No, Palpatine spent almost the whole fight laughing at him.

 

The Jedi are fearsome opponents because they can see a few seconds into the future, and for centuries, they practiced their martial styles based on that assumption. The movies mention several times that the Dark side obscures this prescience, which is probably why Jedi, who have lightning fast reflexes in every other scene, fumble so easily when faced with someone they have trouble predicting. They are effectively fighting with blinders on. I really think the only reason Windu lasted as long as he did was because Palpatine had to keep him alive long enough for Anakin to get there and witness the attack. As soon as he did, and made his choice, the fight was over.

 

So were all those clone troopers who gunned down multiple Jedi Masters actually Sith Lords in disguise? Outside of the big 'visions' I think the whole Jedi Precognition thing is vastly overstated. At best it seems to be heightened reflexes, and maybe (a la the Yoda scene on Wookieworld) a flash of warning. But seeing a few seconds into the future, not so much.

 

Honestly, it was a stupid plan to begin with; gee, I don't like the current elected official, so I'll just wander into his office and murder him, and then everything will be fine. It was almost as stupid a plan as abruptly sending a bunch of Jedi to arrest him... Sidious won that fight the moment he was elected Supreme Chancellor at the end of Episode I, and everything after that was just the Jedi slowly realizing they'd already lost.

 

Uh, that's kind of a gross oversimplification It's not like they just had disagreements with Palpatine's economic policy or something. He was revealed as a Sith, the most ancient and deadly enemy of both the Jedi and the Republic. Pretty much every major conflict in galactic history, and every major threat to the Republic, has come from the Sith.

 

Which kind of goes toward what you said about challenging Palpatine direclty being hubris. If there was ever a time to gamble everything..that was pretty much it, after thousands of years the Sith were on the verge of final, complete victory over the Jedi Order and the Republic, not really the time to become contemplative and practice humility and restraint.

The idea I get about Ataru forum (the lightsaber form Yoda uses) is that it's so acrobatic and energy inefficient that if you don't dispatch your opponent quickly you will inevitably lose from exhaustion.

So were all those clone troopers who gunned down multiple Jedi Masters actually Sith Lords in disguise? Outside of the big 'visions' I think the whole Jedi Precognition thing is vastly overstated.

 

It's what got Anakin through the pod race, according to the movies, so there's supposed to be something to it.

 

If you have one or two clones firing at a Jedi, they've got to react to one or two angles of fire, modified slightly by variables (always in motion is future). The more you have, the more variables exist, so by the time you have an army of clones facing you with hundreds if not thousands of rifles pointed at you, the number of escape routes dwindles from, 'hey look at my lightning reflexes' and becomes 'which clone I would I like to shoot me'.

It's what got Anakin through the pod race, according to the movies, so there's supposed to be something to it.

 

If you have one or two clones firing at a Jedi, they've got to react to one or two angles of fire, modified slightly by variables (always in motion is future). The more you have, the more variables exist, so by the time you have an army of clones facing you with hundreds if not thousands of rifles pointed at you, the number of escape routes dwindles from, 'hey look at my lightning reflexes' and becomes 'which clone I would I like to shoot me'.

 

I'm not talking about the 'offscreen' deaths. I'm talking about the onscreen ones where powerful Jedi Masters are caught completely offguard and gunned down by 3 or 4 troopers. Aayla Secura, Ki Adi Mundi, etc.

 

Made worse by the fact that Lucas has explicitly stated that there was no 'special programming' in the Clones of any kind, so can't pass it off as some kind of switch going off in their heads that the Jedi couldn't have predicted.

No, Palpatine spent almost the whole fight laughing at him.

 

The Jedi are fearsome opponents because they can see a few seconds into the future, and for centuries, they practiced their martial styles based on that assumption. The movies mention several times that the Dark side obscures this prescience, which is probably why Jedi, who have lightning fast reflexes in every other scene, fumble so easily when faced with someone they have trouble predicting. They are effectively fighting with blinders on. I really think the only reason Windu lasted as long as he did was because Palpatine had to keep him alive long enough for Anakin to get there and witness the attack. As soon as he did, and made his choice, the fight was over.

 

 

Sidious won that fight the moment he was elected Supreme Chancellor at the end of Episode I, and everything after that was just the Jedi slowly realizing they'd already lost.

