classes is amazing and emotion evoking, take that and put it into a game where you can do anything you want with repercussions for every one of your actions and you've got yourself the God sandbox MMO.

I played SWG from day #2 and quit (the first time) a couple days after the CU hit. Tried the NGE and hated that too.

I think when people say, "you never played pre-NGE" or pre-CU, it isn't necessarily about entitlement or trying to say they're better or anything; it's simply a statement of fact that the pre-CU SWG was a rather unique MMO that was significantly different from the various WoW clones that have permeated the industry.

For myself, I thoroughly enjoyed the completely wide open character customization options that existed; you could be a master swordsman with a minimal amount of brawling as a base (or full master brawler, if you wanted the additional benefits that came with it), include a master doctor spec with that, be a master architect with master scout, partial marksman build with bounty hunter, etc. Every type of variation of character skills you wanted, you could get. Take a look at this website for an overview:

http://www.swgcharacterbuilder.com/swg-cb.php

Then too, there was also the tremendous amount of player created content with player cities, a huge crafting system (I made the best 2-handed curved swords on all of Corbantis, btw), player vendors, etc.

There were certainly a *lot* of shortcomings to the game (lagginess, bugs galore, the weekly nerf bat, not a lot of content), but in my opinion it was a very original idea that had a tremendous amount of potential.

The CU (and NGE) completely destroyed that game, though. Despite vehement objections from the test server players that were about 99% negative, they still rolled the CU out and "Star Wars Galaxies" essentially became "World of Star Wars craft." People left in droves, and while I'm no expert, I know that I would regularly see large crowds of players in the major cities by the starports & cantinas, along with hundreds of players scattered across each of the various worlds. Within days after the CU, even the Coronet starport (the busiest location in the entire server) was a ghost town.

So yeah, when people say "you never played pre-CU," it's because there was a significant difference between the game as it existed before the combat upgrade and the game it was afterward.

And in case anyone asks, yes; I'm aware that SWTOR is essentially World of Star Wars-craft, and that it is level based (which I'm not a fan of), but Bioware does essentially put a cocktail dress on a pig, teach it to dance, and makes for a WoW clone that is significantly better than I expected it to be. If they had instead made this a skills-based game that completely ignored levels and was much more sandbox-like (if not wholly sandbox), I would imagine I'd like it a lot more.

Given the amount of hype and talking up LA did before SWG was released about it shattering records and the such, you'd be naive to say that they didn't have a large hand in the CU/NGE even seeing the light of day. WoW was making money, and it was vastly different than the product they thought could break the "one million mark" back in 2003. I know it's 'hip' and 'in' to bash SOE, but the SOE I remember from 2003-2006 had horrible releases that improved dramatically over time. If you played EQ2 during this timeframe you'd probably know what I'm saying. Nowadays, I wish I could say the same thing about SOE, lol...

 

However, given my beliefs and opinions on the rise and fall of SWG, Lucasarts would most likely NEVER make another sandbox MMO Star Wars game. They tried it once, and if they considered it a success, these forums would not exist and SWG would not be off line.

 

IMO, of course.

I don't think we bash SOE because it's hip. Instead, it's because of the way they treated us. Personally, I've always bashed SOE because of the big middle finger they gave us on the forums during the whole run up to the Combat Upgrade. The Test Server forums were completely buried in posts from players (like me) who tried it on the test server, absolutely hated it, and were vocal (sometimes in a polite way, sometimes not so much) about saying so. They rolled it out anyway, and we showed our displeasure by cancelling our subscription. Even John Smedley has admitted that not listening to the players was a mistake.

Maybe it's hip for some folks to bash SOE, but the way I look at it, if I come to your place of business and I like your product but you then decide that I'll like another product a lot better despite the fact that I and many of your other customers tell you we dislike it immensely and you then decide to discontinue the old product anyway and give us the new product, I've got every justification I need to tell people you're completely full of you know what.

I enjoyed SWG (pre- and post-CU) for a while, but it got to the point where I'd log on, wait in line for doc buffs, run around a while, maybe solo-group for a bit and log out. I RP'd slicing weapons for some people (which was pretty fun), but that was it.

Later, when I made a crafter, there was more to do; but it was ultimately busy work - chasing resource spawns - and not "fun."

Most people look back with rose-colored glasses and remember the game being more fun than it actually was.

I enjoyed SWG (pre- and post-CU) for a while, but it got to the point where I'd log on, wait in line for doc buffs, run around a while, maybe solo-group for a bit and log out. I RP'd slicing weapons for some people (which was pretty fun), but that was it.

