The Traya fanbase seems to have conveniently forgotten a very particular detail about Exar Kun. He, too, was very capable with Force drain. He used the ability to power the ritual by which he worked his power to willingly become a Dark Side Spirit. Also, after showing his true power to Odan-Urr, the Jedi Master was unable to resist, though he was old, he was certainly very powerful. Still snuffed out by Kun's mere presence.

On the matter of the ritual, the only problem with it was that it was disrupted by not one, but a joint of Jedi Knights and Masters reputed to rank amongst the most powerful Force-users to ever grace the Jedi Order, namely Nomi Sunrider, Master Thon, Tott Doneeta, Sylvar and Oss Willum. And they did not use Sever Force, but rather Wall of Light to entrap Kun on the Temple of Fire. The very reaason they did not turn Sever Force on him suggests that trying to do that with someone as powerful as Exar Kun would be bound to fail.

So perhaps the Force Drain is not so powerful after all, for the similarities that have been stated between it and Sever Force, so Kun just might resist it. Moreover, his area of expertise was actually devoted to a field that Traya had no knowledge of: Sith sorcery. His brushings with the Dark Side also showed him many particular skills Traya was also stated to possess (such as healing oneself with the Force), and his usage of Sith artifacts (as Sadow's Sith Amulet) could offer quite the edge. Could it not perhaps protect its owner? It certainly could be used to devastating effect (the Force Blast being one example). And on top of all that, his great skill as a lightsabre duelist (coming on top of his Master, Vodo-Siosk Baas, even when he was an Apprentice under his tutelage).

Despite his heavy reliance on the Force, I do believe that, due to the fact that Traya herself also relied heavily on the Force, Exar Kun was able to exercise Force drain and that the Drain itself might not be as powerful as people are fond of believing, Kun would come on top.

The Traya fanbase seems to have conveniently forgotten a very particular detail about Exar Kun. He, too, was very capable with Force drain. He used the ability to power the ritual by which he worked his power to willingly become a Dark Side Spirit. Also, after showing his true power to Odan-Urr, the Jedi Master was unable to resist, though he was old, he was certainly very powerful. Still snuffed out by Kun's mere presence.

 

On the matter of the ritual, the only problem with it was that it was disrupted by not one, but a joint of Jedi Knights and Masters reputed to rank amongst the most powerful Force-users to ever grace the Jedi Order, namely Nomi Sunrider, Master Thon, Tott Doneeta, Sylvar and Oss Willum. And they did not use Sever Force, but rather Wall of Light to entrap Kun on the Temple of Fire. The very reaason they did not turn Sever Force on him suggests that trying to do that with someone as powerful as Exar Kun would be bound to fail.

 

So perhaps the Force Drain is not so powerful after all, for the similarities that have been stated between it and Sever Force, so Kun just might resist it. Moreover, his area of expertise was actually devoted to a field that Traya had no knowledge of: Sith sorcery. His brushings with the Dark Side also showed him many particular skills Traya was also stated to possess (such as healing oneself with the Force), and his usage of Sith artifacts (as Sadow's Sith Amulet) could offer quite the edge. Could it not perhaps protect its owner? It certainly could be used to devastating effect (the Force Blast being one example). And on top of all that, his great skill as a lightsabre duelist (coming on top of his Master, Vodo-Siosk Baas, even when he was an Apprentice under his tutelage).

 

Despite his heavy reliance on the Force, I do believe that, due to the fact that Traya herself also relied heavily on the Force, Exar Kun was able to exercise Force drain and that the Drain itself might not be as powerful as people are fond of believing, Kun would come on top.

*applauds* very well put, far better post than any of the ones I made, a lot of mine I didn't want to post because it sounded borderline praise rather than fact, so many kudos for finding a way to present his true power without sounding like a fanboy(much like I did).

The Traya fanbase seems to have conveniently forgotten a very particular detail about Exar Kun. He, too, was very capable with Force drain. He used the ability to power the ritual by which he worked his power to willingly become a Dark Side Spirit. Also, after showing his true power to Odan-Urr, the Jedi Master was unable to resist, though he was old, he was certainly very powerful. Still snuffed out by Kun's mere presence.

 

On the matter of the ritual, the only problem with it was that it was disrupted by not one, but a joint of Jedi Knights and Masters reputed to rank amongst the most powerful Force-users to ever grace the Jedi Order, namely Nomi Sunrider, Master Thon, Tott Doneeta, Sylvar and Oss Willum. And they did not use Sever Force, but rather Wall of Light to entrap Kun on the Temple of Fire. The very reaason they did not turn Sever Force on him suggests that trying to do that with someone as powerful as Exar Kun would be bound to fail.

