Did I misread that then?

 

And Krytos Virus comes to mind, and reborn Plaps. Yet she never even considered giving in to Isard or Sidious despite the destruction they were ravaging. How about Thrawn? Did she back down despite his siege of Coruscant? Millions were dying from lack of supplies but she held firm.

Nor do I expect the underworld to be acquiring top secret military information, but simply the movements/makeup of their fleets quite clearly visible in orbit by passing vessels and perhaps the location etc. of important buildings and facilities if also visible. They are not some kind of super-intelligence force, just eyes.

But yeah, Mothma was never given a way out was she? Did Isard offer an antidote? Did Reborn Palps offer to stop his attack? Did Thrawn give Mothma a chance to surrender? Did Mothma have reason to believe doing so would save countless lives, where countless immediate lives even at stake? And since when is she the be all and end all?

I mean G0-T0 appears on the Holo and threatens to obliterate a planet if she doesn't surrender and Mothma's just like, "fine, do it." What if he gets a frightened mother to plead her case? Sorry lady I don't give a damn about you or the billions of others on that planet, my life is totally more important than you insignificant plebs.

I thought Mothma was supposed to be the good guy... and what about the Jedi, genocide in their code now?

EDIT: Anyway this is under the assumption that there is somehow nothing Mothma could do to stop them and G0-T0 would ultimately be bluffing as I doubt he would cause so much damage to a planet.

For number 5 does that the Proton Torpedos will pierce shields and be able to impact directly on the hull of the target vessel? *I assume that is game mechanics, but just wanted to clarify.*i

OK guys concerning the numbers I provided and the rules surrounding them they are final, Silenceo I'm not sure what your complaint actually is and I don't know why you are coming up with differing numbers but if you want to know which numbers I am going to use when making the final decisions look to those provided.

 

I'm not interesting in getting into a discussion concerning this and having rules dictated to me so lets just move on.

 

P.S. Tune, these are not anti-starfighter cannons they are anti-ship cannons. With the term "laser cannon" referring to anything between blaster size to the guns on an AT-AT. Clearly these pack a turbolaser punch, they are massive.

 

That and they are slow moving, and clearly would be useless against fighters positioned inside the ship.

 

P.P.S Silenceo what exactly are those figures referring to? I'm deeply confused.

You know a foot down like that just means in my mind the results being completely invalidated. If you dont want a debate, then dont have a debate just say what the 2 factions can and cant do and which you think will win and be done with it.

On the P.S

"A point-defense cannon was a kind of fast-tracking starship emplacement, typically laser cannons or ion cannons, that were used to defend large starships against smaller starfighters. Point-defense cannons were also used to defend against missiles."

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Point-defense_cannon

no they arent turbo lasers no they are not meant for capital ship to capital ship fights they are meant to clean off fighters from you as well as defend against projectiles......... /debate.

Edit: we are supposed to use these forums for Knowledge and defense, if we wish to not debate these points and remain ignorant I feel we do a diservice to the entire Kaggath. Much knowledge has already been shed how much more is lost by saying no more.

You know a foot down like that just means in my mind the results being completely invalidated. If you dont want a debate, then dont have a debate just say what the 2 factions can and cant do and which you think will win and be done with it.

 

On the P.S

 

"A point-defense cannon was a kind of fast-tracking starship emplacement, typically laser cannons or ion cannons, that were used to defend large starships against smaller starfighters. Point-defense cannons were also used to defend against missiles."

 

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Point-defense_cannon

 

no they arent turbo lasers no they are not meant for capital ship to capital ship fights they are meant to clean off fighters from you as well as defend against projectiles......... /debate.

Concerning the cannons, unfortunately they do not resemble that description in anyway. They are slow, not fast tracking, and positioned inside the hull would be completely useless at defending against starfighters which would simply attack from above. Indeed there have been several particular instances in the Clone Wars such as the Battle of Ryloth were Venators have found themselves completely exposed to starfighters and unable to fight back.

