A lot of the problem, not the gear part, would be eliminated with an in game voice system. I've never had problems in LotRO.

 

That's probably been said before, but the biggest advantage is instant communication, because typing inc east into chat is just not possible to do without dying if two stealthers pop on you.

 

Ya, my Trooper was decently geared back in the day, is now very poorly geared compared to the War Hero folks, much less a premade group, so guess who I am never going to play in PvP again despite having had quite a bit of fun with him there in early 2012.

in RWZ good communication is everything. in regular warzones, when at best you have half the team working together, it means significantly less. i am hardly in vent/ts when i queue with people. it doesnt stop me from being able to predict what theyre gonna do cuz i have grown familiar with playing with them. pulling off ridiculous things without communication is always fun

 

as far as call outs go, you can alter a config file to be able to zoom waaaaaaaaay out. that way you can see incomings long before hand, unless their stealth. in which case being able to type fast comes in handy

 

also, anyone who has a keyboard/mouse with macro capability, maybe think about creating a macro that says "incoming eas/west/mid". that way you only have to hit one button to get out your important message.

 

 

but like you said, it doesnt matter how early or often you call out in chat. if your group members dont listen it doesnt matter. altho who is to say that if this game offered an in-game voip system that those same people would ignore that as well? you can lead a horse to water, but you cant make it drink

 

btw, bioware failing to include ingame voip is a party foul imo. even swg had in-game voip, altho it was really sucky.

 

 

You'd be surprised. If you're in voice chat and your buddy is guarding a node then he can tell you there's incoming and you can type it in chat while he fights which overall gives him a better chance of stalling them. Just one example. Plus it's more fun if you can just chat while killing people.

You'd be surprised. If you're in voice chat and your buddy is guarding a node then he can tell you there's incoming and you can type it in chat while he fights which overall gives him a better chance of stalling them. Just one example. Plus it's more fun if you can just chat while killing people.

 

Brilliant thing, we used this when the somebody is fighting.

Just did my 4 daily warzones. Every single one, was a full PUG up against at least one 3-man guild team or more. Usually the other side having multiple people with 18k health, and my side having people either with just 16k or less health, or absolutely no expertise. They were all just not fun.

 

 

I really enjoy SWTOR PVP. When it's evenly matched teams. But when it's not evenly matched, and you leap into battle only to get chained stunned and kill in 5 seconds. It's not fun one bit.

 

Bioware needs to get on the ball, and introduce better match-making. Actually matching skill vs skill, and premades vs premades.

 

agreed, i actually saw 6 sents/ gaurds & 2 scoundrels in one premade group against our pug. we got stomped badly, to make matters worse they kept rolling pugs for atleast one hour. this was a pain and a waste of my time getting 55 - 65 comms per match we need premades seperated from pugs BW.

Edited January 29, 2013 by DarthSabreth

so the whinners on this thread basically want people to NOT play with thier friends in a star wars large scale MMO

 

 

 

and fyi we arent in mumble/vent to "pwn the noobs with our sick stratz" , we do it to talk and have fun ,

and a premade of 2 is still a premade group, so most of you know its more fun to play with people

 

No but your guild does run SMASH premades every night,what's the matter cant mix it up some? whatcha scared of?

so the whinners on this thread basically want people to NOT play with thier friends in a star wars large scale MMO

 

 

 

and fyi we arent in mumble/vent to "pwn the noobs with our sick stratz" , we do it to talk and have fun ,

and a premade of 2 is still a premade group, so most of you know its more fun to play with people

 

Um, nobody posted that. Strawman much?

 

Hell, it's a large scale MMO, you shouldn't be sitting in your tiny little group the entire time. Get out there and socialize. Talk to new people, make new acquaintances. I get the feeling that for most of you, in the rare event that you are actually invited to a party, you just sit there with each other and are too scared to talk to anybody else.

 

Biofail isn't going to change anything so stop worrying. This is a PVE game, they'd rather lose their jobs than fix the PVP lol. And man they're doing a great job at that, they've lost what, 90% of their workforce? Haha, now that's determination. Nonsensical determination, but you have to be impressed with it.

