Subversion of the democratic process is clearly the dark side choice in this matter.

 

Isn't that how Palpatine overthrew the republic and became Emperor?

Actually, the quest he is talking about had some weird mix up on the light/dark choices.

 

The light side choice is to take a fake pile of documents back to her and essentially "lie" to her.

 

The dark side choice is to expose the Senator.

 

Seems completely backwards to me - though I wish I had just refused to steal the documents after all. I was "fine" with "stealing" the documents to expose corruption. Subterfuge and information gathering typically involve "theft" at some point anyway, but to intentionally deceive through false information does not seem to be a "light side" perspective.

 

Thats right. It's tech intentional fraud )

i suspect that quest is a badly stitched together compilation of 2, it starts off being about exposing a corrupt official but then it transforms into a freedom of speech thing and he isnt doing anything corrupt he is just speaking his mind.

Well there are times when the dark/light side choices are like "***!?". I want my character at Light/Dark V so I go for the appropriate choices - And I can tell you for a fact that they were strange more than a few times.

 

(spoilers) Like that one time on my imp agent when it was the light side choice to hunt down a fleeing captive and kill him or turn him in for execution; And the dark side choice was letting him get away and benefit from his know-how? - *** BW!? (end spoilers)

 

I think the main problem is the fact that light side is usually "least possible violence and most true to biographical framework". So as an Imp Agent you end up with light side choices that vastly support the empire, which are in fact dark side choices since the empire acts like Nazi-Germany...

 

Sure, other class stories are less twisted and more clear cut, but playing a light side Imp Agent got me frowning quite a few times.

 

Val

I want my character at Light/Dark V so I go for the appropriate choices

 

You can get to Light or Dark V and still make choices that give you points for the other side. You don't need to pick 100% LS or DS options to get to LS/DS V.

So I am a Jedi Knight and dedicated to the light side. About level 11 I ran into a questgiver lady on Coruscant that asked me to steal a diplomatic pouch designated for a senator that was corrupt. I actually believe her story but as a Jedi I could not steal - simply could not bring myself to select that option. This means that there is a solid storyline and I am immersed in my character. Nice job Bioware - but I hated turning her down as I hate political corruption.

 

I struggled with the decisions in this quest as well.

What about smugglers? Light and dark side are not the same as legal and illegal. A light side smuggler is still a smuggler. Light and dark are supposed to be within the context of the character. Mine is a thief by nature. He isn't bad, he just doesn't have respect for the law. It's part of his nature. What makes him light or dark side is his motivation. Taking down corrupt leaders that hurt the people is what a light side smuggler would do and being illegal has nothing to do with the alignment of his actions.

i suspect that quest is a badly stitched together compilation of 2, it starts off being about exposing a corrupt official but then it transforms into a freedom of speech thing and he isnt doing anything corrupt he is just speaking his mind.

 

That's a decent theory. Because no matter how many times I play that quest it makes no damn sense whatsoever.

 

Questgiver: "This senator is trying to lie to his constituency; please help us procure evidence that will expose him, and allow the people of the Republic to make an informed vote. They should know what they're actually voting for when they vote, and finding these secret documents the senator is hiding will do that."

 

Security guy: "The people must be allowed to make their own informed choices! If you steal these documents you take that away from them! By taking them you obscure the truth and somehow make voters less empowered. Here, have this bunch of fake papers to give to your questgiver instead, which will somehow make the vote on this senator's secret project more fair."

 

It's not even the light side/dark side weirdness that bothers me, even though the alignment reward is blatantly wrong. It's the fact that the two conversations don't appear to be happening in the same universe. How does hiding the senator's dirty laundry promote the democratic process and the ability of the voters to freely choose whatever they actually agree with? What the bleeding blue bantha have I actually been asked to steal, and how does replacing it with agricultural papers benefit the public? It's just random nonsense. If it's actually a weird mad science monstrosity made of two quests smashed together... well it's still nonsense, but at least it's not random?

Edited October 23, 2012 by Quething

I found this a fascinating thread, and I wanted to add my input to it.

 

In both KOTOR games, you had light and dark side decisions. However, these were not inherently good/bad choices. They were exactly what they were named, light and dark decisions. The light side decisions promoted altruism, peace, serenity, respect for law, and equal treatment. The dark side decisions promoted selfishness, passion, victory at any cost, and personal strength. While a decision might be a "good" thing to do, it might still push you toward the dark side.

 

What we have in TOR is something a bit different. It's just the way things worked out. In The Old Republic, we do not have pure light side and dark side decisions. We have "nice" and "mean" decisions. Is your character a "nice" person? They'll probably make all the light side decisions. Let's take a few examples here.

 

The Mercy quest on Ord Mantell that a few others have mentioned. For those of you who haven't played a trooper or smuggler, here's a synopsis: Officer tells you someone stole medicine, you find refugee who stole it, she admits to it but tells you separatists took it. You can either return with the medicine to the officer to help dying soldiers, or you can give it to the refugee to help dying kids. Now, if you gave a five year old this decision, they would know instinctively that choice two was the "nice" choice. The poor children...we have to save them! Under the TOR light/dark system, we have light side points for the "nice" option (helping the poor sickly pitiful children that you can see), and dark side points for the "mean" option (doing your duty and giving the medicine back to the officer who will use it to help people you don't know). Under the KOTOR system, I think this would have been either a reversed decision or more likely a neutral one. While neither option is really correct (debatable), neither of them push you towards the dark side either.

