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Same gender relationships clarifications?


elexier

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I know no one wants to hear to be patient, but I honestly do think that's the course of action that makes the most sense.

 

Its the only course of action we have, I'll give you that. Obviously nothing we say or do is going to impress Bioware. Personally, even if they add this content tomorrow I doubt it would be enough to placate me or keep me subscribed at this point. They've brewed too much bad blood.

 

The fact this content wasn't there from day 1 is in and of itself inexcusable. The fact they've back-burner'ed it for a year and half only makes it worse. Their treatment (or lack there of) the issue really pushes it over the top for me.

 

The game is a nice diversion for me here for a few weeks while I take a break from GW2 but with the breathtakingly inept way they have handled this for a company that has spent years building a reputation of inclusion I can't see anything they could do that they will do that would make me forgive and forget.

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First Slagin, thank you for your apology. Passions can override anyone, especially when it comes to gamers and this content. :)

 

Its the only course of action we have, I'll give you that. Obviously nothing we say or do is going to impress Bioware. Personally, even if they add this content tomorrow I doubt it would be enough to placate me or keep me subscribed at this point. They've brewed too much bad blood.

 

The fact this content wasn't there from day 1 is in and of itself inexcusable. The fact they've back-burner'ed it for a year and half only makes it worse. Their treatment (or lack there of) the issue really pushes it over the top for me.

 

The game is a nice diversion for me here for a few weeks while I take a break from GW2 but with the breathtakingly inept way they have handled this for a company that has spent years building a reputation of inclusion I can't see anything they could do that they will do that would make me forgive and forget.

 

And therein lies the rub.

 

It's not just that they are being silent now.

 

It's not just the boilerplate answer that mods gave us for over a year regarding this. I am referring to the statement by Stephen Reid last September. Seriously, we sang happy birthday to it in the thread before Joveth came in and said a word. To us. In the privacy of our special corner. :(

 

It's not just that they didn't include the content from the get-go and didn't even offer it in Beta.

 

It's not just that they allowed assumptions about this content already being in the game being published by gaming sites.

 

It's not just the deleted Tweet.

 

It's not just former employees leaving and no one being public about bringing the content to the table since.

 

It's all of it at this point.

 

I'm not the type to say I'm going to boycott a company. Who knows; they might have games I really want down the line. However, I too have moved past the point of forgive and forget. And just like Nozy, even if they included this on the very next patch, I'd still want this weird silence addressed. Heck, even acknowledged the silence at all. I don't want the company or the game to fail, but I do think they need to own up to at the very least over 8 months of non communication since the Guild Summit.

 

To anyone that works for EA/BW, that might have a say so....if they read the thread...

 

Please ask The Powers That Be to let you speak. Just say, "Along with the new romance content, SGRs will be coming to The Old Republic! No ETA as of yet, but we apologize if any our silence caused any confusion."

 

I know, fat chance that any that has control over the flow of info reads this, but a Jedi always has to maintain hope. So does a good hearted sniper when you get down to it. ;)

 

That would be a start. I will say I don't think it'll be enough. People really are done trying to play it their way, but the effort would be recognized to an extent.

 

But dang it EA/BW, at least try!!!

Edited by natashina
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You know what could be a fun, harmless way to show our continued anticipation of this content and disappointment in the silence? Peaceful, fun, in game, event like demonstrations.

 

Remember when City of Heroes shut down, and they had events to show support for the game? Not that those worked, but events like that always grab more media attention than the issues themselves.

 

We could have players with all the available lightsaber colors form rainbows, have players dress in a color chosen to represent the cause, and just generally sit around and have a peaceful demonstration. It would be a good thing for people to get together in game like that, and it would also cause onlookers to question what is going on, and raise awareness.

 

We could do something like this on every day a patch is released with no new information on SGRAs.

 

I'm not sure of it's effectiveness, but it would be something at least. I can't imagine BioWare trying to shut something like that down, it would look really bad for them.

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I'm not sure of it's effectiveness, but it would be something at least. I can't imagine BioWare trying to shut something like that down, it would look really bad for them.

 

Honestly something like that might have worked back in beta when there was a large community of folks that wanted this content. Of course most of those left before the game even went live though after it was made clear this content wasn't being added for launch. Out of the remaining folks I would guess most left around the time of the Guild Summit like I did.