 

Personally I'd rather save my job instead of getting fired for being inept. It's awfully hard to get a new job when you are known for screwing up your last one. The only exception is if you are at the elite highest levels, then you just fire and blame your inept employees and then get a new job and run another company into the ground.

 

At least that clown Georges is gone. I wish this new devs cared, it would be nice to get behind them and root for them to really get it all together and then make a great reputation for themselves. But they are completed insistent on just repeating what their predecessors did and not learning from anything. Much like this entire game, that refused to learn from other games. Love it!

Um, nobody posted that. Strawman much?

 

Hell, it's a large scale MMO, you shouldn't be sitting in your tiny little group the entire time. Get out there and socialize. Talk to new people, make new acquaintances. I get the feeling that for most of you, in the rare event that you are actually invited to a party, you just sit there with each other and are too scared to talk to anybody else.

 

actually, thats about 75% of the posts in this thread.

 

 

and what is the argument now? that premades need to go and find more friends to queue with? lawlwuuuuuuuut :confused::confused:

This is a big issue for alot of people... Alot of people do pvp.. Why dont bioware adress this issue?! Cmon bioware can you really afford to miss more subcribers?

honestly, does it matter if you are in a premade or not? It seems most PUG groups I'm facing are composed of at least 2 or 3 smashers per match now. I checked my logs and over the past 2 days, there were very few matches where smash/sweep did not do the most damage to my character.

 

In all honesty, the biggest thing premades bring to the table is having a good group makeup. voicecomms are helpful, but if you have a competent team, the chatbox is just as useful. The problem with PUGS is a lot of them are just bad anyway, as in they refuse to work WITH the group. If you get a PUG that actually all work toegether, you have a good chance at destroying a lot of the premades out there, which I've done on more than just a few occasions.

Just a reaction to the title and op:

 

There is so much bad playing people in warzones nowadays, that whenever I see a player that I can tell knows what he is doing, I'm adding him to my friends list and sometime invite him to group.

 

Is that a premade? Sure. But I'd rather limit my chances on a game with lots of frustration. My time is scarce and when I play I want maximum enjoyment.

So yeah, I premade, with guildies and friends who aren't in my guild. Not to roflstomp the opponent, but to have fun in this game. And that's the sole purpose of a game, to have fun.

 

It's not losing I mind. It's losing because of ending up in a team of complete idiots that makes me frustrated. And I don't want that.

 

Oh yeah, and I enjoy playing with friends. That too.

 

Make some friends, it will benefit you in lots of ways.

I have to agree with the OP.

 

Don´t get me wrong, premades should have their place, but not in unranked wz.

 

The cause of the problem sems to me that there are not many alternatives for high geared, high skilled pvp players who have enough time to play on a regular basis.

 

Arenas an Cross Server pvp (to make ranked wz more viable) are deperately needed. As is open world pvp.

 

I think there is a way to satisfy both the hardcore and the casual pvp players (i.e. those who can not play on a regular scheduel and tehrefore simply will not build a competent premade).

 

At the moment, both groups are loosing out.

I have to agree with the OP.

 

Don´t get me wrong, premades should have their place, but not in unranked wz.

 

The cause of the problem sems to me that there are not many alternatives for high geared, high skilled pvp players who have enough time to play on a regular basis.

 

Arenas an Cross Server pvp (to make ranked wz more viable) are deperately needed. As is open world pvp.

 

I think there is a way to satisfy both the hardcore and the casual pvp players (i.e. those who can not play on a regular scheduel and tehrefore simply will not build a competent premade).

 

At the moment, both groups are loosing out.

 

I agree, personally i would love to see a quable world pvp battle much like wintersgrasp in WOW that was fun. last weekend we had a few people return to the game as well as a birthday. to celebrate we all joined a ops group and qued up for rateds. welp..... after sitting in que for 2 hours while loitering in fleet with out 1 que pop we gve up and seperated and qued as a group of 4. we dont usually premade but wanted to celebrate and for 10 games we dominated the wzs.

 

I hate going up against premades myself and i have been very vocal in the forums about bw doing something about seperating the premades from the pugs. but i / we never intended to roll pugs, we wanted to group together as a guild to run rateds. but waiting in que for 2 hours with out one pop is unacceptable. We need cross server pvp ques like there is no tomorrow, we need other group activities such as queable world pvp events so that the puggers can get their gear and those that want to que as a group can go up against other groups. I really do not understand why BW does not want to think outside of the box with this issue.