On top of that we have seen these cannons, the guns of which if anything are larger than the standard turbolaser, be used in close quarters anti-ship fire, and ended up crippling their opponents. And being positioned inside the hull they would only be of use in a flanking maneuver against an enemy warship, never against fighters.

The talk pages on the Venator are also in general agreement that those particular cannons are turbolasers and it is highly possible that the source could have been using laser cannon as short hand which is not uncommon. And point-defense is a valid description considering they are limited in terms of range and scope.

All in all you're going to need something aside from an unsourced Wookiee quote, preferably some practical evidence, to back up your claim if you want your argument to be valid, because right now it makes little logical sense.

But anyway, if we are using Wookiepeedia, it also says this on turbolasers:

Because these weapons required extra time to build up energy for their powerful blasts, they tended to have a slightly slower rate of fire than their weaker brethren (usually around one to two seconds between volleys, depending on the type of turbolaser and what power setting it was on).

Its quite obvious from this clip that those cannons fire at a slow rate, probably more like three to four seconds.

Regardless I'd rather not get bogged down in facts and figures, they exist, and its quite obvious that if a Venator flanked one of the enemies ships it could deal some significant damage with those heavy cannons.

Proton torpedos are physical projectiles so like missles they bypass standard shields (this is why they used them to blow up the Death Star) so yes it would. But not on the Executor as that has particle shields.

Wait wait wait...wouldn't that mean that the debate we had forever ago where you had mass drivers...wouldn't have had them pierce the Lusankya's Shields? *sister ship to Executor*

Side Note: The numbers were my own approximation of force strength, mostly not counting fighters, if 1 = Interceptor, which was equal in your eyes to a Nebulon B. Granted, now that I look back they are slightly off, and the numbers would be slightly higher due to misjudging the strength of the dreadnaughts and lower in the case of the Venators. They were only meant to show an approximation anyways. I was suggesting we figure out how to balance the 2 forces but remain true to their tactics. *traditional fighting force vs rag tag pirates* They just felt...off...so I was trying to find out what it was that was making them feel so to me.

Extra Note: Are we going with the Executor with only 144 fighters/bombers or its full thousands? If 144, then the DS will have a significantly greater advantage in fighter superiority *which will lead to a some what evenly balanced battle due to the weaker capital ships.* If it however has the full compliment then that would put the AE not nearly as far behind making the entire space warfare severely lopsided.

Wait wait wait...wouldn't that mean that the debate we had forever again where you had mass drivers...wouldn't have had them pierce the Lusankya's Shields? *sister ship to Executor*

 

Side Note: The numbers were my own approximation of force strength, mostly not counting fighters, if 1 = Interceptor, which was equal in your eyes to a Nebulon B. Granted, now that I look back they are slightly off, and the numbers would be slightly higher due to misjudging the strength of the dreadnaughts and lower in the case of the Venators. They were only meant to show an approximation anyways. I was suggesting we figure out how to balance the 2 forces but remain true to their tactics. *traditional fighting force vs rag tag pirates* They just felt...off...so I was trying to find out what it was that was making them feel so to me.

 

Extra Note: Are we going with the Executor with only 144 fighters/bombers or its full thousands? If 144, then the DS will have a significantly greater advantage in fighter superiority *which will lead to a some what evenly balanced battle due to the weaker capital ships.* If it however has the full compliment then that would put the AE not nearly as far behind making the entire space warfare severely lopsided.

Yeah I was a little confused exactly what the numbers meant but I get that now. But anyway the difference in "firepower" seems to be a lot larger than the difference in the figures I came up with, so yeah I'm not sure about that. How exactly were you determining how many Nebulon B's each vessel was worth?

I again encourage you to just use these figures, different methods will lead to different stats and ultimately I don't think is method is very accurate, and the slightest inaccuracy can lead to large differences in outcome.

Anyway by my calculations the Supremacy has 7% superior firepower if we consider proton torpedoes and concussion missiles to be comparable and of course discounting the Executor. So they are fairly even.

If we count the battlecruisers and tactical ability of the Ascending Empire, as well as the superior design of the ISDs, even set off against fighter inferiority in both numbers and quality the Ascending Empire in a full force confrontation will likely win. But if the odds are against them the Supremacy can more easily win without taking major casualties.