 

Seems like only the die-hards and eternal optimists have stayed around this long with the occasional returning player like me. I don't know that we'd even get a big enough turn out for it to make an impression. Sadly BW did a pretty good job of killing off this section of the community.

 

That said, I'd support anything someone puts together.

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Honestly something like that might have worked back in beta when there was a large community of folks that wanted this content. Of course most of those left before the game even went live though after it was made clear this content wasn't being added for launch. Out of the remaining folks I would guess most left around the time of the Guild Summit like I did.

 

Seems like only the die-hards and eternal optimists have stayed around this long with the occasional returning player like me. I don't know that we'd even get a big enough turn out for it to make an impression. Sadly BW did a pretty good job of killing off this section of the community.

 

That said, I'd support anything someone puts together.

 

I think it would all be about getting the word out. If all we did was talk about it here, I think you're right. But if we contacted LGBT friendly guild officers to ask them to spread the word to their guilds, I think we could see a decent turn out.

 

A demonstration need not be comprised only of people who are personally invested in seeing this content. I'm sure there are plenty of people who don't have a personal stake in it that would lend their support to the principle.

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Honestly something like that might have worked back in beta when there was a large community of folks that wanted this content. Of course most of those left before the game even went live though after it was made clear this content wasn't being added for launch. Out of the remaining folks I would guess most left around the time of the Guild Summit like I did.

 

Amusingly enough, I left about a week and a half after the Guild Summit. A lot of it was MMO burn out, but part of it was also the handling of SGRs. I got discouraged; I didn't want to raid and I wasn't up for an alt. So I left.

 

I came back about a week before my birthday in September because I caught the bug for this game again. I'm having a lot of fun with my sniper now, but this current situation is very disheartening.

Edited by natashina
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I needed a laugh, so I went digging for a gem from a few months back.

 

 

♪♫ *cues music from Gilber & Sullivan's Mikado* ♪♫

 

Three little Sith from school are we

Strong in the dark side as can be

Filled to the brim with Sithish glee

Three little sith from school

 

Everything is a loaded gun

No one is safe for we care for none

Live is a war that has just begun

Three little sith from school

 

(Chorus)

Three little Sith who, dark and scary

Come from a dark side seminary

Freed from its genius tutelary

Three little Sith from school

Three little Sith from school

 

One little Sith likes Exar Kun

Two little Sith think EU is dumb

Three little Sith, that's the total sum

Three little Sith from school

 

From three little Sith pick one to slay

Two little sith remain, and they

Won't remain friends very long, they say

Three little Sith from school

 

(Chorus)

Three little Sith who, dark and scary

Come from a dark side seminary

Freed from its genius tutelary

Three little Sith from school

Three little Sith from school!

 

I'll let you decide if it's a re-run or a "best of", the thread's been running long enough for both.

Edited by Palar
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Bioware and EA are fairly famous in the gaming industry for being inclusive of LGBT persons and for making content geared toward them. When Star Wars: The Old Republic (SWTOR) launched, there was a rather public campaign by anti-LGBT groups to prevent the inclusion of same-sex romances in SWTOR - this was shot down by EA, who stated that they include LGBT content regardless of criticism.

 

However, during the Beta of SWTOR it was stated that there were "no gays in Star Wars" - a comment that was quickly removed and replaced with a general statement of intention to include same-sex content into SWTOR post-launch because Bioware realised that they have(had) a large LGBT fanbase. The latter comments were made by Stephen Reid, previous Community Manager (since replaced by Joveth Gonzalez).

 

In March of 2012, Daniel Erickson, a story writer, stated that same-sex content would be coming to SWTOR with other story content and that said story content would be introduced "this year" (assumed to be referring to 2012). This statement came only after months of pressure for post-launch statement, as Stephen Reid's comments had been removed with the removal of the beta forums, and equal months of silence.

 

Since Mr. Erickson's comments in March and despite constant questions of the whether or not the same-sex content is going to introduced into SWTOR, Bioware has not addressed the community in any manner. Yes, Mr. Gonzalez did post in the 'official' thread: http://www.swtor.com/community/showpost.php?p=5130639&postcount=1164, but this was no statement, did not address any actual questions (that is, if Mr. Erickson's comments were still valid) and has been the entirety of Bioware's engagement on this subject, as Mr. Erickson's comments from the Guild Summit were never transcribed in any official capacity to the SWTOR website.

