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[Suggestion] No-one likes ninja looting


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Funny how people don't realize that online games are just a cover for what's really going on.

 

Social experiments.

 

" How do people react when a necessity gets a drastic and dramatic price change? "

 

" How do people choose which item should go to who, depending of the use for each person for said item ? "

 

There are people studying this and reactions.

 

And my opinion on this? Kick ninja looter at first random Need or tell him so, see how he reacts ( if he gives it to a legit user or not ) and decide on that.

 

Now this is interesting. I have studied sociology myself and consider a ingame community a mirror of a real society. That is why I always refer to this current lootsystem as "anarchy", since everyone can need on whatever they please. It is like a society where there are no authorities to stop you from taking something.

 

This is ofcourse another story that would be best discussed over a beer at a local pub over a evening but in short I agree that what you say is true. You can easily apply the ingame sociological phenomenons to real life, if people has nothing to stop them from taking stuff they actually do it.

Edited by Icestar
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You, like most people, haven't thought this through. There are consequences to changing the loot mechanics, and none of those consequences is the alteration of basic human behavior.

 

Ofcourse I have thought this through. I use the forums like it should be used to create constructive discussions and to hopefully inspire Bioware to either comment regarding this or even change into reality ingame.

 

I have seen a few things change from discussions on this board into reality. The equal PvP discussion is a very good example. We had very heated discussions regarding this last summer and it actually made it through.

 

Regarding this matter though Bioware remains silent through all the threads and posts.

 

But fear not, this subject will be lifted by someone else soon, like history repeats itself :tran_wink:

Edited by Icestar
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How hard is it to type "Anyone mind if I take that/those for (insert comp name here)"?

 

I do it all the time, especially if there is no one in group that needs or can use it. No one ever cares. It's not hard.

 

There's no reason or excuse for ninja-ing anything. It's kind of on the community to police ourselves in this respect

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The best suggestion I heared so far was to give every player a piece of loot, like a quest reward (at least for operations or other bossdrops)

 

Ops bosses should really drop more loot. Or, even better, spawn a chest after each boss kill. That chest would be player-specific and everyone would be rewarded some random items including credits, crafting materials and a piece of gear. Ofcourse, the gear would not be BoP so that it may be traded or sold.

 

No, wait - that would totally ruin the gear grind in which a boss drops a single item eight people roll need on. :rolleyes:

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Ofcourse I have thought this through.

 

Ok, so what you're saying is that you just don't care about the additional problems such a change would create and that you'd be ok with said changes even though they do nothing to actually address the problem?

 

If you're looking for a mechanics change that might actually help address the problem, try this: Make friends lists and black lists tied to accounts instead of individual characters.

Once word gets around that Bob's a jerk and ninjaloots all the time, he starts getting added to black lists and becomes unable to queue for flashpoints because no one will party with him. Bob hops to another character but nothing's changed because he's still on everyone's black list.

Additionally this would provide the benefit of streamlining the process of keeping track of when your friends are on. No longer would you need to keep track of the half dozen characters your friend has, each with a comment denoting who the characters belongs to. Now everything's tied together and simplified for your convenience.

 

The best way to prevent ninjalooting is to not party with people who ninjaloot. The tools to prevent this are currently on a per-character basis, which makes it much harder for the community at large to discourage the behavior. Admittedly it's not terribly effective to start with, but forcing a chronic looter to pick up a whole new account to continue his antics is going to discourage a few folks from engaging in the deplorable behavior.

 

Ultimately there really isn't a fix to be had for this problem, either from altering mechanics or from community brow-beating. Being an opportunistic jerk is human nature and it's always going to be with us. Unless we can figure out how to alter that fundamental reality then this issue will always resurface.

 

So rather than asking "how do we keep people from looting stuff?" we should instead be asking "what can we do to make it so people don't feel particularly inclined to ninjaloot in the first place?".

Edited by cidbahamut
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Ok, so what you're saying is that you just don't care about the additional problems such a change would create and that you'd be ok with said changes even though they do nothing to actually address the problem?

 

I do care, I simply have not found a valid opinion to change my mind yet. To chase after a single mod in a item is simply not good enough to justify a needroll. When it comes to companions I will never, ever consider a needroll. The items that drop in a instance should go to those that spends time there as characters, not a companion that is not even there to help.