 

So perhaps the Force Drain is not so powerful after all, for the similarities that have been stated between it and Sever Force, so Kun just might resist it. Moreover, his area of expertise was actually devoted to a field that Traya had no knowledge of: Sith sorcery. His brushings with the Dark Side also showed him many particular skills Traya was also stated to possess (such as healing oneself with the Force), and his usage of Sith artifacts (as Sadow's Sith Amulet) could offer quite the edge. Could it not perhaps protect its owner? It certainly could be used to devastating effect (the Force Blast being one example). And on top of all that, his great skill as a lightsabre duelist (coming on top of his Master, Vodo-Siosk Baas, even when he was an Apprentice under his tutelage).

 

Despite his heavy reliance on the Force, I do believe that, due to the fact that Traya herself also relied heavily on the Force, Exar Kun was able to exercise Force drain and that the Drain itself might not be as powerful as people are fond of believing, Kun would come on top.

But on to the main point, the problem here is that we are assuming that Sever Force = Force Drain. It does not. You are correct to point out the similarities, but the differences are of vital importance. Sever Force is an all or nothing attack, it either severs the victim, or it doesn't. Force Drain does exactly what it says on the tin, it drains the target. It is not a one shot ability, only against a considerably inferior opponent, but it will have some effect on even the most powerful of Force users, because there is no defense against it. So while Exar Kun will certainly not be killed, he will be affected, the magnitude of the effect depending on the disparity between Kun and Traya's abilities.

And I think we have substantial evidence to suggest that the disparity is by no means large. Both were exceptionally powerful Force users capable of subduing other Force users of considerably caliber with ease. Also noting that there is no 'cut off point' where Force drain stops working. Traya can drain Exar Kun dry is he let her simply by continuously zapping him in short bursts or a continuous stream. So Kun has to defeat Traya as quickly as possible before he grows to weak to defeat her.

And as a side not I'd also point out the Kun's variant of Force Drain was not the same as Traya's as it was a product of Sith Ritual, not something he is exactly capable of recreating in the midst of a battle. And that Kun didn't seem to favour Force powers in combat much at all. Though not to say he won't use them.

Concerning the Force blast, I've gone over this already but I'll point out again that it is by no means a one-shot kill. Kun was incapable of killing Aleema Keto with it of whom Traya is likely vastly more powerful than. So I doubt it will cause Traya grievous injury, remembering that she is a master over Force healing. Essentially she can restore herself to full health after Kun lands an attack the only way he can kill her is with blow.

To sum it up, in any pitched battle, Kun will grow progressively weaker and Traya continuously stronger. On the other hand Kun has no way of wearing Traya down effectively, as any injuries she suffers she can recover from - just like those pesky Healers types you encounter in warzones Traya will prove very difficult to kill. The only way I see Traya dying is through being overwhelmed in lightsaber combat, but with a strong defensive form - i.e. Soresu - he can hold out against his onslaughts fairly well, and with each bout Kun will be weaker.

In reality, if Traya survives the first attack, Kun is as good as dead.

NOTE: I'm still considering Exar Kun as Exar Kun pre-ritual. Regardless of whether he was a spirit or not when the ritual was completed. I see no reason and have no desire to wade into a quagmire of speculation on exactly how powerful he was when bolstered by 50,000 Massassai. From a combat perspective this is essentially an entirely new character, and one we possess no information on at all. Hopefully Aurbere will bear that in mind when the BattleZone returns.

SPEAKING OF WHICH.

Concerning the Force blast, I've gone over this already but I'll point out again that it is by no means a one-shot kill. Kun was incapable of killing Aleema Keto with it of whom Traya is likely vastly more powerful than.

And you seem to have ignored my point about Aleema Keto only being knocked out because she herself was a master sorceress, something Traya absolutely wasn't, she summoned a barrier of Dark Side Energy after Exar Kun absorbed her attack, taking a look at the use of Force Blast through the times, it is very very clear that only sorcerers with knowledge of Force Blast are capable of defending against it with any measure of success, Traya is not one of those sorcerers.

The larger the disparity in power between two sorcerers is the difference in effect but even the most powerful sorcerers could not outright defend successfully against Exar Kun's blast, Aleema was out cold and she had summoned something she had quite the proficiency with, a shield/barrier made of pure Dark Side energy, it still knocked her out cold for a day.

When Ommin used it against Nomi and Ulic they had no defence against it and barely managed to get sufficiently out of the way before it hit them full on, Ulic knew the longer the battle took the larger the chance they were killed so before Ommin could summon an even deadlier blast, he got sliced and diced by Qel-Droma.