 

I contact you on this matter because we are nearing the one year anniversary of SWTOR's release. It is disheartening that two companies who claim to be so inclusive have made the decision to not engage with their fanbase on this matter in any meaningful way and did, at some point during development, decide that LGBT persons should not be represented in one of their biggest endeavours.

 

In the thread linked we have discussed the trials of development post-launch and the affects of the move to Free2Play on post-launch development and how that might have hindered the actual recording and coding of same-sex content, but none of us have felt that that justifies Bioware's increasingly noticeable silence. This is particularly becoming a sore point as recently the "Hood Toggle" crowd (those who want to be able to switch between having their Jedi robe hoods up or down) were given an idea of the particular problems with coding and implementing hood toggles.

 

Thank you for your time and consideration and I apologise if the topic seems tedious.

 

I just sent that to the PA Report. I have no idea if anything will happen because of it, but it's worth a shot.

 

P.S. I love the fact that no one at Bioware reads this thread, means we can discuss stuff like this (^) without having to worry about the mods getting all uppity.

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I think the primary reason to take action is to start a dialogue. If there had been a dialogue I don't think many of us would have been quite as upset. I wouldn't have liked the exclusion of SGRs, but at least we'd be talking about it. At this time, there's none of that. And we've been put in quarantine and are ignored. A dialogue will be a start. Unfortunately we've not been able to start one here, the next step is calling in life lines. GLAAD would be very well suited to start a dialogue with EA.

 

We have questions, and they are important to this community. If this has been put on the back burner than I think we should know. It's rather discourteous to keep us in the dark this way.

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I don't know much about GLAAD, Fabiyun, but they do have a contact page and a separate page for reporting defamation. I don't think this qualifies as defamation (unless erasure/denial is defamation?), but you did say they were initially interested in SWTOR and SGRA's.

 

I guess I'm trying to say I would contact them, but that it might be better if an actual LGBT person did so first...

Edited by Tatile
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I don't know much about GLAAD, Fabiyun, but they do have a contact page and a separate page for reporting defamation. I don't think this qualifies as defamation (unless erasure/denial is defamation?), but you did say they were initially interested in SWTOR and SGRA's.

 

I guess I'm trying to say I would contact them, but that it might be better if an actual LGBT person did so first...

 

JC said he'd contact some peeps working at GLAAD. They sent me an email last year when I reported SWTOR. They'd said they received several complaints and would look into it. BW did come with a statement after that, and that at that time was the end of it. But we're a year on now, so updating them would be good.

 

As for defamation. Exclusion and invisibility fall in that category. GLAAD deals with LGBTQ representation in media. They've had campaigns to promote LGBTQ visibility and have a watch list of representation in media, including yearly awards. They're a great organisation, I wish we had something similar here in Europe, because I do believe GLAAD is the driving force after much better representation in US media.

 

Anyone who's concerned can contact them though. Parents and family are also parties who often report defamation.

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If GLAAD's taken action against Bioware before, then they might be very interested to see how that has progressed (or rather, hasn't).

 

Do you have any links to their previous articles on Bioware/SWTOR so that I know what I'm referencing?

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If GLAAD's taken action against Bioware before, then they might be very interested to see how that has progressed (or rather, hasn't).

 

Do you have any links to their previous articles on Bioware/SWTOR so that I know what I'm referencing?

 

I don't know if they took action. The only thing I know is that they wrote me back and showed concern. I'm also sure they read the forums at that time. After the BW statement they published this http://www.glaad.org/blog/star-wars-video-game-developer-adding-same-sex-romance-options-following-fan-outcry

I do think they have made contact, but I have no way to be sure of that.

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I'm just really disappointed right now because a huge part of me want to stay true to her word and cancel my sub at the end of the year now. but damnit, I love this game. it's just that now EVERY TIME I have a companion trigger I will be reminded that something that should have been here a year ago is .not.
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Hrm, thanks for the link Fabiyun. I think I'll wait until JC comes back with any results. It may sound strange considering my previous bravado, but it doesn't seem proper for me to be contacting them.

