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Premades are ruining non-ranked warzones


Monoth

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No, people are saying you can play as you like, but you -have- to understand choosing solo queue is putting less effort into PvP then forming a team and coordinating. If someone beats you, it's because their better. Simple concept.

 

Now if you want a solo only bracket so you're facing weaker competition (and thus less effort) then your rewards need to be lesser.

 

OR, as DarthRakia has said (and I agree) you should focus on asking for a better match making system within the current, fully inclusive queue system.

 

You really belive that a PUG vs a PUG group takes less efforet then a premade vs a PUG? or a PREmade vs a Premade. That made me laugh. first we all know a premade vs a PUG the PUG group will win around 1 out of 25ish times going by all that people post and going off my own experience. So obviously there if your in a PUG it actually takes more effort to win a game and get 130 coms, because with no effort you walk away with what 50? So yeah PUG's do have to fight harder and there is deffinately more of a challenge in playing on a team like I had tonight with 6 Mercs and no healers VS a premade group that had 2 healers. Funny thing is we won and if you think it was just a cake walk well it wasn't. The random group you get stuck with most often times is one of the roughest groups the que could put together. So in that instance to say PUGs are easy street you are wrong.

 

PUG vs PUG (which most the people want a real "solo" que for) you never know what will happen. sometimes you get what you need sometimes you don't sometimes it's close sometimes it's a blow it. PUG VS PUG is like playing russian rulette. You get a sh***y group and then that one guy that belongs on everyone ignore list leaves because he doesn't like what he gets. You know what 7 craptastic classes mixed together vs 8 that could be good or bad is still a fight the team that loses is the one that can't communicate. If you think comunicating and trying to get your idea through to someone on a different page is hard look at the forums and with a straight face tell me PUGs are so much easier to get get what you need then joinging up with the same people for a few hours everyday playing the same 4 WZ's. At some point you are all going to be on the same page knowing what each other is going to do without having to say it. It's either that or be one of the worst premade groups ever.

 

Then you have the Premades VS the Premades. Such a scary concept for most it appears having to actually play against people that are in WH gear just like you. The real reason ranked failed, why do rank when you can go in and spank a bunch of people that have recruit gear on and get your 130 comms vs having a chance of it happening to you and only getting 50? The challenge that the PUGs are dying to have, where they can go into a game and not know what to expect, Is the other team going to be better, the same or worse? Rather then ROFLstomped. All the PVP guilds and a lot of the premade groups are looking for that speciffic class, the guy with the right gear or whatever, yet they demand that those players that are lesser "form your own groups." That would basicly be a step up from a pug but a step down from a WH group that has been working together for months, you would still stomp the crap out of them. But like I said people complain about how boring it is to keep killing all the baddies in PUG's yet for some reason most of them are against Premades VS Premades. So maybe you can answer that question for me. If crushing the PUGs is so boring and just sucks then why are all the "Elites" so afraid of playing against other "Elites"?

Edited by Muramxx
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The concept it's simple really. How the hell it eludes you guys baffles me. Don't let Ferrari compete against Fiat. This is not about effort put in it's about paying same amount of money and expecting same amount of fun. I'm not working for BW so they evaluate my work and compensate me accordingly. Actually BW gets more value out of its casual costumers if you want to talk money. I'm the costumer and I pay for a product that promises to deliver entertainment. If the exchange it's not mutually beneficial then we have a problem, well the seller has a problem.

Get over yourself cause this is not about you or me or your pre-made vs my PuG, it's about fun, enjoyment and balance. Achieve those and a s***load of problems will just disappear.

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Starcraft2 has a good ranking system; you play a few tester matches and then get put into a league. You can then migrate up or down leagues from there depending on your actual skill levels.

 

Hint hint, bw!

Edited by Ycoga
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Starcraft2 has a good ranking system; you play a few tester matches and then get put into a league. You can then migrate up or down leagues from there depending on your actual skill levels.

 

Hint hint, bw!

 

how would you account skill in SWTOR? between tanks, healers and dps?

smashers and stealth ninja cappers?

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In essense, isn't a split queue designed to lower the effort a PuG must put in to win?

 

Pugs Vs pugs demands much more of each player than premade vs pugs does.