Just a reaction to the title and op:

 

There is so much bad playing people in warzones nowadays, that whenever I see a player that I can tell knows what he is doing, I'm adding him to my friends list and sometime invite him to group.

 

Is that a premade? Sure. But I'd rather limit my chances on a game with lots of frustration. My time is scarce and when I play I want maximum enjoyment.

So yeah, I premade, with guildies and friends who aren't in my guild. Not to roflstomp the opponent, but to have fun in this game. And that's the sole purpose of a game, to have fun.

 

It's not losing I mind. It's losing because of ending up in a team of complete idiots that makes me frustrated. And I don't want that.

 

Oh yeah, and I enjoy playing with friends. That too.

 

Make some friends, it will benefit you in lots of ways.

 

 

I'll ask for the millionth time, why can't we have a PUG only option? You guys can still have your normal Warzones with your 4 man premades and people who want to do a few quick PvP matches for fun can use the PUG only option... It amazes me SO many "" Hardcore PvP'ers "" are opposed to this.... This tells me one thing they don't want to have a fair fight, they want the advantage and they want Bioware to force pug players to keep going against premades..

 

Sitting around the fleet trying to get random people in a premade is no different then joining the Que and getting put in with random people.... Oh you say well make some friends... So I'm suppose to wait on the fleet until my friends log in before I can do any PvP? that's your guys solution?

 

Be nice if a Dev from the PvP department would grow some balls and comment on this.....

Ever the hot-button topic. I do think we should have 3 queues (Ranked, group and solo).

 

If you really think that you're all big and bad, but only because your buddies are always covering you, then you really arent that pimp. Most of the classes I've tried have the ability to be exceptional if maximized properly. That means there really is no reason why a solo queue option shouldnt be available. And for the few classes that suffer at one time or another, their lack of attendance in a solo queue would be an easy-to-pull stat indicator for BW's balancing goals. It's much harder to poll for imbalance when an allstar plays a disadvantaged class successfully, but only because he has reliable help. Trust me, that allstar still knows his situation and would like it fixed also.

 

I personally feel that the solo queue is always the most challenging. It really forces you to refine techniques, gear, cooperation, skill charting and rotation. But that provides little benefit if you run across two guys of similar drive ganging up on you as your team's playmaker. I know a variety of skilled elitists with inflated heads, not because they really are "unbeatable", but because they're simply used to winning due to their group associations. Most of them are mistaken about their skill (barring the occasional exception), but there's rarely an opportunity to prove them wrong, not that you can really teach lessons to such obtuse cowards.

 

A truely "unbeatable" reputation is obtained by working with what you've got and running with it, on the fly. The only downside I can see to creating a 3rd queue is fewer queue pops. But it's quite possible that such a feature would actually increase the queue pool. There appears to be a lot of responders in this thread that have quit queueing because of the lack of said feature. And it could be resolved with cross-server queueing. It all seems like a win-win to me.

Edited January 30, 2013 by LordXayd

Take Game Genie (Ebon Hawk) for example.

Truely an exceptional group, but a group none-the-less.

 

When you oppose them, they protect their healers aggressively.

They give the huttball to the appropriate tank and maintain a good pass flow from ball spawn to in-zone.

They maintain a quality predefined player pair for capturing the introductory CW turret.

They have stealthing specialists to prevent CW mid-cap that waste your team's time very effectively.

They aggregate 3/5 or 4/4 splits in VS to maintain consistent pressure for the plant or defense.

They dont risk solo pylon grabs in AH, offering up potential kills points for the opposition.

In NC, only a few trusted allstars are allowed to break away and attempt the 3rd turret cap or distraction.

 

But even with all of that, what I see is effectively a raid invading the solo queue.

Most of us don't play that way, and so it's very hard to be effective against them.

 

So consequently, the only GG members that I respect are the ones that I can see have solo queued and don't quit out when they don't like what they see. I know several "elites" that are serial quitters because they don't want to work with recruits. And I'm not just talking about GG or pub guilds. That goes for all PvP primary guilds. Some of them are really bad about it and I call them out when I see them queue into a recruit group before they quit. I've never once seen a serial quitter drop out when they're proactively called out on it. So I know it means something to them.