 

It's kind of like... well... It's an LGBT issues, and LGBT group and I don't want to look like one of those annoying-as-all-hell supposed "allies" who expect a cookie and a pat on the back for saying "gays are people too!"

 

My boundaries, they are undefined.

 

Edit: Also, "holiday 2011"? What does that mean, which holiday? Easter?

Edited by Tatile
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Hrm, thanks for the link Fabiyun. I think I'll wait until JC comes back with any results. It may sound strange considering my previous bravado, but it doesn't seem proper for me to be contacting them.

 

It's kind of like... well... It's an LGBT issues, and LGBT group and I don't want to look like one of those annoying-as-all-hell supposed "allies" who expect a cookie and a pat on the back for saying "gays are people too!"

 

My boundaries, they are undefined.

 

Edit: Also, "holiday 2011"? What does that mean, which holiday? Easter?

 

it's not an lgbt-issue, though.

 

it's an issue of promisses not being kept, it's an issue of people not being aware of problems. it's an issue of 'injustice' finding its way into video games.

 

could you imagine playing this game if you could only play male characters?

could you imagine playing this game if you could only play white characters?

 

I can assure you the vast majority of the players IS male and white, but gosh darnit I hope there would be a .huge. uproar if those were the only choices.

 

 

maybe it's because i'm Germany and I get paranoid about these things, but it's the little things that count and I do indeed think 'first they came for the jews and I didn't say anything because I wasn't jewish' instantly, especially when I hear people say 'there are more important things in this game than sga'

 

****, there isn't. I am definitely at the point where I say NO THERE IS NOTHING MORE IMPORTANT. this is no longer a matter of 'content'. actually, it never was.

Edited by amnie
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I messaged them about our issue:

 

Many months and maybe even possibly years ago I contacted you concerning BiOWare's Massively Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Game, Star Wars: The Old Republic and it's lack of inclusion of Same Gender Romance Arcs with companions, despite Opposite Gender Romance releasing with the game's launch. As you may know BiOWare is renowned in the LGBT Gamer community for it's LGBT inclusiveness in the Mass Effect and Dragon Age series, along with other assorted titles in Knights of the Old Republic and Jade Empire.

 

Fortunately before the launch of Star Wars: The Old Republic, BiOWare's ex-developer Stephen Reid made the statement that SGRAs would be a 'Post-launch' feature, SWTOR launched coming on a year ago.

 

Further developing the issue is that another Ex-dev in Daniel Erickson made a statement at the 'Guild Summit' back in March that we would see Same Gender Romances along side new story content 'this year'.

 

Since then, no official statement has been made and BiOWare have revealed that the next patch is about Player vs Player content, this will be the last patch of the year, nothing to do with the Same Gender Romances feature, they also announced that the next patch wouldn't be till nine weeks after the christmas holidays via Developer Jeff Rickman.

 

When asked repeatedly non-stop by many LGBT gamers what the status of the 'Makeb'(The next development of story content) patch was, they claimed it is still coming, but later next year, but they didn't reveal anything about Same Gender Romances and if it was still on-track or even involved with it.

 

The only word a BiOWare employee has made on the subject(Which they have hidden as well as they can in the SWTOR.com forums due to massive 'flaming and trolling' incidents from other users.) was from the Lead PvP Designer Gabe Amantangelo, where he said he 'thinks' the SGRA feature will be with Makeb, when the Lead Writer Hall Hood was asked on Twitter for confirmation on this he stated that SGRAs are confirmed to be in Makeb. The following morning Hood's tweet was removed and nothing at all has been said about it since.

 

This was months ago, the company has made no statements or even referenced the content among every other feature the game is going to introduce along the way.

 

This silence has upset many players of the game, including me and very dedicated LGBT and Straight BiOWare and Star Wars fans, we have no voice any more, we have basically lost the hope and will for BiOWare's renowned inclusiveness to carry on in this game and we as an LGBT section of players in Star Wars: The Old Republic's community request Glaad's help in finding some answers, this might not be nearly as important to the other issues the LGBT community faces, but to gamers, it's something that makes us feel like we belong in these wonderful worlds and universes, anything you can do for us and any contact you could make on our behalf would make our year and restore our hope.

 

Love, the LGBT community of Star Wars: The Old Republic.

 

I hope that does something at least.