 

The premades does routine, thr pugs on the premade team coasts, and the pug team has no need to put in effort sd they are likely outgeared.

 

Letting premades meet pugs will end in a lower PVP population as it will DRIVE AWAY pugs. Both regulars and new players.

Edited by Veniras
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@Marumax: Let's do a few numbers...

 

Premader: Finds 1-3 other people an groups up. Often they've also found a guild and contribute to that. Coordinates with their team both before, after, and during a match.

 

PuG: Hit's solo queue button.

 

Which one put in more effort? Which one has the higher probability to win?

 

@Veniras: But the conversation is PuG vs. PuG being split from Premade vs. Premade. It's already been determined that Premades win because they have better coordination and have spent the time building ties with other players. Ie. They are playing better, and their competition will play better. A premader's average skill level is higher than a pug. (Though there are some terrible premaders out there, and some awesome PuG's.)

 

Thus, in the proposed system Premade vs. Premade will be the higher competition, and the PuG vs. PuG (aka, casual bracket) will be the lower competition. If you're playing in the kiddy pool, why do you get the same amount of comms as those playing in the deep end?

 

<.< which is why we need a better matchmaking system that tries to match premade vs premade first, then does a combination of Premade and pug, and not the overly suggested idea of the Big boy bracket and the kiddy bracket.

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@Marumax: Let's do a few numbers...

 

Premader: Finds 1-3 other people an groups up. Often they've also found a guild and contribute to that. Coordinates with their team both before, after, and during a match.

 

PuG: Hit's solo queue button.

 

Which one put in more effort? Which one has the higher probability to win?

Just stop already, your psuedo intellecualism is transparent and it fails hard.

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You did a pretty good job of picking what you wanted to hear out of the post and ignoring the rest of it wtg.... your point is irrelevant.

 

No, it isn't.

 

I hadn't realised your complaints of having your PvP play being ruined were based on sub50 PvP. It hadn't even crossed my mind as a possibility, and I imagine that goes for some others. This is why I wanted to be sure that sub50 PvP was really what you were talking about, and I picked out the parts that referred to it.

 

It seems unlikely to me that sub50 PvP is being ruined by premades.

 

Firstly, all the classes will be missing vital abilities before they reach 50 (no guardian leap/intercede for guardians/juggs in huttball, for instance). Secondly, many classes are pretty poor at their role before hitting certain levels (op/sco healers don't start great). This means that organised groups won't be able to function in the way they do at level50.

 

Secondly, I don't see that many people who have level 50s are going to be running premades in sub50 when they could be doing it at... level50. Friends who both have a character they're levelling may queue together for PvP, but that's a pretty marginal definition of a premade.

 

Thirdly, like I said, when I've queued at sub50 I simply haven't seen premades owning faces. This is only my own experience, it may be different on your server.

 

My main irritation with sub50 PvP is the rank incompetence on display. But given the fact that it's full of people who aren't familiar with PvP, the maps, or their characters (who are missing many key abilities as they're not levelled high enough), I try not to let myself get annoyed. It's not really fair. I'll try to bite my tongue and calmly advise people that standing on the top of our ramp when a jugg with the ball is coming is a bad tactical plan. I may have seen it a hundred times, they haven't and know no better.

 

Basic competence and a character approaching 50 should be enough to see you ruling in sub50 PvP, premades should be no concern. I wonder whether the complaints you've seen about premades have made you think that that's what you're seeing in sub50. I could be wrong, and maybe your server is full of organised four-man teams bullying sub50 PvP on alts instead of playing in level50 warzones. I don't know, it confuses me.

 

I'd agree with you that F2P players trying their minimal allowed PvP games, who then get crucified a few times, may not hurry back to it. It would be good if Bioware could scoop these blinking kittens out of the way of the oncoming juggernaut (whether he has the ball or not) and let them learn the ropes a bit first. Hence matchmaking being a good idea, imo.

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Thus, in the proposed system Premade vs. Premade will be the higher competition, and the PuG vs. PuG (aka, casual bracket) will be the lower competition. If you're playing in the kiddy pool, why do you get the same amount of comms as those playing in the deep end?