Ultimately though, seeing as a full on confrontation is more than unlikely, you should focus on when and where the fleets will engage each other rather than trying to look at the wider picture which might never come about.

P.S. Concerning the Executor compliments, I think its fair to say they start with the base minimum.

Its your opinion unfortunately, not fact. In such cases there is always going to be disagreement. And my role as Arbiter is not to appease people's opinions.

 

Concerning the cannons, unfortunately they do not resemble that description in anyway. They are slow, not fast tracking, and positioned inside the hull would be completely useless at defending against starfighters which would simply attack from above. Indeed there have been several particular instances in the Clone Wars such as the Battle of Ryloth were Venators have found themselves completely exposed to starfighters and unable to fight back.

 

On top of that we have seen these cannons, the guns of which if anything are larger than the standard turbolaser, be used in close quarters anti-ship fire, and ended up crippling their opponents. And being positioned inside the hull they would only be of use in a flanking maneuver against an enemy warship, never against fighters.

 

The talk pages on the Venator are also in general agreement that those particular cannons are turbolasers and it is highly possible that the source could have been using laser cannon as short hand which is not uncommon. And point-defense is a valid description considering they are limited in terms of range and scope.

 

All in all you're going to need something aside from an unsourced Wookiee quote, preferably some practical evidence, to back up your claim if you want your argument to be valid, because right now it makes little logical sense.

 

But anyway, if we are using Wookiepeedia, it also says this on turbolasers:

 

Because these weapons required extra time to build up energy for their powerful blasts, they tended to have a slightly slower rate of fire than their weaker brethren (usually around one to two seconds between volleys, depending on the type of turbolaser and what power setting it was on).

 

Its quite obvious from this clip that those cannons fire at a slow rate, probably more like three to four seconds.

 

Regardless I'd rather not get bogged down in facts and figures, they exist, and its quite obvious that if a Venator flanked one of the enemies ships it could deal some significant damage with those heavy cannons.

Oh yes because Venators arent listed as having turbo lasers ...... oh wait

DBY-827 heavy dual turbolaser turrets (8)[1]

Medium dual turbolaser cannons (2)[1]

Turbolaser cannons (unknown number; may be a modification)

it has at least 10 likely a few more.

Point-defense laser cannons (52)[1] Its listed as a Point defense Cannon.... now what is a point defense cannon

"A point-defense cannon was a kind of fast-tracking starship emplacement, typically laser cannons or ion cannons, that were used to defend large starships against smaller starfighters. Point-defense cannons were also used to defend against missiles."

there is your awnser.... simply your wrong. and I cant see how you are defending a point defense cannon being a Turbo laser when they specifically say they arent. Venators have Turbo lasers. So what you see in those shots...... are turbo lasers not point defense cannons.

And ya we wouldnt want any of your decisions to be based on facts.........

Not to mention now halfing the number of Victories and Immobilisers the Rules you have listed would allow and removing an entire ship class (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Ilthmar%27s_Fist a http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Imperial_Star_Battlecruiser) from the AE's arsenal all because why?

I think you guys REALLY need to look at your "buffing" of those interceptor frigates. If you look the Nebulon-B is a larger Vessel by about 125 meters..... nearly DOUBLE the size of the Interceptor but the Interceptor impressively has shields and engine strength on par with the Nebulon, there is no way a ship Half the size is going to have equal shields AND equal fire power its just not possible. If you look at their loadouts...... they are fairly even as is. The double the size nebulon has 12 turbo lasers.... the smaller 6.... well half the lasers for half the size is appropriate.... instead of the Laser cannons which the Nebulon also has 12 of they have replaced them with 3 Proton torps on the Interceptor. They may have been able to fight even with the Nebulon in the game, but these in game Interceptors were the upgraded Interceptor IV's, not to mention this is still a game and while they are even in game that just means they are close not that one isnt still better. Look at the IMperial II vs Mon cal for this. The imp II is still the better ship, but for the game they are even.