The fact that Ommin would have killed Nomi and/or Ulic with his attack is most telling, Ommin is nowhere near as powerful as Exar Kun is and the evidence supports the notion that pure Dark Side energy has no defence... apart from other pure Dark Side energy, we saw this clear as day when Bane fought Zannah, he had no defence against those Tendrils, lightsaber nor force barriers worked.

Aleema's survival is not a reason to support the assertion that Exar Kun's force blast isn't deadly, now obviously a Force Blast does not have a definite chance of killing a target, it does however cause serious injury and maiming when it isn't successfully defended against, or in a more extreme case a charged blast with no defence causes total disintegration of the target.

However Jensaarai has made the point that the effect of a Force Blast depends on how much energy is charged, it varies in effect, a short blast knocks you out a charged blast causes severe injury, a blast that is either charged significantly or empowered by rage can disintegrate.

This would give an ample reason for why Kun a lot of the time fights one handed even with both blades ignited, so he can charge an attack whilst he is duelling which is very very effective, instead of standing about and waiting to charge up he engages his opponent with his lightsaber.

Though this is merely Jensaarai's observation, what I have posted is evidence to support or rather debunk the idea that Exar Kun's Force Blasts aren't very dangerous and a lot of the time lethal.

And you seem to have ignored my point about Aleema Keto only being knocked out because she herself was a master sorceress, something Traya absolutely wasn't, she summoned a barrier of Dark Side Energy after Exar Kun absorbed her attack, taking a look at the use of Force Blast through the times, it is very very clear that only sorcerers with knowledge of Force Blast are capable of defending against it with any measure of success, Traya is not one of those sorcerers.

 

The larger the disparity in power between two sorcerers is the difference in effect but even the most powerful sorcerers could not outright defend successfully against Exar Kun's blast, Aleema was out cold and she had summoned something she had quite the proficiency with, a shield/barrier made of pure Dark Side energy, it still knocked her out cold for a day.

 

When Ommin used it against Nomi and Ulic they had no defence against it and barely managed to get sufficiently out of the way before it hit them full on, Ulic knew the longer the battle took the larger the chance they were killed so before Ommin could summon an even deadlier blast, he got sliced and diced by Qel-Droma.

 

The fact that Ommin would have killed Nomi and/or Ulic with his attack is most telling, Ommin is nowhere near as powerful as Exar Kun is and the evidence supports the notion that pure Dark Side energy has no defence... apart from other pure Dark Side energy, we saw this clear as day when Bane fought Zannah, he had no defence against those Tendrils, lightsaber nor force barriers worked.

 

Aleema's survival is not a reason to support the assertion that Exar Kun's force blast isn't deadly, now obviously a Force Blast does not have a definite chance of killing a target, it does however cause serious injury and maiming when it isn't successfully defended against, or in a more extreme case a charged blast with no defence causes total disintegration of the target.

 

However Jensaarai has made the point that the effect of a Force Blast depends on how much energy is charged, it varies in effect, a short blast knocks you out a charged blast causes severe injury, a blast that is either charged significantly or empowered by rage can disintegrate.

 

This would give an ample reason for why Kun a lot of the time fights one handed even with both blades ignited, so he can charge an attack whilst he is dueling which is very very effective, instead of standing about and waiting to charge up he engages his opponent with his lightsaber.

 

Though this is merely Jensaarai's observation, what I have posted is evidence to support or rather debunk the idea that Exar Kun's Force Blasts aren't very dangerous and a lot of the time lethal.

Would she be knocked unconscious? Unlikely. I maintain the argument that as a vastly more powerful Force user than Keto she is is much better stead to resist his power. King Ommin for one should not be underestimated, we have no evidence to suggest that he was nothing short of a considerably powerful Force user. Arca Jeth at least percieved him as so, and on top of that I believe Ommin was empowered both by Freedon Nadd himself and Sith amulets. That's a lot of amps. Without that I doubt his attacks would have been nearly as effective.

I have no doubt that Kun's attack will have a potent effect on Traya and likely temporarily incapacitate her, but she wont just fade into unconsciousness or writhe around in pain. She has a much stronger will than that and her master over Force healing will overcome any injury that Kun inflicts on her.

In terms of application in battle, Kun has never used Force based attacks in combat. So I doubt he will begin with one here. But in the instance that he does not only would Traya have likely had an opportunity to drain his power, but she is certainly not going to give him enough time to charge an attack. And in reality is more than capable of simply evading such a strike. Also noting that rushing in with his blade then blasting her back will not exactly be an effective tactic, as he is in fact pushing his opponent away from him. Giving Traya time to recover and mount a counter attack before Kun engages her with a the blade.

