I agree that most pugs are not very good. New 55s, players just trying out pvp, casual players, just always bad players, etc. That IS the reason premade matching is needed. I don't understand the premaders who frequently pugstomp since that seems boring but I don't blame them either. These premaders choose their team however, and even if they don't choose very well they are likely all better than the worst 4 pugs in most matches .

I have no hopes of most matches being even. I would just like more that win or lose at least come down to the wire. If cross server is off the table (which it appears to be according to BW) then people saying that we can't separate the q's any further are correct. However, matchmaking would not separate the q's any further. It would just try for several minutes to put premades on both teams if there was more than 1 premade q'n within a several minute window. If there was only 1 q'n then after several minutes they would be treated as they are now.

Also, a simple system like this could be based on an hourly q average or time of day so that it turns itself off when there aren't many people q'n and then the several minute wait would disappear.

I think this would bring at least more even matches. I'm not sure how many more but it would help somewhat.

Also, if we can't do cross server I really think we should have mixed faction teams. This would kill q synching for one but also it would alleviate the problems many servers are having with 1 faction being way stronger than the other. Make mixed faction matches all be some training or hutt sport and there you go lore wise.

Well you simply said you didn't agree that pugs are fight mindlessly and are incapable of the simplest of tasks in warzones.

 

Since you really didn't give any real rebuttal or anything to back why you disagreed I could only assume that you thought that they all were capable of that since if you disagree with something than your opinion on any matter must reflect the opposite of what was stated in an argument.

I Think the main point people seem to forget is 4 man groups are actually part of unranked warzones. I would understand the point people are making if it was 8 man premades but its not. It's half a premade so its a compromise for both parties.

The second thing people overlook is often there are lopsided matches because solo que players leave the game until they find a team that can carry them, therefore I doubt that splitting the queues will change anything at all, because they will still do that anyway as soon as the game doesn't go their way.

What annoys me is people think unranked is exclusive for solo players - it's not and never has been and this is part of the problem with the whole argument. The way it is now is a compromise - any number from 1-4 can queue and play, forcing those players into ranked or groups only because of super premade VoIP teams is misguided and dumb. How common is this really? Is it really that there are lots of highly skilled premades? Or is it that there are a lot of bad players who can't grasp the basics? I tend to think the latter over the former but I don't deny that premades exist, I just think this whole issue is blown way out of proportion.

I agree that most pugs are not very good. New 55s, players just trying out pvp, casual players, just always bad players, etc. That IS the reason premade matching is needed. I don't understand the premaders who frequently pugstomp since that seems boring but I don't blame them either. These premaders choose their team however, and even if they don't choose very well they are likely all better than the worst 4 pugs in most matches .

 

I have no hopes of most matches being even. I would just like more that win or lose at least come down to the wire. If cross server is off the table (which it appears to be according to BW) then people saying that we can't separate the q's any further are correct. However, matchmaking would not separate the q's any further. It would just try for several minutes to put premades on both teams if there was more than 1 premade q'n within a several minute window. If there was only 1 q'n then after several minutes they would be treated as they are now.

 

Also, a simple system like this could be based on an hourly q average or time of day so that it turns itself off when there aren't many people q'n and then the several minute wait would disappear.

 

I think this would bring at least more even matches. I'm not sure how many more but it would help somewhat.

 

Also, if we can't do cross server I really think we should have mixed faction teams. This would kill q synching for one but also it would alleviate the problems many servers are having with 1 faction being way stronger than the other. Make mixed faction matches all be some training or hutt sport and there you go lore wise.

I don't think mixed faction will ever happen but I do agree that a rock solid matchmaking is needed. Something where it tries to it's best to pit premades on either side of the fight because splitting the queues can simply not happen at this stage in the game and honestly I don't think it will solve anything as you're still going to get lopsided matches in both queues given how wide of a skill gap there is in this game. You get lopsided matches in all queue types lowbies, regs regardless of premades or pugs and in ranked.

The only thing, the ONLY thing they can really do is implement any form of a working matchmaking system. Whether it takes into account a hidden player rating or groups something should be done.

I would just like more that win or lose at least come down to the wire.