 

You are absolutely right concerning the fight between Windu and Sidious. Windu was being played that whole fight. Sidious killed the first 3 masters with 3 strokes of his lightsaber so he could get them out of the way and play with Windu, waiting for Anakin to show up. That whole fight was set up as Anakin's test as soon as the 4 Jedi Masters set foot in that office. Palpatine was never in any danger of losing.

 

As for the fight with Yoda, It seemed more lopsided (in Palpatine's favor) to me than apparently some others who posted in this thread. At that point, Sidious had his new apprentice, most of the Jedi had been killed, and (essentially) Yoda was the only one left - Sidious didn't know Obi-Wan was still alive at that point. He didn't care about one single Jedi, and he wanted to blow off some steam with Yoda. He'd been hiding in plain sight for so long he wanted to shove that fact in Yoda's face and he did.

 

He was, at that moment, like Zeus playing with his toys (mortals) in the Illiad at the battle of Troy. Nothing anyone did was going to make a difference, he was going to end up getting his way.

I'm not talking about the 'offscreen' deaths. I'm talking about the onscreen ones where powerful Jedi Masters are caught completely offguard and gunned down by 3 or 4 troopers. Aayla Secura, Ki Adi Mundi, etc.

 

Made worse by the fact that Lucas has explicitly stated that there was no 'special programming' in the Clones of any kind, so can't pass it off as some kind of switch going off in their heads that the Jedi couldn't have predicted.

 

**** Lucas. The EU states they are specifically programmed from pre-birth to be 100% loyal to the supreme chancellor above anyone else. .

 

Also, Yoda for sure senses the deception before it happens.

 

In the book it does actually specifically state Obiwan didn't sense it though. So I guess all the Jedi in the movie except Yoda didn't either, since of all of them Obi is second to Yoda in force insight. Throughout the book he takes advantage of his ability to see slightly into the future, the novel actually does a great job of explaining how it works, so for him to not sense the betrayal means likely none of them except Yoda did. So yeah, dark side shroud at full force there.

I'm not talking about the 'offscreen' deaths. I'm talking about the onscreen ones where powerful Jedi Masters are caught completely offguard and gunned down by 3 or 4 troopers. Aayla Secura, Ki Adi Mundi, etc.

 

Made worse by the fact that Lucas has explicitly stated that there was no 'special programming' in the Clones of any kind, so can't pass it off as some kind of switch going off in their heads that the Jedi couldn't have predicted.

 

I'm not sure why special programming would be required in any event. Both the masters you cited were surrounded by more than three or four clones, but by dozens, with armor clearly visible in the background. Had Secura slaughtered the troopers around her, she'd have been easily killed by the artillery just a bit further back. Had Ki Adi Mundi turned on the marines closest to him, there were countless more along the bridge, and countless droids on the other end of it.

 

Further, and I think more relevant, you're underestimating the factor of surprise; if the Jedi is so surprised by the betrayal that they spend a second or two stunned by it, then they've used up their advantage. If instead of slaughtering the clones instantly, the way Yoda does, the masters think, "Wait, they're turning on me?" then they're dead.

 

Really, the bit of that whole movie that really, really bothers me every time is part where after the temple, the clones are for some reason running towards Yoda and Kenobi. Seriously... you've got guns, even if they weren't Jedi, why would you move towards them? If they were droids, or other clones, or anything else, why would you ever run towards them? You wouldn't. So why would you run towards the only guys who can't hit you from far away?

 

All of which is horribly off topic, and so I apologize.

You are absolutely right concerning the fight between Windu and Sidious. Windu was being played that whole fight. Sidious killed the first 3 masters with 3 strokes of his lightsaber so he could get them out of the way and play with Windu, waiting for Anakin to show up. That whole fight was set up as Anakin's test as soon as the 4 Jedi Masters set foot in that office. Palpatine was never in any danger of losing.

 

As for the fight with Yoda, It seemed more lopsided (in Palpatine's favor) to me than apparently some others who posted in this thread. At that point, Sidious had his new apprentice, most of the Jedi had been killed, and (essentially) Yoda was the only one left - Sidious didn't know Obi-Wan was still alive at that point. He didn't care about one single Jedi, and he wanted to blow off some steam with Yoda. He'd been hiding in plain sight for so long he wanted to shove that fact in Yoda's face and he did.

 

He was, at that moment, like Zeus playing with his toys (mortals) in the Illiad at the battle of Troy. Nothing anyone did was going to make a difference, he was going to end up getting his way.

 

What makes u think it was loopsided in Palpatines favor? I remember two things that I think prove opposite.