I wouldn't put too much stock in Exar Kun killing Odan Urr - which I expect was some via sort of Force Affliction attack. Odan Urr was not as powerful as Exar Kun in his prime, and over the years likely grew old and frail i.e. weaker in the Force. Making him an easy target for an empowered being such as Kun. Remembering that Traya just as easily broke through Sion's Force Barriers and choked him. I doubt she would have had much trouble doing the same to Urr. And Exar Kun certainly won't be capable of killing Traya so easily.

Odan-urr's connection to the Force did not wither because of his age. Neither did that of someone like Yoda. So being able to break the will of someone like Urr is quite the feat, because the will did not grow weaker with age. Given that we do not know precisely what Kun did that got the Jedi Master killed, it is a frailer point not worth going over in too much detail. There is one thing worthy of note, however, and that is whatever Kun did, he did it with great ease.

By the way, the only one dealing in ease of defeat of one over the other is not me, it is you, who seems to think Traya can take someone like Kun like a walk in the park. WHich is wrong on both counts, it sure as hell wouldn't be easy, even if she could, and, well, she couldn't take him down anyways Just teasing, on with the argument.

But on to the main point, the problem here is that we are assuming that Sever Force = Force Drain. It does not. You are correct to point out the similarities, but the differences are of vital importance. Sever Force is an all or nothing attack, it either severs the victim, or it doesn't. Force Drain does exactly what it says on the tin, it drains the target. It is not a one shot ability, only against a considerably inferior opponent, but it will have some effect on even the most powerful of Force users, because there is no defense against it. So while Exar Kun will certainly not be killed, he will be affected, the magnitude of the effect depending on the disparity between Kun and Traya's abilities.

Again, nobody assumed Sever Force = Force Drain. And I didn't say FD was all-or-nothing. But wasn't it really? Were Vrook, Zez-Kai Ell and Kavar so weak that she could just pop up and drain them dead as she did? No. So the best guess is - the unsuspecting Jedi thought the worst wound was the Exile, so they couldn't be prepared to face Traya when she suddenly revealed herself to them, allowing her to easily bypass their defences. Assuming she might be able to catch Kun off guard is placing a condition for an "easy win" on her part. If she stood up and faced him, would she be able to drain him dead? Would she be able to drain three Jedi Masters dead? My guess is no.

And I think we have substantial evidence to suggest that the disparity is by no means large. Both were exceptionally powerful Force users capable of subduing other Force users of considerably caliber with ease. Also noting that there is no 'cut off point' where Force drain stops working. Traya can drain Exar Kun dry is he let her simply by continuously zapping him in short bursts or a continuous stream. So Kun has to defeat Traya as quickly as possible before he grows to weak to defeat her.

You spoke a key sentence- if he let her. He could fling a Jedi Master across a room. If Traya needed to focus her power, that would most definetly crank her style. All the while having to fend off his saber skills, which bested the greatest duelist of his day - Vodo-siosk Baas. Assuming Force Drain did affect Kun on a scale large enough to cut his ability to call to the Force, she would still have to contend with his awesome form, and a double-bladed lightsaber.

And as a side not I'd also point out the Kun's variant of Force Drain was not the same as Traya's as it was a product of Sith Ritual, not something he is exactly capable of recreating in the midst of a battle. And that Kun didn't seem to favour Force powers in combat much at all. Though not to say he won't use them.

Traya wasn't like the Exile and Nihilus - she wasn't a wound in the Force, she merely learned the techniques of the Force Drain as they were performed by the Old Sith Empire. And she says it herself - exercising that power seemed to create a sort of addiction, which she seemed to wish to control (otherwise she would be just like Nihilus). So, you are wrong. Maybe her Force Drain isn't all that different from Exar Kun's. And while Kun employed his power during a ritual does not mean he couldn't employ it anywhere else - what is the meaning of all the rituals performed when working the great feats of sorcery? Darth Plagueis, for instance, theorised the rituals were merely trappings to conceal the exercise of the sheer strength of will. If Plagueis, which was the closest the Sith ever had to a scientist of the Force, was correct, then Kun would be able to work his drain whenever he wanted, especially given the guy's natural knack at bending the Force to his will.

Concerning the Force blast, I've gone over this already but I'll point out again that it is by no means a one-shot kill. Kun was incapable of killing Aleema Keto with it of whom Traya is likely vastly more powerful than. So I doubt it will cause Traya grievous injury, remembering that she is a master over Force healing. Essentially she can restore herself to full health after Kun lands an attack the only way he can kill her is with blow.