That is what I would like to see. Some sort of match making as you suggest would be helpful. Having more and varied objectives in warzones are needed. More attention needs to be paid to balancing also.

The premade vs pugs dichotomy is false. Most players I am familiar with both premade and pug. So are they good when they premade and bad when they pug?

The issue is a premade filter being applied prior to random selection to one side and not the other. That filter is most often designed to keep out less geared, less skilled and less cooperative players and to select better players and synergistic classes. (of course this isn't always true, all premades are not created equal). In addition, the premade most often has VOIP and experience playing together and peer pressure to cooperate unlike the randomly just selected pug team. This is inherently unfair and a lopsided match is a frequent result.

Characterizing premades as skilled or evil, and pugs as bads or antisocial and QQers does nothing to resolve the issue.

It seems even premades don't want to face premades when they could be easy mode pug farming.

This is what it all boils down to. The premades don't want to face the potential of losing when they could instead just faceroll randoms in unranked.

This is what it all boils down to. The premades don't want to face the potential of losing when they could instead just faceroll randoms in unranked.

You guys need fresh material, and maybe some fresh air. Starting to sound like whacked-out cult members who only speak with rhetoric.

This is what it all boils down to. The premades don't want to face the potential of losing when they could instead just faceroll randoms in unranked.

has a signature about how he fights unfairly, complains when people group together to get an advantage.....lol

wait a minute, do you mean we have transcended gaming and gone straight into politics?

has a signature about how he fights unfairly, complains when people group together to get an advantage.....lol

 

 

wait a minute, do you mean we have transcended gaming and gone straight into politics?

his sig could be satirically making fun of sins.

As someone who came back about a month ago from quitting a couple months after launch (quit for a new hardcore raiding game... then puzzle boss happened...even after beating it we STILL weren't sure what the strat was... bugs galore and super easy), a few of my friends and I came back primarily for starfighter, but also for warzones (we still raid in WoW for PvE stuff). Originally we were empire on Darth Bandon, and that got merged into Shadowlands, and we decided to give republic a try. To me it's hilarious how star fighter is the polar opposite of warzones in regards to the dominant faction, and shows me that Bioware has a ways to go when it comes to figuring out how to stop a mass faction exodus in a certain part of the game.

My experience in warzones upon hitting 55 has been... well... sad. I could go through a whole narrative about everything that's wrong, but at a fundamental level, when a completely random pug is matched against a premade even in the 4v4 arenas, something is wrong. At prime time, pretty much all I see are premades from Death Smile, Death-Sentence, and HMD Magenta. On top of that, the bolester system clearly doesn't carry out it's intention; where you SHOULD have maybe a 5% advantage over someone based on gear, instead it is a complete and utter curb stomp over someone without pvp gear.

Add to this that the points you receive for a loss are about HALF of that for a win, and this effectly clearly would snowball.

There really is no way to fix the imbalance of geared players versus random baddy pugs (and for the record, I very well may be one of those baddies), but some suggestions to start getting on the right track...

• WZ Comms and Valor - This ratio needs to change. Instead of say, 140 WZ comms for a win and 70 for a loss, it needs to be more like 140/120. The dailies, accordingly, should just be games played, they clearly favor certain people over others (whether or not you halve the count doesn't matter).
  
• Bolster - This isn't really working. The whole concept of being more powerful than someone else in a pvp environment is fundamentally flawed, guild wars had the right approach here to having one stat set and just allowing people to earn skins. PvP doesn't work well with a gear treadmill as skill is replaced by gear.
  
• Handicap - I understand why seperating the group queues is problematic and can result in longer queue times. First, you have the option to make better matched games if you have CROSS REALM functionality. I assume this is still not in, because I see the same three guilds on my server constantly. Second, implement a BATTLE handicap if you queue as a group. Say a 10% power reduction in damage/healing for each person past the first that you are queued with (not sure of the exact number, but some kind of penalty). Or a kind of buff on the other team that does the opposite, if you prefer. Or maybe make them earn fewer points, move slower with the hutball, take longer to cap, etc. There are a lot of options. You can queue as a group, but you won't get to **** stomp pugs, you'll have to work for it.
  