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Date of Incident: 17/01/2012 - ongoing (*start of this thread)

Location: Star Wars: The Old Republic Official Forums

 

Though Bioware have indeed previously stated that there is indeed intention to bring same-sex content to Star Wars: The Old Republic, I believe that I should be brought to general attention just how Bioware have handled the discussion of the content, or rather, not handled it. Until very recently (25th September, to be exact) all mention or discussion of same-sex content was immediately redirected to the above linked thread. This redirection was done so under site moderation rules that call for duplicate threads to be closed and redirected as necessary, but curiously this rule was only ever really applied to discussion of same-sex content (and still is, with one notable exception). Bioware, after much pressing and one user reporting the moderation team for homophobic harassment, said that they were applying the rule more strictly to the discussion of same-sex content for the protection of those who wish to discuss it.

 

Now, this might be understandable if our discussion topic (linked above) were in one of the more heavy traffic boards, like General Discussion or Community. It is, however, not in a heavy traffic board. The discussion of same-sex content is relegated to the Story and Lore sub-forum, which, rather unsurprisingly, is for the discussion of in-game story aspects, something which our discussion is only relevant to in a round-about way.

 

As to how Bioware have engaged with the community on same-sex content, it is very simple to say that they have not. From January until March of 2012, each weekly Question and Answer session, in which questions posed by the community were answered by developers, the question of the inclusion of same-sex content was asked. It was never addressed. During March 2012, the Guild Summit was held. This was a live Q&A session, in front of a live audience asking questions and was also broadcasted, live, over the internet. It was only when Daniel Erickson was asked during the Guild Summit Q&A - and was therefore unable to dodge the question - about same-sex content were the community given a rough estimate of "this year" (presumed to be 2012). Interestingly, however, Mr. Erickson did explicitly state that same-sex content would be "this year", but rather said that same-sex content would be bundled with other story content.

 

From March then on, we asked for clarification of Mr. Erickson's comment (never transcribed to the official site, mind) and were ignored.

 

After Mr. Erickson left Bioware and was replaced with Mr. Hall Hood as Lead Writer, we asked if Mr. Erickson's comments were still valid. We have been ignored on this.

 

We have asked if the sudden and fast more to Free2Play has affected the development of same-sex romance content. We have been ignored.

 

We have asked if there is still intention to bring same-sex content to Star Wars: The Old Republic, at ant point, in any capacity, as the end of the year draws ever closer. We have been ignored.

 

At no time has Bioware ever voluntarily acknowledged the existence of same-sex content, the existence of their LGBT fanbase or the existence of the discussion topic linked above. Bioware has only ever given the most piecemeal information after enormous amounts of pressure.

 

During the Q&A session for Mr. Hood, the Lead Writer, questions about same-sex content made up 25% of the total questions in the thread. They were ignored.

 

During the latest Q&A Livestream session with Mr. Schubert and Mr. Hickman, many members asked up same-sex content and we were ignored. It has even been pointed out that Mr. Hickman appeared to be laughing at the players he was answering.

 

Many players, myself included, are tired of asking the same questions week after week and being ignored. Bioware claim to be an LGBT friendly organisation and producer, but their handling of same-sex content in Star Wars: The Old Republic seems to very much put that in doubt.

 

Thank you for your time.

 

~

 

How's that? I've not sent it yet, please let me know if it needs work.

 

Edit: Whoo! Rayla! *fist bump* :D

Edited by Tatile
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why is everyone so obsessed with SGR?i mean come on the absence of it is not game breaking and there are many more important things to do first,this takes lots of work and voice acting,it's not a one day job so if you really want it you know that you have to wait for more important things.
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why is everyone so obsessed with SGR?i mean come on the absence of it is not game breaking and there are many more important things to do first,this takes lots of work and voice acting,it's not a one day job so if you really want it you know that you have to wait for more important things.

 

Why would people want to see themselves be represented in an entertainment medium and also be able to make choices to enjoy the game they want to play?

 

Gosh, I don't know why :rolleyes:

 

We've had the discussion over development time. Don't think that any of us here are under any illusions as to how long the content takes.

 

But I know why you're really here. Go rain on the SSSP people, at least they have information.

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I'll simply say this.