When combating a lightsaber wielder, there are many things you must be attentive to. If you get flung across a room, that might be enough for the opponent to leap after you and impale you before you can say 'force drain'. It would not kill Traya, most of Kun's attacks would not ('cept the ole lightsabre through the heart), but it gives him an edge not worth waiving.

To sum it up, in any pitched battle, Kun will grow progressively weaker and Traya continuously stronger. On the other hand Kun has no way of wearing Traya down effectively, as any injuries she suffers she can recover from - just like those pesky Healers types you encounter in warzones Traya will prove very difficult to kill. The only way I see Traya dying is through being overwhelmed in lightsaber combat, but with a strong defensive form - i.e. Soresu - he can hold out against his onslaughts fairly well, and with each bout Kun will be weaker.

Assuming her Force Drain would work. Did Sidious drain Yoda? Did Traya drain Darth Sion? Did Vitiate, the all-time master of the skill, drain the Hero of Tython? No. And why not? This suggests wielding it either required too great an effort for it to be worthwhile when combating really powerful Force-users, or it just might not work. Maybe both. Darth Bane was reputedly able to drain almost anyone to death, instantly. But the effort he had to put up with made it rather ungainly to use in combat, and when you are facing the Dark Lord of the Sith in his prime, that's a liability you cannot afford.

And on the "heal injuries instantly". Where the hell did you get that from? From the fact you can have her learn the game-mechanics-related Force Heal skill (which is a light side power not banned to Dark Side for game mechanics purposes), then I'm not buying it. Nowhere in her trajectory is she described as having those awesome healing powers.

Besides, Force Healing isn't as prolific as we see it in videogame mechanics. It couldn't regenerate lost tissue (lightsaber burn, anyone?), and the only Dark Siders mentioned to have any skill in the ability needed to work a great effort of will and channelling their anger to have temporary restoration of their ailments (Vader worked it to survive being charred - survive, not be healed) and Bane used it to fight poisons (though he could not cure himself). And of course, there's Sion, who could walk about after being killed a bazillion times. But he was veritably a walking corpse, held together only by his will. To suggest Traya would be capable of similar feats is quite the stretch, seeing as she squirms and writhes in pain and agony when Sion only cuts off her hand, only controlling her pain once she gets some time to breathe when the Sith Lord was no longer all over her. The only Sith Lord to actually perform true permanent self-healing was Darth Plagueis, after surviving an assault by Maladian assassins and very long research into the Force.

In reality, if Traya survives the first attack, Kun is as good as dead.

Agree to disagree man. You make a strong case, but it all depends on FD working to such a great extent. Which is not seen anywhere else than a surprise attack by Kreia on unsuspecting Jedi masters.

NOTE: I'm still considering Exar Kun as Exar Kun pre-ritual. Regardless of whether he was a spirit or not when the ritual was completed. I see no reason and have no desire to wade into a quagmire of speculation on exactly how powerful he was when bolstered by 50,000 Massassai. From a combat perspective this is essentially an entirely new character, and one we possess no information on at all. Hopefully Aurbere will bear that in mind when the BattleZone returns.

Nobody brought that situation up to prove any sort of power, except the power that Kun could display to drain however many Massassi he did when he performed his gimmick. Meaning, I mentioned it to remind people Kun wasn't ignorant of Force Drain, and that being the case, he might know how to counter it and be unaffected, or give Traya a taste of her own medicine.

SPEAKING OF WHICH.

Speaking of which what?

In short, you have naught but praise for Traya's skills, all's fine. I personally think they pale in comparison to someone who woke the Emperor, so to speak (Marka Ragnos, who was summoned by the bursts of power during his duel with Ulic), and was declared by him the returned Dark Lord of the Sith. And besides, all I did here was contrast what skills you think would be defining to determine a possible victory for Traya. You listed all her reputed skills (except the telekinetic combat), and I countered them with abilities Kun has, without mentioning all of his powers. Like his vast knowledge of Sith sorcery from Sadow's own private stash.

Regardless, Exar Kun can attack her a lot faster than she can retaliate to, good luck evading him when he has high proficiency in the acrobatic elements of Ataru which itself is heavily buffed by his skill with Force Flight, he can duel rings around her he is one of the all time best duellists ever, she has never been stated to have mastered any lightsaber forms, she has displayed knowledge of all the forms, mastery is a big no, all Kun has to do is get in close, this is something he can do with ease.

Sure Traya has her tricks, Kun has a very powerful Force Sense and precognitive abilities that allowed him to see the Jedi Order and their tactics before they even arrived in the system, on a lesser Sith Lord her tricks would not work effectively, against a Sith Lord of Exar Kun's calibre she is going to have an extremely difficult time.