 

Regarding more "problems" that might occur with my suggestion I am listening. I simply have not read something yet that changes my mind. Feel free to enlighten me with more information.

 

Also, how are you going to go about determining if someone can "actually benefit from it"?

 

Regarding the term "benefit from" I simply mean a item that has the right armor type and the right stat for the character. A player that takes a item with that type can never be called a ninja, a person a with bad judgement perhaps but never a ninja.

 

If you're looking for a mechanics change that might actually help address the problem, try this: Make friends lists and black lists tied to accounts instead of individual characters.

 

I have some characters that I have ignored on all of my 16 characters but it takes ages to do that so unless they create a legacy ignore I am bound to meet those players again. It is understandable that you do not know me but to make a long story short I have played since day one and followed this game since 2008 so I understand what you mean with "make friends lists" and so on. The only problem with this is that so many friends has stopped playing and guilds tend to break down by one reason or the other. My option if I want to play at my different characterlevels unless I want to wait until my friends are ready is simply to use the groupfinder.

 

 

Once word gets around that Bob's a jerk and ninjaloots all the time, he starts getting added to black lists and becomes unable to queue for flashpoints because no one will party with him. Bob hops to another character but nothing's changed because he's still on everyone's black list.

 

Those kind of blacklists only exists on inofficial forums or guildforums. I never, ever put a person on ignore only because someone screams about it in general chat. Those that I ignore, they deserve it by my own choice.

Those blacklists you speak of, even if they exists they does not serve a purpose unless you actually know the one writing the name on the list. Players tend to make up the wierdest reasons for giving another player a bad reputation.

 

The best way to prevent ninjalooting is to not party with people who ninjaloot. The tools to prevent this are currently on a per-character basis, which makes it much harder for the community at large to discourage the behavior. Admittedly it's not terribly effective to start with, but forcing a chronic looter to pick up a whole new account to continue his antics is going to discourage a few folks from engaging in the deplorable behavior.

 

Then please write how to make groupfinder ninjaproof. There is no way to be sure who you will be partying with and to say "only group with friends", I work alot and most of the time and when I play I want to be able to do that instantly. Groupfinder is my best choice here, since I have characters at the moment from level 12 to 50. You have to be in a very large guild to be able to create groups fast at that levelrange.

 

Ultimately there really isn't a fix to be had for this problem, either from altering mechanics or from community brow-beating. Being an opportunistic jerk is human nature and it's always going to be with us. Unless we can figure out how to alter that fundamental reality then this issue will always resurface.

 

So rather than asking "how do we keep people from looting stuff?" we should instead be asking "what can we do to make it so people don't feel particularly inclined to ninjaloot in the first place?"

 

What you speak of is understanding human nature, it is a much harder nut to crack then simply restricting those that can not use the item to need so the ones that can enjoy the item gets it. Simply enough, it is a much better solution on a big problem. There is no simple solution but other MMOs has done this to great success and I think, after playing this game since launch that it is the best next step to evolve lootrules to common sense.

Edited by Icestar
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Unless the tooltip is lying to me, you don't get queued up with people on your ignore list.

 

All I'm hearing out of you is "I want to implement changes that create more problems but don't actually solve any of the issues I'm complaining about."

Edited by cidbahamut
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Unless the tooltip is lying to me, you don't get queued up with people on your ignore list.

 

All I'm hearing out of you is "I want to implement changes that create more problems but don't actually solve any of the issues I'm complaining about."

 

If you read my post I have already answered regarding this :

I have some characters that I have ignored on all of my 16 characters but it takes ages to do that so unless they create a legacy ignore I am bound to meet those players again.

 

Meaning that sure, I will not team up with that ignored character on the SPECIFIC character that I have ignored with. but my rest of 15 characters will unless I log them on and update them every time.

 

So no it does not solve anything for those with more then 1 character, you have to update every single one.

 

This is a side track though, back to the original topic of ninjalooting, Have you come up with a constructive reason that might convince me to not try to change the lootrules here on the forum?

Edited by Icestar
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Unless the tooltip is lying to me, you don't get queued up with people on your ignore list.