 

So give us a solo queue, to separate the quitters and the cowards from those of us with spines and drive.

Edited January 30, 2013 by LordXayd

Take Game Genie (Ebon Hawk) for example.

Truely an exceptional group, but a group none-the-less.

 

When you oppose them, they protect their healers aggressively.

They give the huttball to the appropriate tank and maintain a good pass flow from ball spawn to in-zone.

They maintain a quality predefined player pair for capturing the introductory CW turret.

They have stealthing specialists to prevent CW mid-cap that waste your team's time very effectively.

They aggregate 3/5 or 4/4 splits in VS to maintain consistent pressure for the plant or defense.

They dont risk solo pylon grabs in AH, offering up potential kills points for the opposition.

In NC, only a few trusted allstars are allowed to break away and attempt the 3rd turret cap or distraction.

 

But even with all of that, what I see is effectively a raid invading the solo queue.

Most of us don't play that way, and so it's very hard to be effective against them.

 

So consequently, the only GG members that I respect are the ones that I can see have solo queued and don't quit out when they don't like what they see. I know several "elites" that are serial quitters because they don't want to work with recruits. And I'm not just talking about GG or pub guilds. That goes for all PvP primary guilds. Some of them are really bad about it and I call them out when I see them queue into a recruit group before they quit. I've never once seen a serial quitter drop out when they're proactively called out on it. So I know it means something to them.

 

So give us a solo queue, to separate the quitters and the cowards from those of us with spines and drive.

 

I'll be honest, all I got from this was, "I don't want to play with people who play objectively." Whether that was your intention or not, I don't know. The point I will make is that separating the queue does not resolve the issues that you bring up. Bads in the solo queue will still get overmatched by better players. Good players will still quit when they get bad teams in the group queue.

 

As BW has already said they are working on, matchmaking is the fix you are looking for. Separating the queues will lengthen potential waits for everyone involved, especially groups, and especially especially groups of 3. A group only queue is a logistical nightmare. Much better to put 1 or 2 good players who are queuing solo in with good groups than wait for an equally matched pair to enter the queue. If everyone in the match has a relative rating then the match should be fair, even if not everyone is grouped with someone else.

 

Then bads will play bads (regardless of grouping) and good players won't have to quit as often because their team is terrible. Problem solved.

 

*As a side note, I don't like quitting unless I have to leave for some type of RL deal, regardless of how bad we are doing. If you can't handle a loss then only queue rated. So we are in agreement on that.

prove to me that you know for sure that you are only playing with pugs. then ill care what any pug has to say. dont say guild tags because i run with friends from different guilds all the time. we win and are a premade, but you don't know. just maybe you had a premade, but a bad one. don't blame premades for your losses until you can prove that everytime you lose is because of premades.

I'll be honest, all I got from this was, "I don't want to play with people who play objectively." Whether that was your intention or not, I don't know. The point I will make is that separating the queue does not resolve the issues that you bring up. Bads in the solo queue will still get overmatched by better players. Good players will still quit when they get bad teams in the group queue.

 

As BW has already said they are working on, matchmaking is the fix you are looking for. Separating the queues will lengthen potential waits for everyone involved, especially groups, and especially especially groups of 3. A group only queue is a logistical nightmare. Much better to put 1 or 2 good players who are queuing solo in with good groups than wait for an equally matched pair to enter the queue. If everyone in the match has a relative rating then the match should be fair, even if not everyone is grouped with someone else.

 

Then bads will play bads (regardless of grouping) and good players won't have to quit as often because their team is terrible. Problem solved.

 

*As a side note, I don't like quitting unless I have to leave for some type of RL deal, regardless of how bad we are doing. If you can't handle a loss then only queue rated. So we are in agreement on that.

 

I only brought up GG's quality to illustrate how ineffective a pug is against them, which reduces the fun factor for anyone who's not hardcore, and I'm sure that's not something BW wants.

 

In regards to it not resolving the quitters problem, let me elaborate. I believe it will mitigate the issue. Don't you breathe a sigh of relief when you solo queue into a group with a quality premade, because you're worried about a premade on the other side? But if there were no premades, the gear distribution in a pop would be far more even, an aspect that you could effectively rely on from pop to pop. A quitter, knowing that there is no premade and with a statistically even distribution of gear and skill, is more likely to stay. Only quitting on the odd pop.