• WZ Comms and Valor - This ratio needs to change. Instead of say, 140 WZ comms for a win and 70 for a loss, it needs to be more like 140/120. The dailies, accordingly, should just be games played, they clearly favor certain people over others (whether or not you halve the count doesn't matter).
  
• Bolster - This isn't really working. The whole concept of being more powerful than someone else in a pvp environment is fundamentally flawed, guild wars had the right approach here to having one stat set and just allowing people to earn skins. PvP doesn't work well with a gear treadmill as skill is replaced by gear.
  
• Handicap - I understand why seperating the group queues is problematic and can result in longer queue times. First, you have the option to make better matched games if you have CROSS REALM functionality. I assume this is still not in, because I see the same three guilds on my server constantly. Second, implement a BATTLE handicap if you queue as a group. Say a 10% power reduction in damage/healing for each person past the first that you are queued with (not sure of the exact number, but some kind of penalty). Or a kind of buff on the other team that does the opposite, if you prefer. Or maybe make them earn fewer points, move slower with the hutball, take longer to cap, etc. There are a lot of options. You can queue as a group, but you won't get to **** stomp pugs, you'll have to work for it.
  

Not sure if serious.

Receive almost double the comms for a loss and make winning no much better than losing? Why not just hand out participation medals which can be turned in for a piece of gear?

I don't think you understand how bolster works. There is a post on it now. Bolster is working as good as it has been in a while. You can be more than competitive without any PvP gear if you know how to gear yourself up and use augments/stims/datacrons/max affection.

Cross servers are never going to happen and as far as given a handicap id go with you if every single premade is comprised of the players of the same skill factor, classes/specs and composition. And if I'm reading that a 4 man group would receive a 30% debuff for all damage/healing/protection? C'mon man.

Look I'm all for finding logical solutions but these are all poorly thought out even if you took the time to write them up.

Not sure if serious.

 

Receive almost double the comms for a loss and make winning no much better than losing? Why not just hand out participation medals which can be turned in for a piece of gear?

 

I don't think you understand how bolster works. There is a post on it now. Bolster is working as good as it has been in a while. You can be more than competitive without any PvP gear if you know how to gear yourself up and use augments/stims/datacrons/max affection.

 

Cross servers are never going to happen and as far as given a handicap id go with you if every single premade is comprised of the players of the same skill factor, classes/specs and composition. And if I'm reading that a 4 man group would receive a 30% debuff for all damage/healing/protection? C'mon man.

 

 

 

Look I'm all for finding logical solutions but these are all poorly thought out even if you took the time to write them up.

These weren't written up with the intention making things easy for the people already at the top. They are there to curb the horrible imbalance bioware let happen. They are there to make the horribly lopsided factions more tolerable to those on the losing side. For the last week, I have done AT LEAST my 6 daily games a day, usually more like 10. I kept track, I won 3. The WHOLE week. Two were the 4v4 arenas I DIDN'T have to fight a premade (the other being a voidstar). Normally I am either top or second from top on medals (I play a vanguard tank, so it's difficult to get damage medals). A serious portion of these games we are stomped so badly you can't get ANY match objective medals, meaning the vast majority of players can't even get their 8 medals just to get the max WZ comms out of a loss.

If you don't let the republic get a close # of commendations, the terrible, undergeared players will continue to stay undergeared, and be demoralized into either not playing or just doing their daily (and staying terrible, instead of trying and learning). The incentive to win should be in the challenge at this point, or the shame of a premade losing to a pug. Do you really thing a fully aug'd player with 3 others in voice chat has to worry about losing to a random bolstered player with a 20-30% penalty? I don't.

When blizzard was faced with a similar problem, they merged servers or offered free character transfers. There are two problems with this in SWTOR. First, the faction imbalance across ALL servers much more heavily favors the Empire (this is because the empire is just cooler, focus groups should have shown them this and stories and class choices should have been altered accordingly). And second, there is no option to faction xfer, even though the characters are exact mirrors. You can make an arguement about how the class story is not 1:1, but the easy solution is to reset them at the beginning of whatever planet you were on previously (with obvious handling of balmorra vs taris and faction specific planets). They have done none of this, and kinda just let the republic side rot and force PvPers into the empire side (which at this point I'd rather quit given all the work I put into my vanguard).