 

If it was scrapped, then even the off handed comment from the PvP developer would not have happened. The fact that he knew it was done and just getting onto the schedule means that they completed it. Writing, animation, VAs and editing have already been completed.

 

Links or it didn't happen, right? Well, here's the link to the video:

 

Edit: adding the fixed link:

 

 

If someone thinks we have better things to do, then I don't know why they post telling us that. I certainly wouldn't go into the SSP thread and tell them to stop asking for information.

 

I'm not feeling well and I have an emergency trip the dentist, so I'm going to be very blunt.

<----- There's the exit. If you come in here just to troll, or tell us we've wasting our time, don't let it hit you on the rear on your way out.

 

*best Samuel Jackson voice* Common courtesy, do you speak it?!?

 

Having a sore and infected tooth is not good for a Jedi's patience.

 

I've got the heart of a Jedi and the passions of a Sith. Guess which is dominate right now? :cool:

 

Edit: I'm waiting for JC to get back to us, then probably start my own letter to GLAAD. I'm sick and tired of BW/EA talking about how "inclusive" they are with SGR content in other games and allow the assumption that it was already in ToR onto other sites. I feel really used right now and they deserve every bit of pressure that this is going to put on them.

 

Edit #2: Boy, if a moderator actually reads this thread, they might want to talk to their bosses. I doubt if they read this though, so it'll probably blindside them. And they'll be wondering, "What, what did we do wrong?" :rolleyes:

 

Edit #3: I see no problem with the "straight but not narrow," supporters writing to GLAAD. You don't have to be LGBTQ in order to write in your concerns. From what I've noticed, the straight but not narrow group is more than welcome. Plus, we are all human beings, adults and gamers. Everyone should have the right to write to whomever they can to end this stupid game of silence.

Edited by natashina
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Nothing wrong with being passionate about compassion, Natashina. I've sent my message to GLAAD (used my real name! :eek: Figured I'd put my money where my... fingers... are). Maybe they'll notice if they receive a few messages about the subject, maybe not, but still I feel a little bit better for the fact we're reaching out.
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Edit:

If it was scrapped, then even the off handed comment from the PvP developer would not have happened. The fact that he knew it was done and just getting onto the schedule means that they completed it. Writing, animation, VAs and editing have already been completed.

 

Links or it didn't happen, right? Well, here's the link to the video:

 

Gabe's comment.

 

First, link takes me to "Video does not exist" lol. :p

 

Second, we really have no idea what schedule he was referring to. Did he mean the release schedule? Maybe. Of course he might have been talking about the design schedule, in which case they haven't so much as even talked about it internally yet. Unfortunately we have no idea because *drumroll* BW won't talk about it. :o

 

 

Edit #2: Boy, if a moderator actually reads this thread, they might want to talk to their bosses. I doubt if they read this though, so it'll probably blindside them. And they'll be wondering, "What, what did we do wrong?" :rolleyes:

 

I doubt anyone views this thread unless posts get reported for trolling/harassment.

 

Edit #3: I see no problem with the "straight but not narrow," supporters writing to GLAAD. You don't have to be LGBTQ in order to write in your concerns. From what I've noticed, the straight but not narrow group is more than welcome. Plus, we are all human beings, adults and gamers. Everyone should have the right to write to whomever they can to end this stupid game of silence.

 

Agreed, anyone with an interest in this might as well join the band wagon. Having more people speaking up about it might impress the displeasure we have more forcefully.

Edited by Nozybidaj
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Bioware claim to be an LGBT friendly organisation and producer, but their handling of same-sex content in Star Wars: The Old Republic seems to very much put that in doubt.

 

Maybe I'm splitting hairs here, but The Bioware - Edmonton Team very much is a GLBT friendly developer. Bioware - Austin which is a completely separate entity though is clearly not. I don't know if that is an important distinction to make or not, probably too granular for the purposes of raising a complaint with GLAAD. Still I draw that distinction for myself.

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Maybe I'm splitting hairs here, but The Bioware - Edmonton Team very much is a GLBT friendly developer. Bioware - Austin which is a completely separate entity though is clearly not. I don't know if that is an important distinction to make or not, probably too granular for the purposes of raising a complaint with GLAAD. Still I draw that distinction for myself.

 

They're representative of Bioware, whether they like it or not.

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