If you read my post I have already answered regarding this :

I have some characters that I have ignored on all of my 16 characters but it takes ages to do that so unless they create a legacy ignore I am bound to meet those players again

 

 

 

Meaning that sure, I will not team up with that ignored character on the SPECIFIC character that I have ignored with. but my rest of 15 characters will unless I log them on and update them every time.

 

So no it does not solve anything for those with more then 1 character, you have to update every single one.

You do realize that I suggested this exact fix, right?

If you're looking for a mechanics change that might actually help address the problem, try this: Make friends lists and black lists tied to accounts instead of individual characters.

 

 

This is a side track though, back to the original topic of ninjalooting, Have you come up with a constructive reason that might convince me to not try to change the lootrules here on the forum?

Because it doesn't solve the issue of ninja-looting but creates more problems instead? How is that not a valid reason?

Are you just being contrary for the sake of being contrary, or do you actually think that's not a valid reason?

Edited by cidbahamut
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You do realize that I suggested this exact fix, right?

 

It has been suggested by me and many others since legacy was introduced. I know you wrote about it in this thread but the suggestion has been known to Bioware for ages

 

 

 

Because it doesn't solve the issue of ninja-looting but creates more problems instead? How is that not a valid reason?

Are you just being contrary for the sake of being contrary, or do you actually think that's not a valid reason?

 

No, it is not a constructive valid reason in my eyes. To simply say that something is a problem is not constructive, to define WHAT is the problem will be constructive.

 

So simply, once again what are the new problems you refer to that will occur with a common sense lootsystem?

 

Not being able to gear up your companions before other players that actually spend time with their characters?

 

Please do tell, a problem is never a problem until it is defined

Edited by Icestar
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So simply, once again what are the new problems you refer to that will occur with a common sense lootsystem?

 

I already laid out a number of problems that will arise. You are simply refusing to acknowledge that they are problems for the sake of convincing yourself that you're right and I'm wrong.

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I already laid out a number of problems that will arise. You are simply refusing to acknowledge that they are problems for the sake of convincing yourself that you're right and I'm wrong.

 

I have not said you are wrong, I simply seek constructive reasons what you base your problem theory on.

 

What is it that makes you say "a number of problems will arise". What are the problems that you speak of?

 

You have mentioned that players can not gear up their companions

 

So you're proposing creating a problem wherein people cannot collect gear for their companions.

 

Is that the "number of problems" you refer to?

Edited by Icestar
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I'm not going to get drawn into a game of semantics.

 

If you've actually given the situation any thought you know darn well what problems it causes and why it doesn't resolve the issues that are already present.

 

So to put it simple, you do not have a constructive reason to back your theory up.

 

It is fine by me. Now it is time for a few beers, have a nice evening mate

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You wouldn't recognize "a constructive reason" if someone spelled it all out for you in detail and with a concise summary.

 

On the contrary, it is you who can not provide a constructive reason about your problems that according to you will occur with the change of the lootsystem to more common sense.

 

If you had written a reason instead of insulting me then it would have been very constructive, but alas this is not.

 

Feel free to write if you actually manage to come up with a justification to call it problems as you write more then a problem, you have only specified one. According to you it is a a problem not beeing able to need items for your companions, this has also been discussed alot on the forums and most of the players think that it is ninjalooting to do that. Feel free to use the search button and check for yourself or need stuff you can not use in a flashpoint, eventually you will find out the hard way what other players think.

 

I checked your registry number and it is above 4 million, meaning you are a new player and it is not reasonable for you to fully understand the situation in ToR. However bear this in mind when you level your second character to 50 or perhaps the third, then you understand the situation for us that have 10+ level 50s and several characters below 50. We have no intention of running flashpoints for simply the reason of gearing up someone elses companion, we are there to gear up our own characters. It is simply not that fun to run a flashpoint again when you already have done it 100+ times.

 

I have discussed a new lootsystem for many months now and will continue to do so, that is why I am interested in letting the community know what the advantages and disadvantages would be.

 

I still believe with the summary of all the threads and posts regarding this matter that ToR will be better off with a change to a lootsystem with harmony then this current anarchy one.

Edited by Icestar
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I already outlined problems that could arise. Your refusal to read what I posted is your shortcoming, not mine.