As is, I haven't seen them do a single thing curb premades OR the faction imbalance in any form (even repub winning Star Fighter, and that's still in early access, now is the PERFECT time to take action)... and that sits OK with you?

[*]WZ Comms and Valor - This ratio needs to change. Instead of say, 140 WZ comms for a win and 70 for a loss, it needs to be more like 140/120. The dailies, accordingly, should just be games played, they clearly favor certain people over others (whether or not you halve the count doesn't matter).

So you basically want people to just stand around AFK, because a bunch of quick losses will be better than a long win. Think before you post.

So you basically want people to just stand around AFK, because a bunch of quick losses will be better than a long win. Think before you post.

That already happens on republic side on a bunch of maps, like Voidstar. Why bother when they beat you so thoroughly you die the moment you leave the spawn? I've been in plenty of warzones where we are spawn camped.

That already happens on republic side on a bunch of maps, like Voidstar. Why bother when they beat you so thoroughly you die the moment you leave the spawn? I've been in plenty of warzones where we are spawn camped.

On Pot5 pubs run a lot of premades. Transfer there and join up. Being minority faction, most of the time there are double premades farming imp pugs like cabbages.

Right now the big problem is that there is no incentive for ranked teams to play in ranked. I mean think about it, you can only do Arenas, matches don't count to the daily/weekly, you have long queue times even in the group queue and when you do get a pop you're facing the same guys you've faced 1177 times before.

Most of the premade teams in regular WZs are not there just for a free PuG stomping. They are there because they want to play 8v8, want to get their daily/weekly done, don;t want to wait 30mins between WZs and don't want to keep facing the same 2 or 3 teams all the time (because it gets boring very quickly).

Simply banning all groups from the regular queue is NOT the answer as it will hurt those non-premade groups that simply want to play together socially. Also it will not stop that small number of premades that like to bully PuG (I never said they didn't exists) who will simply queue sync in the solo queues and still get there group into WZs.

The answer is to give the ranked teams a reason to play ranked again as right now the only thing they really get from it is a position on the leader-board. I think you could do this with the following changes to the PvP structure:

• Return 8v8 to ranked queues
  
• Maximum group size in ranked queue is 4, so for an 8v8 it will be 2x4man vs 2x4man
  
• Introduce a Ranked Daily and Weekly (gives ranked comms)
  
• New "Elite Valor" rating only available from playing ranked, with its own Titles. This could then be used like a reputation system allowing the purchase of unique (non performance enhancing) items from a new vendor (Unique Saber Crystals, weapons, adaptive armour, mounts pets ect). Give ranked players something to spend their comms on once they are fully geared.
  
• Increase the amount for credits awarded for completing the Daily/Weekly missions at all PvP levels, doing PvP dailies should be a viable alternative to running Black Hole or Section X
  
• Halve the number of ranked comms given by the regular Daily/weekly missions (but increase the number of reg comms).
  
• Remove the cap on WZ comms once a player hits 55 but not before.
  
• Remove the ability to buy rankled comms with regular comms. But add the ability to trade comms for Classic and Basic comms instead.
  
• Remove Bolster from ranked PvP, only those with full PvP gear should be entering
  
• Allow players to queue for both ground WZs and GSF at the same time
  
• Introduce an in-game voice chat client for WZs and Ops
  

Giving players more rewards for doing ranked will lure teams back, especially if they get to play 8v8 again, as will giving them unique (and cool) titles and cosmetic items, people do like to show off after all

Reducing and limiting the number of ranked comms they can get from regular WZs will also push gear grinders back into ranked.

Removing Bolster from ranked will hopefully mean less undergeared bads trying ranked as their PvE gear will be destroyed due to the lack of Expertise.

Introducing an in-game VOIP system will give PuG the choice to remove one of the premades big advantages, if PuGs choose not to use it then it is there own fault.

However even if most ranked teams leave the regular queues there will still be some bullies left, but they will not be able to hide in amongst the decent ranked teams that are just in the regular queues because they is no reason to play in ranked. And since the bullies can no longer hide it will be far easier to call them out and do something about them.