But it is obvious, this Force Drain no matter how you twist it is literally called a Dark Side variation of the Sever Force ability in the canon, Exar Kun was obviously beyond the power of the combined might of the Jedi Order, there were many highly proficient users of the Sever Force ability whom had many chances to take him down, but they didn't because Exar Kun was more powerful than they could hope to effect with their own powers.

It is obvious that Exar Kun was too powerful to be effected by the Sever Force technique, the same cannot be said for Darth Traya in the heart of Malachor V however, as one Jedi was able to sever her connection, at least partially, where as the entire Jedi Order on Coruscant clearly had no way to save the Senate or the many dignitaries that got massacred by both Kun and Qel-Droma, as I stated earlier, many of the Jedi with the power to sever the connections of others did not attempt to do the same to Exar Kun during the many chances they had to do so.

I think Traya's ability to simply drain Kun of his power is being overstated, it is clear that her power has significant roots in the regular Sever Force ability and that is undeniable.

But take away Force Drain from Traya and she could not defeat the Jedi Exile in the heart of Malachor V, even after the Exile had fought through her Sith Triumvirate and then took down Darth Sion, all the while the Exile was suffering through this:

"She had visited Malachor V years after the cataclysm of the mass-shadow generator. Traversing it's surface had been agony. Mentally, she had still sensed the anguish of all who had lost their lives there. Physically, the intense gravity of the world had held her in it's crushing grip, leaving her gasping for breathe. It had been the most awful and horrific experience of her life..." - Star Wars: The Old Republic - Revan, pg.220

Exar Kun is clearly more powerful than the Jedi Exile, yet the Jedi Exile took down the entire remainder of the Triumvirate single-handedly whilst extremely ill in the heart of the most powerful Dark Side Nexus any planet has ever held, Exar Kun would be heavily buffed by this place and would most likely have an extremely easy time of it summoning his Force Blast technique, his lightsaber technique is completely based on Force Power it heavily draws upon it, he has the, if not one of the most powerful wells of Dark Side energy ever seen to drawn on.

*snip*

That said, Kun is capable of winning also. But I prefer the idea of Traya winning.

Anyway, I'll address your paragraphs numerically:

1. My point here is that one can't just erect a wall and block it out. No matter how powerful one is it will bypass your defences and it will sap at your Force energy. That is what we are dealing with here. Given that its irrelevant whether the Jedi Council were ready or not, no conventional defense they could have created could have protected them from Traya's attack, only their own personal Force ability would protect them, and that was found lacking. This is the kind of power we are dealing with here, much like Sith Magic it cannot be defended against.

2. And deliberately so, all I was pointing out is that Traya has the potential to kill him with Force drain. But Kun isn't just going to stand idly by, however in this situation his only defense is offense, he need to kill Traya quickly, and Soresu users are not quickly overwhelmed. Also remembering that Force drain can be performed instantly, or at least is portrayed as such through in game mechanics, however reliable you may consider them. Now yes, Traya has an extremely skilled duelist to contend with here, but lets remember she is more than capable of forcing a Force based engagement via Force pushes, waves etc. and fast enough to keep it that way. Also remembering that with each break in Kun's attack, Traya has an opportunity to strike, and Kun's offense weakens.

3. I'm not wrong, they are different. Traya explains that one can only use Force drain in the manner in which she and her allies do by experiencing the effects 'first hand' - Exar Kun has not done this, therefore he relies on Sith Alchemy and ritual to perform it. I'd speculate that this is likely because being touched by such power leaves a small wound inside you, which in turn can be used to siphon the power of others.

4. I'd just point out here that Traya has stabbed herself in the chest and survived. I'd also point out she has excellent abilities in precognition, and also has supernatural reflexes, both of which she could use to dodge any follow up attacks that Kun attempts while she's down. And then of course we have a simple Force push.

5. Again I'd point to 3. these individuals simply didn't possess the capability - excluding Traya who didn't want to kill Sion. Indeed you should add Kun to that list, who also never used it in a combat situation. I'd also point out the differences between Deadly Field and Force Drain. I'd speculate that they have completely different mechanics as they do not operate in the same way, but I'd also point out that Bane created a field of energy, while Traya produces 'bolts' i.e. the difference between Force lightning and a Force storm - the latter requires much more energy. Add to that the fact that Traya is more powerful than Bane, and Traya seemed unphased when she killed the entire Jedi Council.

6. Recall the events of KOTOR 2. Most notably when Traya revives Colonel Tobin and Hanharr from mortal injuries with little time or effort, and when she impales herself and recovers after a short amount of time. Also look at the various accounts of Force healing being used, and not how the results are produced quickly. Traya has shown herself to be a master healer, so I see no reason why she cannot heal herself even more rapidly than these.