 

Later, when I made a crafter, there was more to do; but it was ultimately busy work - chasing resource spawns - and not "fun."

 

Most people look back with rose-colored glasses and remember the game being more fun than it actually was.

True enough. But it was different!

Seriously, though; I would have to agree. SWG was the kind of game made for the uber-obsessive OCD types who just had to create a Jedi, no matter what. I bought a second copy of the game (along with the 2nd subscription) specifically so I could build the best 2-h curved swords on the server because I wanted a Wookie samurai-type (i.e., Swordsman). I also built that 2nd character into a master architect so I could have a house, with all the associated nonsense that went with that.

Did the grind to master on numerous classes (including Dancer, of all things), did 95% of the Village quest when they switched to that when I was one class away from unlocking the holocron. The CU hit before I finished the Village.

Overall, there was an awful lot of pandering to my obsessiveness (and a lot of other people's, I assume), but not a tremendous amount of fun. There was definitely a certain sense of accomplishment when I hit certain milestones; master Swordsman, realizing my 2-h curved swords were better than anything else on the server, unlocking the first three (I think?) holocrons, etc., but I don't recall that I had a lot of fun while I was grinding through to those accomplishments.

Still, I do think Bioware could do an amazing job if they did a sandbox game.

I don't think we bash SOE because it's hip. Instead, it's because of the way they treated us. Personally, I've always bashed SOE because of the big middle finger they gave us on the forums during the whole run up to the Combat Upgrade. The Test Server forums were completely buried in posts from players (like me) who tried it on the test server, absolutely hated it, and were vocal (sometimes in a polite way, sometimes not so much) about saying so. They rolled it out anyway, and we showed our displeasure by cancelling our subscription. Even John Smedley has admitted that not listening to the players was a mistake.

 

Maybe it's hip for some folks to bash SOE, but the way I look at it, if I come to your place of business and I like your product but you then decide that I'll like another product a lot better despite the fact that I and many of your other customers tell you we dislike it immensely and you then decide to discontinue the old product anyway and give us the new product, I've got every justification I need to tell people you're completely full of you know what.

Smedley also stated that working with a 3rd Party IP can be 'hell', implying Lucasarts since this was a question he fielded during development of DCOL, their only other 3rd party IP they developed at the time.

I totally respect people's opinions about SOE. I never felt as strongly against them as most, especially after my experience during the 'golden age' of EQ2 which was mostly positive. And I'm not saying they're not to blame for the NGE, but they weren't the only one to blame.

It just seems like people like to place 100% of the blame for the CU/NGE on SOE because of their track record but fail to remember:

A) this was Lucasarts 1st MMO

B) People speculated LA was going to pull the plug at the end of 2005 if 'something wasnt done'

C) It was Lucasarts employee Julio Torres who played up the NGE's 'star warsy and iconic' gameplay in a way that made him look like the second coming of Rick McCallum

D) While he was doing that, SOE employee Tiggs was fired for flipping out about how the CU and NGE were mishandled from both sides, all started from LA's constant obsession of 'changing the game'.

IMO, the seed was planted by LA, under the pain of pulling the plug...SOE obviously coded the monstrosity that is the NGE, so you can't go without blaming them as well either. I'm just saying that, again, IMO, placing blame solely on SOE is utterly wrong.

there is a great sandbox game that is about to be re-launched. When its relaunched it iwll be good, its called darkfall look it up.

 

Plays like elder scrolls, open world, open pvp, open loot, no safe zones, all out madness and fun. Problem is it sucks right now because they orginally launched the game without any skill cap and with a grind that would make you numb.

 

After a year or so people who power leveled managed to build god-mode characters and thus new players will just free loot.

I would NEVER classify Darkfall as good. It was a mess of a game the first time, failed and now they're trying to redo it. It's going to fail again because they don't have the time, money or skill to pull it off. It's hard making mmo's. That's why very few mmo's succeed, especially from smaller developers. Horizons: Or Empire of Istaria is probably one of the best smaller developer mmo's created and it wasn't a success either. Actually most mmo's are unsuccessful. WoW has been really the only one to pull big numbers. I have no idea why. I think it horribly boring but I did play it.

Smedley also stated that working with a 3rd Party IP can be 'hell', implying Lucasarts since this was a question he fielded during development of DCOL, their only other 3rd party IP they developed at the time.

 

I totally respect people's opinions about SOE. I never felt as strongly against them as most, especially after my experience during the 'golden age' of EQ2 which was mostly positive. And I'm not saying they're not to blame for the NGE, but they weren't the only one to blame.