 

The Politics of Dissent

This is the quest on Coruscant that started the whole thread. Another quick synopsis: Lady tells you to grab some documents from a senator proving he's corrupt, you get inside and a rather creepy looking senate page makes an impassioned plea regarding free speech, and begs you to give Miss Spirakris Zem outside some farming papers.

 

Now, as we all know, the light choice is to give her the farming documents. Some people object to this. However, it makes sense given the parameters above. You're all prepared to expose this senator for what he is. But wait! Free speech! And he's just trying to do what he thinks best! And sunshine! And rainbows! Oh, and here's some worthless paper.

 

I chose dark side. If you take what they both say and assemble it into a coherent story, it appears that you're only exposing earlier what the senator is about to say to the entire senate anyway: that he's a coward and a potential traitor. Under the old KOTOR system, this decision absolutely would have been reversed. There's no question that exposing the senator would have been light side in either KOTOR one or two. However, in TOR, exposing the documents would hurt the poor senator, and that would make you a mean person! You're a horrible member of the Republic! Plus to dark side!

 

Now, in other cases, light/dark decisions have nothing at all to do with your actual alignment or being nice or mean. For an Imperial Agent, for example, your light/dark decisions are really a measure of your loyalty to the empire. Generally light? Less loyal. Generally dark? More loyal and/or bloodthirsty.

 

So yes, in the end, I fault the developers for this system. Light and dark are not truly light and dark; they are a representation of the characters moral decisions rather than their force alignment.

Edited October 23, 2012 by Mirdthestrill

I found this a fascinating thread, and I wanted to add my input to it.

 

So yes, in the end, I fault the developers for this system. Light and dark are not truly light and dark; they are a representation of the characters moral decisions rather than their force alignment.

 

I don't wholly agree with your argument, but I do agree something's off with the Light/Dark in SWTOR. And it's... one of those things you misuse "ironic" for, IMO.

 

KoTOR had a pretty straightforward alignment system. You could be a compassionate self-sacrificing hero who fought to the world a better place, or a selfish sociopath who relished making it worse.

 

BioWare thought that was interesting, but not interesting enough; it works for Star Wars because Star Wars is, by nature, a pretty black-and-white universe (and EU writers who try to change that always end up causing problems), but they wanted to explore more complex moral standpoints. So in their next game, Jade Empire, they changed things up a bit, and made two alignments that didn't quite map to "good" and "evil." They went with "Open Palm" and "Closed Fist" instead, and both alignments could theoretically be heroic. It was simply a question of whether you give a man a fish, or teach him to fish; both are valid and helpful, and there are reasonable arguments in any given situation for why one is better for the starving dude. In the game after that, Mass Effect, they tried on a different set of alignments, "Paragon" and "Renegade," and that was mostly a question of whether you would do a bad thing today if you think it will prevent a worse thing tomorrow; again, either way you're clearly focused on minimizing the overall badness done.

 

Except... neither quite worked. It was like the writers kept forgetting they weren't writing Star Wars anymore, and kept coming up with choices that weren't two equally heroic options, but rather one that was heroic and one that was malicious. The big decisions they were generally pretty good about, but all four games were littered with mid-size and small decisions that simply boiled down to "be nice, or be an ******e," as though increasing the world's net badness was still on the table. It makes the alignment system often very confused and inelegant, and leads to heated fights on the Mass Effect forums over whether it's a useful or crappy game mechanic (or it used to, back when people talked about anything other than the terrible terrible ending).

 

Which makes it absolutely hilarious to me that, as I play through the SWTOR storylines, I keep thinking that these writers keep forgetting they're not writing Mass Effect anymore. Darkside Knights and Troopers aren't Sith and tyrants, they're dedicated soldiers who protect the Republic by any means necessary. Lightside Bounty Hunters aren't bastions of generosity and forgiveness, they're merciless killers with an honor code. I can't even start to count the number of LS/DS decisions I've made in this game that are actually "risk many to save a few" no-right-answer dilemmas or "what organization am I loyal to" litmus tests that bear no resemblance at all to the elemental Good and Evil of George Lucas' Force.

 

On the one hand, it makes for a more interesting game IMO, and I don't think it actually compromises the ~Star Wars~ feeling of the story at all, since you've still got very obvious and clear-cut good guys and bad guys that your PC has to navigate. On the other hand, it's sort of a shame they can't help cross-contaminating in both directions....

I personally wanted to cut the corrupt scum down when I discovered the proof of his actions. Why waste time on a justice system that may let the guilty walk.. yup.. I do this.. Punisher style!

 

How is it corrupt to introduce legislation for debate among duly appointed representatives in the Galactic Senate? Never mind your opinion of the cause. If that legislation passes by legitimate means, then that has to be respected. The Jedi philosophy is based in not using the power of the Force to subvert freedom of self-rule. That is the essential distinction between them and the Sith, who feel that power with the Force is a mandate to rule those not so gifted.

 

That is why it is the Light Side choice not to subvert the democratic process of the Senate, regardless of the legislation under consideration.