 

Now I wasn't thinking there should be 2v2, 3v3 and 4v4 queues (if that's what you meant). You're either grouped or you're not, but you do bring up a point about the 3v3. I guess you'd have to test it to see how effective it was. But is very possible that we'll get a larger pool if solo queueing was separated. And again, cross-server queueing would fix the wait issue. I know that's been done in other games.

This is a silly argument. Premades are a feature of Warzones that BioWare intentionally incorporated. If anyone actually understands how the system works, Warzones function in a way that if a premade queues for a Warzone, it will more than likely be placed against another premade on the opposing faction. You want to fight against premades ruining your experience? Make your own premade. What is actually "ruining" PvP if anything are the exuberant amounts of bad players who go into warzones not even wearing recruit gear and making their team lose. I don't even think you should be allowed to queue unless you at least have 1000 expertise.

prove to me that you know for sure that you are only playing with pugs. then ill care what any pug has to say. dont say guild tags because i run with friends from different guilds all the time. we win and are a premade, but you don't know. just maybe you had a premade, but a bad one. don't blame premades for your losses until you can prove that everytime you lose is because of premades.

 

If you're going to bring up every exception situation to attempt to win an argument, like this one circumstance nullifies the entire discussion, we'll never get anywhere. Yes, of course crossguild premades are semi-common, but less so than full guild premades because they're encouraged to assist one another. I only brought up a known tag to illustrate how a hardcore grouping dominates pugs, which is effectively not a balanced game technique. If you disagree with that, I dont know what else to say.

 

I've made a specialty of the solo queue, and consequently win more matches than I lose. But it is a point of obviousness that premades that refuse to solo queue for exactly the reason we're discussing imbalance the engagement. Again, if you think that's untrue, I dont know what else to say.

 

And blaming the premade is not the issue. It's the mechanic that's the problem. If you take a 4 RL hardcore friends with maximized gear and put them in a room with 4 random people of varying skill and equipment, text only communication and limited (at best) synergy, the result is all but certain. That is clearly imbalanced. So the solution is to require solo queueing or require group queueing. At it's most basic level, that's what qualities as fair.

 

In the end, I would like to see more people participating. But if they won't do it because they're tired of getting stomped during the gearing up and learning processes, and considering this is a game, that is a failure on BW's part and a loss to the community at large.

Edited January 30, 2013 by LordXayd

This is a silly argument. Premades are a feature of Warzones that BioWare intentionally incorporated. If anyone actually understands how the system works, Warzones function in a way that if a premade queues for a Warzone, it will more than likely be placed against another premade on the opposing faction. You want to fight against premades ruining your experience? Make your own premade. What is actually "ruining" PvP if anything are the exuberant amounts of bad players who go into warzones not even wearing recruit gear and making their team lose. I don't even think you should be allowed to queue unless you at least have 1000 expertise.

 

You know how hard it is to find game mechanic information for TOR, like anywhere? I mean supposedly, A 10K companion gives you 5% crit crafting chance, but we dont really know that for a fact. We only know what Dulfy's site tells us and how credible is that insider info? Not a single other site suggests that and it's certainly not reflected ingame. Do the ship droids and HK share that mechanic? You would assume so, but Dulfy doesnt even mention it. They are a different type of companion after all.

 

And yet, you know that the queue algorithm attempts to pair off groups? Do you have any evidence of that, or has it just been your experience? I don't your fault your experience of course. That's all we ever have to go on in this game.

 

Though, people who show up in PvE blue 50 gear rather than free recruit do aggravate me too. Everyone's got an opinion on the expertise thing. Seems rather obvious to me, especially since you can prove it numerically with the tool tips. I do agree a Black Hole healer has more output potential than a WH healer, but only if they're left alone to free-cast. Which of course you can't count upon.

You know how hard it is to find game mechanic information for TOR, like anywhere? I mean supposedly, A 10K companion gives you 5% crit crafting chance, but we dont really know that for a fact. We only know what Dulfy's site tells us and how credible is that insider info? Not a single other site suggests that and it's certainly not reflected ingame. Do the ship droids and HK share that mechanic? You would assume so, but Dulfy doesnt even mention it. They are a different type of companion after all.