And finally, if you believe Force drain and Force healing is all Traya has to offer, then you are very mistaken indeed. She also has shatterpoint by which she can recognize and exploit the weaknesses of her opponent, she is also capable of cloaking herself from Force sense and from view at any given time, she is also capable of manipulating the body of her opponent through Force healing also, she has remarkable skills in precognition, and she has incredible reflexes, able to dodge lightsaber strikes unarmed without suffering a scratch and she is able to fall into a Force Form in which her Force abilities are bolstered at no expense. She will bring all of these skills to the table, and in combination with her other abilities I feel it is enough to bring Kun down.

On the other hand in terms of Force powers, Kun has only ever used Force blast and various telekinetic attacks, but never has he done so in lightsaber combat. Don't expect him to pull out his spellbook.

Well, you did say if Kun didn't kill her on strike one, he was as good as dead. WHich is a highly disputable statement, but off the point.

1. You do not know that. She may have stated there was no defence against such a power, but the long list I mentioned suggests otherwise. Vitiate was the guy who taught them all their abilities (Kreia and Revan), for all I know, and he did not once use it to offer the Hero a most painful, dreadful and absolute death.

2. Traya was an extremely skilled duelist. Kun was the icing on the cake when it came to lightsaber dueling. He wasn't an extremely skilled duelist. He was the most skilled duelist of his day, able to top the greatest Jedi duelist of his time, Vodo Baas, even before he attained the full power of the Dark Lord of the Sith. And on the time required for the Drain to actually have an effect on Kun, for the reasons I've listed before (inexistance of examples of actual Sith Lords actually using the Drain to devastating effect in combat), I think EK would have plenty of time to deal with the pretender and still be home in time for breakfast. Game mechanics obviously have no bearing - they're concerned with unrequired flair and mechanics balance. And last but not least, Exar Kun was greatly strong in the Force. He may favour lightsaber skills in combat, he is still very powerful in the Force. More than Kreia? There's no way to tell. I would be inclined to say yes (Marka Ragnos did make him Dark Lord of the Sith, Kreia just happened upon the rank, inheriting it from the redeemed Revan and the dumb Malak). So if forced to measure up Force powers, he would be more than Kreia's match, with his repertory of handy powers, including Force Blast, and the aforementioned pushes, pulls, chokes and whatever the hell not.

I can also add another point to this discussion: Kun in his prime was a young man, bristling with the Force and with great strength to match. Kreia, when she "finally" learned her trump card (and quite honestly the only thing that might give her an edge), Force Drain, she was already old, blind, withered and rather willing to rely more on the Force than she did on her lightsaber skills. Are you saying the reflexes of the old woman would be a match to Kun's? She could enhance them with the Force, and so could Kun. So she would have no edge.

3. Traya believed the Force drain was irrevocably bound to wounds in the Force. That doesn't mean that is set on stone. Kun's use of the ability is evidence that it wasn't necessarily true. Also, you seem to spin things around. Kun didn't perform a ritual to drain the life force of the Massassi so as to empower himself. He performed a ritual to transfer his essence, which required him to shed the lives of all those Massassi, as a means to empower the ritual to leave his body behind. He used Force Drain on them all to kill them, and have the power he needed. SO he needed Force Drain to complete the ritual, not the other way around.

4. I'd forgotten that instance when she stabs herself in the chest. In what instance does she do that? And on the precog, Kun has similar abilities, being able to sense the future as all Force-sensitive individuals.

5. Vitiate possessed the damn ability. It was Revan's contact with him that showed him how to work the trick himself. Remember Traya's words: "they're the results of special teachings". WHose teachings? Her own? If so, how did she learn them in the first place? The answer is simple - Sith survivors on Malachor. Survivor's of Revan's empire, who learned the skill from his contact with Vitiate himself. On the contrast between Drain and Deadly Field, Bane's skill is described as 'withering away everything and everyone that came within the ability's reach' or something along those lines. Sounds a lot like FD to me, albeit applied to a different extent. The "field of death" so to speak, was applied by Nihilus (Traya said he constantly drained upon those close to him, giving them a slow but certain death), so it might be consciously channelled by Bane into what you call Deadly Field.

6. I'd forgotten those too. But Hanharr doesn't apply - he was knocked out, and she merely awoke him and left him in pain. And Tobin, well, I don't know how well her healing went on, the guy looked like a corpse after being brought back. And on both of these counts, she worked the power when she had time to breathe, not when she had the greatest Dark Lord of the Sith since Marka Ragnos breathing over her neck. The only other situation in which she was in serious trouble was on her confrontation against Sion, when he cut off her hand, she squirmed in pain. So any wound received in combat would certainly be very serious on Traya, as much as it would be to Kun if she could butter him up with a lightsabre as well.