 

Puggs shouldn't get just as many rewards as premades. Fully agree. But do premades deserve same rewards as PUGs for playing vs PUGs and winning? No they don't as they faced less organised bunch of people and their chances of winning were much higher. See? Works both ways.

 

That's why premades belong in ranked. People should group up, put more effort into winning and get epeen meter in form of rating, easier to get ranked comms, prestige colored gear and use NWZ as only training or relaxation from stressing matches in RWZ or just fking around while you wait on your mates(would be even cooler if BW implemented possibility of joining empty WZ and train 4vs4 without rewards).

 

Adding 4-man groups to ranked would solve biggest problem of finding 4 more people. 4 people is already a team who can coop with other 4 people just fine. Maybe ranked would finally start off thanks to this change. BW we need that cross server que for ranked too...

 

Justifying premades in NWZ is just terrible and got a bit out of hand in this thread imo :rolleyes:

Edited by MelodicSixNine
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@Veniras: But the conversation is PuG vs. PuG being split from Premade vs. Premade. It's already been determined that Premades win because they have better coordination and have spent the time building ties with other players. Ie. They are playing better, and their competition will play better. A premader's average skill level is higher than a pug..

A skilled premader has an average lower skill than a skilled pug. The pugger has had to adapt to better spatioal awareness, not being able to rely on the teammates doing exactly what he is expecting them to do and not having a know team composition.

 

Basically, a skilled pugger has had more challenges than a skilled premader. Hence, better.

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A skilled premader has an average lower skill than a skilled pug. The pugger has had to adapt to better spatioal awareness, not being able to rely on the teammates doing exactly what he is expecting them to do and not having a know team composition.

 

Basically, a skilled pugger has had more challenges than a skilled premader. Hence, better.

 

even if truth, omg,***,ftw skilled uber pugger will loose cause turret defender will go afk or follow 'that recruit sage is is to scared to come any closer' and will get ninja capped :)

 

(for the record, I do both, mostly solo que)

 

Pugging, I have to adapt to stupid, premading I have to adapt to team play.

Grass is always greener on the other team..

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A skilled premader has an average lower skill than a skilled pug. The pugger has had to adapt to better spatioal awareness, not being able to rely on the teammates doing exactly what he is expecting them to do and not having a know team composition.

 

Basically, a skilled pugger has had more challenges than a skilled premader. Hence, better.

 

First off lets do away with the myth that every pug group only plays against premades. It's propaganda used by the people complaining and wanting to paint a picture of gloom and doom. I PUG all the time and this is so far from the truth it's almost funny. Same goes with the "I only win 1 out of 25" that's pure horse manure.

 

A Pugger is better skilled at playing for himself and would probably do great in death match type of play but it takes way more skill to pay attention to where your team mates are and to coordinate with them in a ever changing battlefield. So please save your theory crafting, anyone who plays on a regular basis knows what I'm saying is true.

Edited by Pvtcarnage
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And your experience on your server makes it true for everyone else ?

 

There are servers where you can play against the same pre-mades from the same top PvP guilds all night and for most nights of the week. There are servers where you can queue all night solo and get a queue pop once an hour, because that faction slmost exclusively pre-mades - switch to the opposing faction and you will face pre-mades primarily.

 

Your experience is true for you and therefore valid, just dont assume it works the same way for all servers.

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And your experience on your server makes it true for everyone else ?

 

There are servers where you can play against the same pre-mades from the same top PvP guilds all night and for most nights of the week. There are servers where you can queue all night solo and get a queue pop once an hour, because that faction slmost exclusively pre-mades - switch to the opposing faction and you will face pre-mades primarily.

 

Your experience is true for you and therefore valid, just dont assume it works the same way for all servers.

 

I still find what you say unlikely since you don't state which server, but let's say your right. You can either find good players that play when you do and organize, wait for paid server transfers, re-roll on a better server (The Shadowlands has plenty of PvP action and if your serious about PvP contact me on Pezz or Alen) OR find a game that offers what your asking for.

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First off lets do away with the myth that every pug group only plays against premades. It's propaganda used by the people complaining and wanting to paint a picture of gloom and doom. I PUG all the time and this is so far from the truth it's almost funny. Same goes with the "I only win 1 out of 25" that's pure horse manure.