 

And yet, you know that the queue algorithm attempts to pair off groups? Do you have any evidence of that, or has it just been your experience? I don't your fault your experience of course. That's all we ever have to go on in this game.

 

Though, people who show up in PvE blue 50 gear rather than free recruit do aggravate me too. Everyone's got an opinion on the expertise thing. Seems rather obvious to me, especially since you can prove it numerically with the tool tips. I do agree a Black Hole healer has more output potential than a WH healer, but only if they're left alone to free-cast. Which of course you can't count upon.

 

Actually yes. I can't remember which developer said it and when (I think it was Damion Schubert), but in one of their Q&As or interviews, they explained how the queue system for Warzones work. The system places premades against other premades if it can. Anyone in a premade should be able to confirm that more often than not they are going against a premade on the opposing team.

 

Obviously this isn't a perfect science as sometimes there aren't other premades, or there aren't enough players, etc. The point is the system is in place and the queue system tries to even out the playing field. Regardless, premades aren't some sort of exploit or something only the select few can do. Everyone can do them. Make friends. Build groups. You are much more likely to succeed in a warzone with a group than by yourself.

I'll ask for the millionth time, why can't we have a PUG only option? You guys can still have your normal Warzones with your 4 man premades and people who want to do a few quick PvP matches for fun can use the PUG only option... It amazes me SO many "" Hardcore PvP'ers "" are opposed to this.... This tells me one thing they don't want to have a fair fight, they want the advantage and they want Bioware to force pug players to keep going against premades..

 

Sitting around the fleet trying to get random people in a premade is no different then joining the Que and getting put in with random people.... Oh you say well make some friends... So I'm suppose to wait on the fleet until my friends log in before I can do any PvP? that's your guys solution?

 

Be nice if a Dev from the PvP department would grow some balls and comment on this.....

 

They don't want solo queue only because then they can't faceroll pugs. They disguise it with they "like the teamwork and "challenge" of using a premade." Lol

you cant create 2 separate queue b/c this game does not have the population to sustain them.

 

within a week, you would see people gaming the PUG queue to get in with their friends. it would literally be the same exact thing all over, people whining about premades in the PUG queue.

 

 

for like the millionth time: if you want to separate bad PUGs from decent (or better) premades, you need real skill-based matchmaking. that is the only thing that will actually work to separate the bads from the goods. and even then, i dont think that individual servers have the population to sustain something like that. you need x-server queuing, which is a massive long-shot with this game.

They don't want solo queue only because then they can't faceroll pugs. They disguise it with they "like the teamwork and "challenge" of using a premade." Lol

 

They also like to insist that a solo queue wouldn't help at all and the population is too small to support two queues (see above, also read: most people solo queue).

 

That former comment cracks me up every time. The reason not to do something is it would take more effort to do something that people are complaining about in the first place. That's just brilliant. Maintain the status quo because someone claims a change wouldn't work so that they can keep doing what they're doing.

 

And if the group population is too small, then Biofail shouldn't be catering to them. They can nut up and solo queue or they can sit there and wait until someone else wants to play a group game. Only a dev team intent on sabotaging a game would drive away 90% of their subscriber base to pander to 10%. That is not sound game development or business sense.

 

F2P is giving this game a new set of eyes and a second chance. Biofail is the very definition of insanity to insist on repeating these same errors.

 

This game is going to die for good within 3-4 months, when most of the newer player base caps at 50 and tries out PVP, and realizes they hate it. The reason they lost all those subs to begin with is because there was nothing to do after capping, PVP was extremely popular, and then this dev team made sure to gut it and create these dumb imbalances. They literally lost 50% of their sub base after the retarded 1.2 balance changes when something like 50% of the player base was rolling Sorc/Sage and Merc/Commando. They then continued to bleed more and more subs as they continued to ignore their awful balance changes, PVP mechanic changes and premade vs PUG complaints (they are not new, they've been there the entire time).

 

I just hope before it dies for good they give us an offline/lan/private server option to play with. It's a good PVE game, just nobody really thinks it is worth $150-180 a year for it.