 

Your seniority doesn't amount to anything. Gearing up the next character is not something unique to this game.

 

What you want to use any given item for doesn't grant you priority to it over another player who happens to want to use it for a different purpose. Everyone participated and contributed, so everyone has equal claim to loot unless an arrangement is made beforehand.

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Ninja looting has become a rather big issues full of excuses. Mainly "for my companion", which is complete out of the question.

 

So here,s a suggestion: The loot that drop, make it non-needable for characters whom the stats wouldn't benefit. As an example, a piece of gear with Cunning on it drops, people who wont benefit from Cunning will only be able to greed on it.

That way, it'll solve the ninja looting issue.

 

+1, and let us still be able to trade it "in group"

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Honestly, ninja looting doesn't seem like a huge problem to me. I've rarely encountered a ninja looter in my time playing. Usually, if someone throws a need on something they shouldn't have and you confront them in group chat, they will trade the item to someone who needs it or re-roll using /roll.

 

This comes up more in the earlier flash points (i.e. Black Talon and Esseles) but that's largely because these people really don't know what's going on. If you explain to them what the deal is, it goes a long way.

 

The real people who ninja loot just get added to my ignore list. Since most of these people are DPS and DPS are a dime a dozen in queues, this hurts them much more than its going to hurt me and if they do it a lot and all the tanks and healers add them to ignore, this thing works itself out. Also, this game has a large social element and you will always be better off if you take advantage of that. Running with people you know really prevents this kind of thing.

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Everyone participated and contributed, so everyone has equal claim to loot unless an arrangement is made beforehand.

 

Now this is the first thing I agree with you on "unless an arrangement is made beforehand"

 

I always write to the team when I start that they should only needroll on items they need for themselves. In most cases it works, but in some sad cases it does not. This is very common when players that has no clue about how to write english plays, or does simply not understand the need/greed mechanics. They usually does not want to ninja and after a bit explaining they trade the item to the player that can equip it with the right stats.

 

This is the only way to ensure at the moment that nobody runs off with a item they cant use, to use the chat and communicate. It would be much better if, like suggested by hundreds of players a restriction for need would be inplace.

 

Anyway I wish you luck on your future ignorelists, because you will be on alot of them if you take items your character can´t use. Only a heads up about that, hope you play a tank or healer :tran_wink:

Edited by Icestar
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How about this for a specific and precise problem?

 

Roll a shadow. Or an assassin. Level it to 50 by tanking through only flashpoints. Use your devised method of loot rolling (you may ONLY roll need on double lightsabers, foci, shields, and light armor, and then ONLY if they have willpower). Let me know how that turns out. Odds are, you won't make it past 30. Why? Because there ARE NO SHIELDS for tank shadows before about 35. So, if a shadow or an assassin wants to tank, they NEED to "ninja" a shield from a guardian or a vanguard. That's just the particular instance that annoys me. There are other minor class breaking loot issues, if you bother to look for them.

 

Oh, and if you actually believe a vanguard can't ninja loot a shield just because it has aim on it, well, then you'll be in for a WONDERFUL surprise, won't you? At least now when someone says "Oh, I just want to sell it." As the reason for hitting need, you have a chance at getting it. With your plan,my next shadow/assassin alt won't get to tank until 50. At least they still have dps, right?

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What? I've successfully tanked with my Shadow from level 10 onwards. Artifice ftw. Those craftable shields are awesome.

 

Hardly. They are decent. Maybe even nice, and certainly better than nothing, which is what shadows get if you don't take artifice. But, compared to a vanguard shield from Esseles with the mod and armoring replaced with purples from your cybertech, artifice just doesn't compare. Heck, even blue at level mod/armoring beats a purple crafted item, from what I've seen.

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Are you seriously going to raise the equipment question in a game where you can blitz through underleveled and undergeared?

 

I've done storymode Esseles once per character and completely ignored every other storymode flashpoint after completing them for the first time. Except Athiss and Colicoid War Game; I've never done those two. In spite of all that, I had no troubles finishing storylines and planet quests. Equipped myself from drops and commendations; mostly green or blue gear. Still felt like a Panzer brigade in Poland.

 

Worry about equipping once you hit 50. Everything prior to that is a walk in the park.

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