 

Are you on my server? No! ;)

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I play on the Jedi Covenant server when I hit solo Que I can't even travel from the fleet to another planet without the join button popping up. The longest I have had to wait was maybe pushing 20mins but most of the time at any time of the day I seem to get in in about 10-15mins, the que is fast on my server. However it seems like this on some servers as well as mine, it's very 1 sided stacked. For my server it's 1 sided in favor of the republic. I have been randomly que'd with premades on the empire side but in almost every game that I play the republic side has a premade. When your playing it's easy to notice the same people day in and day out playing on the same team. I have heard rumors that there is a decent sized group of people from various guilds on the republic side that have banded together for PVP purposes at all hours. I made a republic char and at level 11 i started doing PVP and almost every match I won and was in a premade group. All the elitists can say is "make your own group" well firstly sorry I play at all kinds of off hours. Secondly I have been playing for all off a month and a half and to think I could just start grabbing the good PVP players on the empire to combat the seemingly always on large group of premades on the republic side is laughable, things like that take a lot of time.
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I play on the Jedi Covenant server when I hit solo Que I can't even travel from the fleet to another planet without the join button popping up. The longest I have had to wait was maybe pushing 20mins but most of the time at any time of the day I seem to get in in about 10-15mins, the que is fast on my server. However it seems like this on some servers as well as mine, it's very 1 sided stacked. For my server it's 1 sided in favor of the republic. I have been randomly que'd with premades on the empire side but in almost every game that I play the republic side has a premade. When your playing it's easy to notice the same people day in and day out playing on the same team. I have heard rumors that there is a decent sized group of people from various guilds on the republic side that have banded together for PVP purposes at all hours. I made a republic char and at level 11 i started doing PVP and almost every match I won and was in a premade group. All the elitists can say is "make your own group" well firstly sorry I play at all kinds of off hours. Secondly I have been playing for all off a month and a half and to think I could just start grabbing the good PVP players on the empire to combat the seemingly always on large group of premades on the republic side is laughable, things like that take a lot of time.

 

Sorry your life style inhibits your game play and sorry that you give up before you even try'n to find others to group with. But both reasons fall on your side of the fence and we can not help you there. But I guarantee you there are some good pvper's on your side that probably group together and the only work would be to find them. Good luck :D

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Letting pre-mades meet pugs will end in a lower PvP population as it will DRIVE AWAY pugs. Both regulars and new players.

 

This is a simple truth.

The EA/Bioware decision to go free to play does cater to a revolving door of players, but they do want those players to stick around long enough to spend some money. Nothing will drive those new players off faster than a bad gaming experience, and letting pre-mades annihilate newcomers will do just that.

 

It's not a question of skill, experience, or even fairness. In the end, it comes down to money. And you simply can't make money if no one sticks around to play your game.

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A skilled premader has an average lower skill than a skilled pug. The pugger has had to adapt to better spatioal awareness, not being able to rely on the teammates doing exactly what he is expecting them to do and not having a know team composition.

 

Basically, a skilled pugger has had more challenges than a skilled premader. Hence, better.

 

<.< then why is it that people complain about premades kicking their *** and not teams of high skilled PuG's?

 

Check mate.

 

Just stop already, your psuedo intellecualism is transparent and it fails hard.

 

<.< I find nothing terribly intellectual about pointing out the obvious. Premaders that win do so through a combination of personal skill and team skill/coordnation. PuG's that that lose to them are either lacking personal skill and/or team skill/coordination.

 

@MelodicSixNine: I fully believe ranked should have a 4 person queue option, and I think it would get most ranked-capable players out of normal matches.

 

Like wise, I think normal matches should have better matchmaking in the hopes of getting like teams vs like teams. (Aka 2 premades vs. 2 premades, 1 premade+4 pugs vs. 1 premade+4 pugs). This would be an inclusive option as opposed to the exclusive solo -or- group queue. Cross server queue's would also aid this pool in being large enough for a more complicated match making system.

 

In the mean time, you can't really blame players for wanting to play. Ranked is not an accessable option in it's current state.

Edited by Doomsdaycomes
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<.< then why is it that people complain about premades kicking their *** and not teams of high skilled PuG's?

 

Check mate.