The Interceptor doesnt require an "upgrade" the weapons shown are proportionate to its size as well as its shield capacity in comparison to other ships.

I think we should just drop it so that Beni can call it.

^This please, the arguments on ships this late in the debate are not likely to change the outcome.

I thought Mothma was supposed to be the good guy... and what about the Jedi, genocide in their code now?

 

EDIT: Anyway this is under the assumption that there is somehow nothing Mothma could do to stop them and G0-T0 would ultimately be bluffing as I doubt he would cause so much damage to a planet.

So the good guy should sacrifice themselves and the future of all free people to be enslaved or murdered in order to save a fraction of the population? She is much smarter than you give her credit for, she know's G0-T0's endgame heck the name of the faction itself (and the troops it uses) tells her that.

Also, "She wasn't given a way out" is your answer? Any of those situations is the same here. G0-T0 might be trying to guilt her into something but the fact he is willing to kill that many people at all lets her know he won't stop there. If Isard (a notorious liar and sadistic monster) had told her she would stop the Krytos Virus do you honestly think she'd have believed her? And even then, do you think the jedi who often put the many above the few would allow her to do something that would instantly cause their defeat to G0-T0 in the hopes that he *might* not just kill the people anyways for kicks before offing Mon Mothma?

This is a silly argument. I don't know who made it first, but it isn't logical from a galactic viewpoint> perhaps on a personal level, but good leaders have always set aside personal feelings in the interest of their people.

So the good guy should sacrifice themselves and the future of all free people to be enslaved or murdered in order to save a fraction of the population? She is much smarter than you give her credit for, she know's G0-T0's endgame heck the name of the faction itself (and the troops it uses) tells her that.

 

Also, "She wasn't given a way out" is your answer? Any of those situations is the same here. G0-T0 might be trying to guilt her into something but the fact he is willing to kill that many people at all lets her know he won't stop there. If Isard (a notorious liar and sadistic monster) had told her she would stop the Krytos Virus do you honestly think she'd have believed her? And even then, do you think the jedi who often put the many above the few would allow her to do something that would instantly cause their defeat to G0-T0 in the hopes that he *might* not just kill the people anyways for kicks before offing Mon Mothma?

 

This is a silly argument. I don't know who made it first, but it isn't logical from a galactic viewpoint> perhaps on a personal level, but good leaders have always set aside personal feelings in the interest of their people.

And it was all Silenceo's idea!

But, but, but....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qh2sWSVRrmo

 

And it was all Silenceo's idea!

Tunewalker the attitude is unnecessary and its not going to get you anywhere. I'd also point out the the size of the Interceptors are in fact arbitary and in fact in-game they dwarf vessels of that size, it is likely they are far larger.

They are also the Mark IV's in the game not the originals that we see, that also doesnt change any of the other points or make them any less right. Also having at least 1 source that says about the point defense cannons> having no source and opinion.

The attitude may get me know where but until things are done right I give attitude, your dismissing evidence provided by sources for your opinion. That is ignoring cannon because opinion. You have nothing but opinion to back your claims about Point defense cannons. You have nothing but opinion for making Interceptors equal to Nebulon's (which were originally designed as war vessels so you cant just say they werent meant to have fire power) regardless of the size difference because of your opinion on a game mechanic which puts other ships like MC80's equal to Imp Star destroyers which cannonically were weaker then the Destroyers.

I have shown more then enough evidence and instead of realizing your wrong you just wish to continue having it your way. Well if thats going to be the way you run your threads then all of us debating in them is pointless. They are all your opinion first and fore most. You pick and choose the arguements you like and utterly dismiss the ones that would force you to admit you made any kind of mistake. Thats not a debate thread. That is a dictatorship.

perfect response lol

Edit: also when in the hell did GO-TO become genocidal? Last I checked he wanted to FIX the republic. He sole purpose in life is to fix the republic not dominate it. If anything he will be the one giving up to Mothma not the other way around, but I dont think that will happen cus I dont think he sees a politician as a way to fix it. Honestly though I dont think he sees a war that way either. He will do everything he can to avoid open war, it is way to costly to the galaxy as a whole which he wont allow.