First, the faction imbalance across ALL servers much more heavily favors the Empire (this is because the empire is just cooler, focus groups should have shown them this and stories and class choices should have been altered accordingly).

Really ????? Which server do you play on, I can tell you that on the Red Eclipse it is pretty even 50/50 between the Imps and the Reps in all brackets of PvP. Ofc some nights it seems that the Reps can't lose and other nights like the Imps are invincible but over the course of a week it balances out.

On Pot5 pubs run a lot of premades. Transfer there and join up. Being minority faction, most of the time there are double premades farming imp pugs like cabbages.

woah woah woah woah woah, woah, woah.....woah. You play an imp toon on PoT5?

max credits www.youtube.com/watch?v=NyjRUROV

Let this damn thread die already -_-"

max credits www.youtube.com/watch?v=NyjRUROV

Seriously Bioware. At least forum ban the people that spam nothing but friend referral links.

max credits 

Masked referral link

Thought i add my to cents When i slisten to this today made me think of this thread

MOG Nation Presents: Real Gamers of Genius Mr. MMO Solo Player Guy

These weren't written up with the intention making things easy for the people already at the top. They are there to curb the horrible imbalance bioware let happen. They are there to make the horribly lopsided factions more tolerable to those on the losing side. For the last week, I have done AT LEAST my 6 daily games a day, usually more like 10. I kept track, I won 3. The WHOLE week. Two were the 4v4 arenas I DIDN'T have to fight a premade (the other being a voidstar). Normally I am either top or second from top on medals (I play a vanguard tank, so it's difficult to get damage medals). A serious portion of these games we are stomped so badly you can't get ANY match objective medals, meaning the vast majority of players can't even get their 8 medals just to get the max WZ comms out of a loss.

 

If you don't let the republic get a close # of commendations, the terrible, undergeared players will continue to stay undergeared, and be demoralized into either not playing or just doing their daily (and staying terrible, instead of trying and learning). The incentive to win should be in the challenge at this point, or the shame of a premade losing to a pug. Do you really thing a fully aug'd player with 3 others in voice chat has to worry about losing to a random bolstered player with a 20-30% penalty? I don't.

 

When blizzard was faced with a similar problem, they merged servers or offered free character transfers. There are two problems with this in SWTOR. First, the faction imbalance across ALL servers much more heavily favors the Empire (this is because the empire is just cooler, focus groups should have shown them this and stories and class choices should have been altered accordingly). And second, there is no option to faction xfer, even though the characters are exact mirrors. You can make an arguement about how the class story is not 1:1, but the easy solution is to reset them at the beginning of whatever planet you were on previously (with obvious handling of balmorra vs taris and faction specific planets). They have done none of this, and kinda just let the republic side rot and force PvPers into the empire side (which at this point I'd rather quit given all the work I put into my vanguard).

 

As is, I haven't seen them do a single thing curb premades OR the faction imbalance in any form (even repub winning Star Fighter, and that's still in early access, now is the PERFECT time to take action)... and that sits OK with you?

Interesting but false. It's really dependent on server. Harbinger, as an example, is very Pub dominant. It didn't used to be, but it is now.

I would also suggest, taking the time to learn the warzones and arenas. Take the time to learn different effective strats that help. Learn from your losses. What is the other team doing, and what aren't you doing? How are they geared? If they are taking advantage of the 46/46/46 weapon/off-hand bolster, then you do the same.

I would add that, myself personally, don't think pre-mades are the problem. I've been on a lot, been against a lot, and it realistically seems that only an extremely small handful are highly coordinated, geared, and in a voice chat system. I been beaten by some, and beaten just as many. Most of the time you can pretty much tell it's just people in a guild rotating thru their toons doing dailies and weeklies.

I would also point out that even if they are, all they are really trying to accomplish is playing together with people that know what they are doing. What strats need to happen in order to win. Not so much different than playing a sport. You throw 11 people together on a football field, and who is the quarterback, who are the linemen, the receivers, and the running backs.

What I would suggest doing is finding people on your faction that enjoy pvp, if you do it week in and week out, you'll see them and their guilds a lot. Get to know them, and maybe friend them, and group with them. Maybe learn a little more about strats and tactics.