 

read much? I seem to think you like picking and choosing what you want to see on here. Takes more skill to win as a Full PUG (being on a team that randomly gets 5 Mercs, which has happened to me) VS a premade team that has the 2 healers, tank etc. Yet PUG's fight on and now and then give the premades a run for their money. It's the fact that when you have **** and you fight against overwhelming odds It's like being the republic in the battle of Hoth you just can't win unless you 1 in 30 chance you get a random team that actaully has something to compete with. Once in awhile you get what you need and the "weaker force" wins like fighting the Death Star. It happens just not often to justify that premades should always be grouped against PUG's.

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read much? I seem to think you like picking and choosing what you want to see on here. Takes more skill to win as a Full PUG (being on a team that randomly gets 5 Mercs, which has happened to me) VS a premade team that has the 2 healers, tank etc. Yet PUG's fight on and now and then give the premades a run for their money. It's the fact that when you have **** and you fight against overwhelming odds It's like being the republic in the battle of Hoth you just can't win unless you 1 in 30 chance you get a random team that actaully has something to compete with. Once in awhile you get what you need and the "weaker force" wins like fighting the Death Star. It happens just not often to justify that premades should always be grouped against PUG's.

 

It would indeed take more skill for a Full PuG group to beat a double premade (assuming that premade is atleast decent.)

 

Yet that's -not- the majority of what happens. Majority is:

 

PuG's lose to premades.

 

Premades win 24 out of 25 (as some one posted).

 

PuG's win 1 out of 25.

 

<.< 24 divided by 25 is a bigger number than 1 divided by 25.

 

96% of the time, Premades have more skill (what decides winning) than their PuG brothers.

4% of the time, Pug's have more skill than their Premade brothers.

 

Aka, on average, Premaders have more overall skill than a PuG.

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This is a simple truth.

The EA/Bioware decision to go free to play does cater to a revolving door of players, but they do want those players to stick around long enough to spend some money. Nothing will drive those new players off faster than a bad gaming experience, and letting pre-mades annihilate newcomers will do just that.

 

It's not a question of skill, experience, or even fairness. In the end, it comes down to money. And you simply can't make money if no one sticks around to play your game.

 

You assume a lot in your statement. My server has great ques from the start and have not slowed at all, BUT all the big PvE guilds have left a long time ago and watching general chat mostly what you see is people having troubles filling in groups for PvE content.

 

Their money maker is not reliant on just PvP, and those that are more interested in PvP as a main source of fun that have any experience in MMO PvP will not leave that easily because most will seek out others that do play and join them.

 

And of course it's silly to paint the illusion the pugs will only face premades. I geared my first toon almost completely through pugging and at worst times of the day you might get smashed by premades 50% of the time but you also got teamed up with premades 50% of the time. If people can't handle losing they should stick to the way to easy PvE content SWTOR provides.

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It would indeed take more skill for a Full PuG group to beat a double premade (assuming that premade is atleast decent.)

 

Yet that's -not- the majority of what happens. Majority is:

 

PuG's lose to premades.

 

Premades win 24 out of 25 (as some one posted).

 

PuG's win 1 out of 25.

 

<.< 24 divided by 25 is a bigger number than 1 divided by 25.

 

96% of the time, Premades have more skill (what decides winning) than their PuG brothers.

4% of the time, Pug's have more skill than their Premade brothers.

 

Aka, on average, Premaders have more overall skill than a PuG.

 

no It has to do with adapting with what you get. Sorry to say it's hard to adapt in a couple of mins with a random group then it is when you play with the same people 5 hours a day everyday. take your avg PUG's put them in a group with a set up Just like eavery other premade and let them play together for hours and days and months and see what happens. PUG's do not want to be restricted to playing a game they "PAY" for because a smaller % of elitiest say so. It's my money I will play the game I am spending it on how I want to and it's a reasonable request for me to play with like minded individuals, just as it's reasonable to request that the elities who look down on us because it's harder to adapt in a couple of mins and then have to do it agaian and again go have fun and play with other premades. As I have pointed out over and over and posed this question andnever gotten a single response. Because in reality it comes down to..

 

WHY ARE YOU SO AFRAID OF PLAYING AGAINST OTHER PREMADES?

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