This is why my early conferance Idea that happens on a neutral system Mothma with Obi-wan, Koon and some Imp Knights vs GO-TO with a Proxy, Guri and a few terror droids is the most likely outcome. Hell we might just have a gentelmens duel to fix the issue, Mothma vs GO-TO. Least costly way possible.

They are also the Mark IV's in the game not the originals that we see, that also doesnt change any of the other points or make them any less right. Also having at least 1 source that says about the point defense cannons> having no source and opinion.

 

The attitude may get me know where but until things are done right I give attitude, your dismissing evidence provided by sources for your opinion. That is ignoring cannon because opinion. You have nothing but opinion to back your claims about Point defense cannons. You have nothing but opinion for making Interceptors equal to Nebulon's (which were originally designed as war vessels so you cant just say they werent meant to have fire power) regardless of the size difference because of your opinion on a game mechanic which puts other ships like MC80's equal to Imp Star destroyers which cannonically were weaker then the Destroyers.

 

I have shown more then enough evidence and instead of realizing your wrong you just wish to continue having it your way. Well if thats going to be the way you run your threads then all of us debating in them is pointless. They are all your opinion first and fore most. You pick and choose the arguements you like and utterly dismiss the ones that would force you to admit you made any kind of mistake. Thats not a debate thread. That is a dictatorship.

I'm not going to respond to the rest because I see you haven't dropped the attitude. When you have I'm sure we can have a civilized discussion about the matter as opposed to a shouting match which I am not interested in.

The Interceptor frigates were used by the Black Sun in EaW, regardless the Mark IVs are the same size.

 

I'm not going to respond to the rest because I see you haven't dropped the attitude. When you have I'm sure we can have a civilized discussion about the matter as opposed to a shouting match which I am not interested in.

Well attitude or no the points still stand. I have sources, you have none, by default in a formal debate I win.

Edit: The Mark IV's are also the ones that dont have the proper weapons listed http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Interceptor_IV_frigate see its supposed to be an "upgrade" from the Interceptor and yet it has less weapons. The weapons on the interceptor original are correct. They dont need "correcting" they are a smaller ship with less fire power then a Nebulon, they were never supposed to have equal fire power to a Nebulon. They have equal shielding and are faster since their engines are the same strength and the vessel is smaller. What dont you get about this. The game makes ships that arent equal, equal so that there is some balance between factions when in actual cannon the factions arent balanced.

Well attitude or no the points still stand. I have sources, you have none, by default in a formal debate I win.

Tunewalker stop shouting at my face and allow me to address your points in a civilized manner. Thank you.

In all fairness, you just said you weren't going to.

As for this whole breakdown thing, I'd agree with Tunewalker for the extra ships, but it's likely beni won't change it this late, to just let him call it.

In all fairness, you just said you weren't going to.

 

As for this whole breakdown thing, I'd agree with Tunewalker for the extra ships, but it's likely beni won't change it this late, to just let him call it.

Tunewalker stop shouting at my face and allow me to address your points in a civilized manner. Thank you.

That wasnt shouting you said you werent going to even bother addressing the points. Well if no arguement is to be posed on the points that i brought up with linked sources beyond.... "NUH UH cus i said so" then you see why it invalidates pretty much everything you try to do.

I'm referring to the Venator issue, the only thing I'm not about to change are the rules which have been established at the beginning of the debate.

I know, I'm just saying this fleet discussion is pointless because you've made up your mind

I'm referring to the Venator issue, the only thing I'm not about to change are the rules which have been established at the beginning of the debate.

Of which you have already changed by disallowing the AE to have http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Imperial_Star_Battlecruiser which the death squad had 2 of, and saying only 1 Victory and 1 Immobiliser when rules and regulations originally stated that EACH fleet would be reduced 1/5th and then combined, not combined and the reduced. which would mean the AE would have at least 1 more of each of those as well. Like I said

Sorry, but I am not wearing a to-to and clown shoes and riding a uni-cycle and not rebelling on you.