Her cloak is also not absolute, and required that she kept a low profile. Draining people for life isn't exactly keeping a low profile, so it can only help her so much when in open combat with another Sith Lord of Kun's calibre. The Force form is also game-mechanics, so I wouldn't consider it.

On Kun's choice of weapon - his strength perhaps was in his lightsaber skills. But when you see such Force-users as Yoda, Dooku and Sidious - none of them relied on the Force too much during duels. Dooku starts his duel with Yoda by blasting lightning and throwing rubble at him. But then, he pulls his sabre and says "It is clear that this contest cannot be resolved by our knowledge of the Force, but by our skills with a lightsabre" The only Force power he works after that is to secure his escape when it became clear victory against Yoda would come perhaps only too late. Sidious goes through the entire battle with Windu and the other Masters with only his lightsabre to his side, falling to the lightning only after all else failed. Yoda also only used the Force significantly when confronting Sidious (though perhaps that was because of the Jedi teachings to use the Force only sparingly). And Sidious only shifted to his Force powers on the duel when he saw there was a clear advantage in doing so: Yoda at a lower ground, and with plenty of things to use as projectiles.

It seems to me that it is the same case with Kun - he wasn't handicapped when it came to Force powers (as the Sith Warrior/Jedi Knight classes are in the game), but when facing another Jedi or Sith, he could use the quickest weapon he had in hand to deal with his foe in a timely fashion. We see him dueling three times. On Dantooine, training under Vodo, he couldn't use the Force because the point of sparring is not to overcome the foe by whatever means, but rather simply pit the raw skill of one duelist against the other. Then, once again on the Iron Citadel at Cinnagar, when he dueled Qel-droma, he was facing one of the greatest Jedi of his time, who had his lightsabre already in hand. SO the obvious choice is engaging him. And last but not least, his duel with Vodo on Coruscant, where he was pitted against the Weapon Master of the Order - greatest Jedi duelist of his day.

So, on all of these duels, he could overcome his foes with just a lightsaber. Which doesn't mean he would be incapable of wielding the Force in combat. What we see in the movies (and in the EU before videogames) is usually the same approach - little Force powers on lightsaber duels. It's the Dungeons and Dragons-like nature of KotOR and TOR that put Force-users barfing Force powers every other second. In my opinion, it's a departure from the lore. But that's beside the point - Kun was extremely powerful in the Force, and being a Darksider especially suited to wielding Force powers also in combat, if the need arises. It never did.

Also, I would like to end this discussion right now I've been a part of my share of heated and endless forum discussions, so I recognise them when I see them. This is one xD You may reply, but we are already repeating arguments here, I won't add anything else. Except for this.

KotOR 1 and 2 were a great disappointment to me because, of all the mistakes and butcheries of the Expanded Universe, and they committed plenty of those, they also committed the worst: they trivialised real power. In K1 you have instant Force heals worming their way into canon, and Sith Lords happily hippity hopping about and draining the Force to heal their wounds and sustain the battle so long as they had victims. But K2 was even worse. One can hide from everyone and tamper with the memories of Jedi Masters with no effort at all. ANother was chopped up thrice by a lightsabre and got back up everytime. And the last, and most absurd of them all, was a life sink who could just travel to any place for a meal, and eat up the entire population with no effort, then move on to the next meal. KotOR 2's excesses in trivialisation are at the core of this discussion, as before that, Force drain was sort of a big deal, something only a few could actually work, and not to the extent displayed in the videogame, and certainly not to kill a consortium of Jedi Masters and Knights gathering on a planet of Force-sensitive sentients. Surely they wove an interesting tale to go with it, and try to explain it, but it remains what it always was, since inception. Too much power with no real effort. It turned the Sith Lords created after that not into very cool creatures, as Darth Sidious, Darth Vader, Darth Tyranus, Exar Kun and Naga Sadow were. It turned them into contestants on who has the most overblown and absurd Dark Side secret. This Force Power arms race, which I see starting at KotOR 1 and 2, is slowly killing the franchise to me.

Gladly, however, TOR put a rein in the absurd, mending many of the previous mistakes, and making really odd and powerful Force powers very rare. Vitiate's Force drain is very unique, the sole reason why he remains the Emperor, while the Sith Lords of TOR have once again become interesting creatures, defined not by a cranky "cool" power (no better definition for the Triumvirate: Lord of Pain, Lord of Hunger and Lord of Betrayal, putting on the pedestal the very overblown power they displayed), but rather their personality. Zash and Baras are the best examples of this. But I digress. Kun takes on Traya, end of story