 

1) On the start of the fight, when Palpatine got pushed back by Yoda, he tried to escape. Why would he do that? I think when Yoda used the Force, he sensed how strong he is and wasn't so confident about beating him anymore.

 

2) When they were throwing seats on each other in senate room, Yoda was able to stop all of them, but Palpatine actually had to jump aside when Yoda throwed one at him himself.

I think palpatine was nerfed a bit, but then again yoda was too since he's a jedi grandmaster. I think yoda could have won, but i havent read the books or learned more on palpatine's story so i admit my knowledge is lacking, but there is one point i have not seen anywhere on blogs: the will of the Force. A friend of mine pointed out that it wasn't yoda's place to defeat the Emperor. It was the Chosen One's place, hence the whole purpose of his existence: to bring balance to the Force. The Jedi/lightside was the first to fall, then palpatine/the darkside was next after decades.

Made worse by the fact that Lucas has explicitly stated that there was no 'special programming' in the Clones of any kind, so can't pass it off as some kind of switch going off in their heads that the Jedi couldn't have predicted.

I thought it was mentioned in the movie that they were "100% loyal", which would imply some sort of programming? Also, to have Palpatine call them up and simply say "Execute Order 66" and nothing else for them to start killing Jedi means they've known of the Order and ready to execute it if need be.

 

As for the Jedi being "caught by surprise" and killed, that's easy enough to explain... complacency. They've been fighting side-by-side with them for roughly 3 years, some of them even becoming good friends with some of the clones. Their attention was focused elsewhere... distracted. Yoda was able to sense the betrayal because he sensed so many other Jedi dying throughout the Galaxy... this caused him to suddenly "open" his awareness of what was going on around him in an attempt to figure out why.

 

2) When they were throwing seats on each other in senate room, Yoda was able to stop all of them, but Palpatine actually had to jump aside when Yoda throwed one at him himself.

Erm, I thought he only stopped one, set it spinning and then back at Palpatine? The rest he dodged. But really, with most of that fight, Palpatine looks like he is hurling the seats with little effort (much like toys), while Yoda has a visible strain on his face just trying to stop the momentum of that one.

 

Also, another point on the retreat, he lost his lightsaber against that last bit of Force Lightning.

 

I will admit that the decision to leave does come off as being in haste/without ample reason to back it up, but to me it is obvious that he is not gaining any headway against Sidious.

This scene and the one with Windu "vs" Sidious are both fine examples of poor directing.... Lucas is just not a good director and why these 2 scenes are debated as to who really wins. To me, it looks like Yoda gave up too easily and left me very disappointed in his character. The scene really should have shown Yoda, more distinctively getting his "A" kicked and maybe even hurt to a degree he cant fight back effectively and has no choice but to escape.

This is a perfect example of why I am so disappointed that Disney wont be using the EU as the basis for their new movies. To me the EU is Star Wars, because lets face it, even the original trilogy movies aren't all that good, even Empire. The books are far more entertaining than the movies ever were, and things like this are rarely up for debate.

 

As for the fights in question, I always assumed that Sidious had let Windu get the upper hand in order to pull Anakin into his corner. He had dangled the tidbit of possibly saving Padme as a reason for Anakin to not want him to die, so he drew Anakin into a confrontation where he would either have to see him die or betray the Jedi.

 

As for Yoda and Sidious, I believe that the darkness clouding everything line refers to things like visions of the longer term future, not to the short term combat precognition. Otherwise, any time a Sith and a Jedi would fight, the Jedi would always be at a disadvantage. It could be argued that Sidious was that much more powerful than Yoda and that was why he could obscure his intent of attack from Yoda, but from just the movie it is hard to make that argument. The book could be used to make this case obviously, which goes back to my original complaint.

 

As for the clones killing the Jedi, that had nothing to do with Sidious blocking out the clones intent. It was a combination of several things, the Jedi trusted the clones completely and Order 66 just sort of flipped a switch that likely didn't even register emotionally to the clones and wouldn't be as easy for a Jedi to pick up on. Beyond that, there were large groups of clones firing on single Jedi (at least as seen in the movie, alot of EU Jedi escaped the carnage often operating in groups). That many beings firing on the Jedi would not only overload any ability to see the future in order to react, but would also limit their options to react. A light saber can't be everywhere at once, and fire from that many directions would not be blockable and posibly not even avoidable (baring a jump straight up but then you are still being tracked by numerous weapons).