 

It just seems like people like to place 100% of the blame for the CU/NGE on SOE because of their track record but fail to remember:

A) this was Lucasarts 1st MMO

B) People speculated LA was going to pull the plug at the end of 2005 if 'something wasnt done'

C) It was Lucasarts employee Julio Torres who played up the NGE's 'star warsy and iconic' gameplay in a way that made him look like the second coming of Rick McCallum

D) While he was doing that, SOE employee Tiggs was fired for flipping out about how the CU and NGE were mishandled from both sides, all started from LA's constant obsession of 'changing the game'.

 

IMO, the seed was planted by LA, under the pain of pulling the plug...SOE obviously coded the monstrosity that is the NGE, so you can't go without blaming them as well either. I'm just saying that, again, IMO, placing blame solely on SOE is utterly wrong.

Completely agreed, but it's kinda like having a mob enforcer show up to your house and beat your family senseless in front of you, then trying to forgive the enforcer because he's just following orders. I don't for a minute think LA wasn't a big factor in this decision, and I've felt for nearly 30 years that Lucas doesn't care about anything other than the money, but we've had enough decent games over the years that I still thought there was a chance that SWG would continue to get better instead of going down the toilet the way it did.

The forum thing, though, was really what set me off. Maybe I'm misremembering things (bitterness will do that to you, I'm sure), but I seem to recall a lot of blatant denial of everything we had to say about the CU. There was no attempt to deal with us in a straightforward and honest manner; it was just, "give it a chance, you'll like it." And when we said we had tried it on the test server and quite emphatically did not like it, we got deafening silence in return.

I don't know how much more blatant they could have been in saying, "We don't want your susbcriptions because there's not enough of you. We want the 1 million+ subscriptions we think we'll get by changing over to World of Star Wars craft." Would there have been any way to soften that blow or say it a bit more nicely? I don't know, but what I do know is that I've never seen a gaming company so blatantly give the middle finger to their fans.

And that is why I will never forgive SOE and will bash them until the day John Smedley leaves.

Completely agreed, but it's kinda like having a mob enforcer show up to your house and beat your family senseless in front of you, then trying to forgive the enforcer because he's just following orders. I don't for a minute think LA wasn't a big factor in this decision, and I've felt for nearly 30 years that Lucas doesn't care about anything other than the money, but we've had enough decent games over the years that I still thought there was a chance that SWG would continue to get better instead of going down the toilet the way it did.

 

The forum thing, though, was really what set me off. Maybe I'm misremembering things (bitterness will do that to you, I'm sure), but I seem to recall a lot of blatant denial of everything we had to say about the CU. There was no attempt to deal with us in a straightforward and honest manner; it was just, "give it a chance, you'll like it." And when we said we had tried it on the test server and quite emphatically did not like it, we got deafening silence in return.

 

I don't know how much more blatant they could have been in saying, "We don't want your susbcriptions because there's not enough of you. We want the 1 million+ subscriptions we think we'll get by changing over to World of Star Wars craft." Would there have been any way to soften that blow or say it a bit more nicely? I don't know, but what I do know is that I've never seen a gaming company so blatantly give the middle finger to their fans.

 

And that is why I will never forgive SOE and will bash them until the day John Smedley leaves.

The whole SWG NGE left a very bitter taste in my mouth the masses were ignored and the god almighty dollar was king. Lets make it Linear lets make it simple. Forget the peoples interactions with one another. I do blame LA for much of the troubles that they had and I hope they learned a Valuble lesson LISTEN TO YOUR PLAYERS...

Bethesda did. Obsidian is the publisher, like Activision. Bethesda is the game company. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bethesda_Softworks

 

Like BW is the game company and EA is the publisher.

You're still wrong, even the wikipedia link you povided shows that New Vegas wasn't made by Bethesda.

After they bought the Fallout IP, they made Fallout3.

The next Fallout game, New Vegas, was made by Obsidian and published by Bethesda Softworks.

It's not that hard to verify.

The whole SWG NGE left a very bitter taste in my mouth the masses were ignored and the god almighty dollar was king. Lets make it Linear lets make it simple. Forget the peoples interactions with one another. I do blame LA for much of the troubles that they had and I hope they learned a Valuble lesson LISTEN TO YOUR PLAYERS...

Well, hopefully SOE will learn (and John Smedley has at least admitted they made a mistake, so it's possible). George Lucas will never learn.

Heck, maybe that's the answer; once George Lucas finally kicks the bucket (not that I wish him any harm) and someone else takes over, maybe that person will care enough to try something different.