Right now the big problem is that there is no incentive for ranked teams to play in ranked. I mean think about it, you can only do Arenas, matches don't count to the daily/weekly, you have long queue times even in the group queue and when you do get a pop you're facing the same guys you've faced 1177 times before.

 

Most of the premade teams in regular WZs are not there just for a free PuG stomping. They are there because they want to play 8v8, want to get their daily/weekly done, don;t want to wait 30mins between WZs and don't want to keep facing the same 2 or 3 teams all the time (because it gets boring very quickly).

 

Simply banning all groups from the regular queue is NOT the answer as it will hurt those non-premade groups that simply want to play together socially. Also it will not stop that small number of premades that like to bully PuG (I never said they didn't exists) who will simply queue sync in the solo queues and still get there group into WZs.

 

The answer is to give the ranked teams a reason to play ranked again as right now the only thing they really get from it is a position on the leader-board. I think you could do this with the following changes to the PvP structure:

 

• Return 8v8 to ranked queues
  
• Maximum group size in ranked queue is 4, so for an 8v8 it will be 2x4man vs 2x4man
  
• Introduce a Ranked Daily and Weekly (gives ranked comms)
  
• New "Elite Valor" rating only available from playing ranked, with its own Titles. This could then be used like a reputation system allowing the purchase of unique (non performance enhancing) items from a new vendor (Unique Saber Crystals, weapons, adaptive armour, mounts pets ect). Give ranked players something to spend their comms on once they are fully geared.
  
• Increase the amount for credits awarded for completing the Daily/Weekly missions at all PvP levels, doing PvP dailies should be a viable alternative to running Black Hole or Section X
  
• Halve the number of ranked comms given by the regular Daily/weekly missions (but increase the number of reg comms).
  
• Remove the cap on WZ comms once a player hits 55 but not before.
  
• Remove the ability to buy rankled comms with regular comms. But add the ability to trade comms for Classic and Basic comms instead.
  
• Remove Bolster from ranked PvP, only those with full PvP gear should be entering
  
• Allow players to queue for both ground WZs and GSF at the same time
  
• Introduce an in-game voice chat client for WZs and Ops
  

 

Giving players more rewards for doing ranked will lure teams back, especially if they get to play 8v8 again, as will giving them unique (and cool) titles and cosmetic items, people do like to show off after all

Reducing and limiting the number of ranked comms they can get from regular WZs will also push gear grinders back into ranked.

Removing Bolster from ranked will hopefully mean less undergeared bads trying ranked as their PvE gear will be destroyed due to the lack of Expertise.

Introducing an in-game VOIP system will give PuG the choice to remove one of the premades big advantages, if PuGs choose not to use it then it is there own fault.

 

However even if most ranked teams leave the regular queues there will still be some bullies left, but they will not be able to hide in amongst the decent ranked teams that are just in the regular queues because they is no reason to play in ranked. And since the bullies can no longer hide it will be far easier to call them out and do something about them.

I agree with most of this. I would also suggest that maybe there should be 2 versions of unranked pre-mades as well. One that is exclusively only solo queues, and one that is better rewards but can queue as a group. As an incentive, maybe something like 10/1 to comm/ranked comms. Thus making the grind to 67 gear a little easier.

I also agree that bolster should not be allowed in ranked matches. Hell, if they change the to the system I suggest with pre-made unranked, I'd suggest taking bolster away from that, or from 55 altogether. If they do take bolster away however, their should be something like partisan gear available to buy with creds from a vendor.

I would also agree with the suggestion of removing the cap from comms to someone with full valor, or raise the cap as you hit certain valor levels. It gives people in full incentive to play. Add that in terms of ranked team ratings, there should be a system in place that rewards success and level. Meaning cool gear skins, mounts, and titles. Something that says you earned your status as a good pvper.

I would also suggest some extremely cool rewards that are ranked comms purchasable. Thus a reason for people with ranked comms to burn to continue to pvp. And as thus if you remove the cap, something that could cost say 10,000-20,000 ranked comms. Let's face it, someone pretty dedicated can easily get 3k ranked comms in 1 week pugging. Thus an incentive to work at it.