If you say so.

 

I sense snark But I keep getting posts deleted everytime I try to prove a point. And that one was a very simple one to point out that it was quite binary and not worth the infractures.

I sense snark But I keep getting posts deleted everytime I try to prove a point. And that one was a very simple one to point out that it was quite binary and not worth the infractures.

 

I realise what your point was, I was simply refuting it because it's ideologically and biologically incorrect (as more people than I have pointed out). Though I agree we'll end up getting infractions if we continue.

 

Having said that I never said (or even implied) that I thought the total scale of sex and gender should be represented in character generation. That would be too complex for a game to take into account. Everything in the game is simplified for ease of play and understanding. The player doesn't need to train in astrophysics to have their character astrogate correctly from one point to another. In fact I said a few posts ago to Infir that I don't expect a separation between gender and model (the easiest and quickest way to represent the sex/gender scale) to ever be available in-game (and there's lots of reasons I think that, most of which I can't safely state here).

 

What I want to see from the game is actually very simple:

• Same Gender Relationship Arcs - equitably done, meaning the same number of love interests for both male and female PCs, attained at similar levels and with the same quality of writing (or better) as OGRAs
  
• Gay, Straight, Lesbian and Bisexual love interests, both companion and non-companion
  
• Transgendered NPCs (I have, it should be noted, zero problem with transgendered companions so take 'NPCs' to mean 'companion or non-companion NPCs')
  
• Equal NPC flirt/'encounter' opportunities, CLEARLY MARKED.
  

 

Secondarily, I'd like to see implemented:

• A way of redoing the romances for existing characters in case the change to include SGRAs means current players 'miss out' due to going past a romance point
  
• At least some of the existing characters being made bisexual
  
• A higher writing quality to the romances overall (I actually don't mind the ones I've seen but I know a lot of people object to them)
  
• Walk-Up Conversation - the ability to walk up to a companion on your ship and open a DAO-style conversation with them (perhaps this only unlocks once the player has reached a certain level of friendship with the companion, or has performed a certain quest for the companion)
  
• Pitch controls to alter the voices of the PCs (to make them deeper or higher as appropriate)
  
• Body sliders to expand the range of shapes available (though as discussed this may not be possible)
  
• Removal of the gender flag on clothing (yes, my huge broad-shouldered black-and-red Zabrak Light Side male Sith Warrior should be able to dress in a slave bikini if it pleases him - who's going to tell him no?)
  

 

There's a lot more stuff but most of it isn't related to SGRAs.

EA promoting inclusion and equality in newly released video

 

http://www.youtube.com/embed/_RgEA07lAZI

 

Opinions?

EA promoting inclusion and equality in newly released video

 

http://www.youtube.com/embed/_RgEA07lAZI

 

Opinions?

 

The lack of clips from SWTOR is telling in many ways. Doesn't look like we'll have any note-worthy interactions on Makeb, then :/

 

It was sweet to see the couples in their old age, though.

 

Too bad this won't change the opinion of many gamers. (Though, I have seen a lot less hate on the forums directed towards us now - the "who would you romance" thread is doing well with only one or two people being idiots in it. Must've been the Makeb announcement that made the "waahh, gays! I'll quit!" people put their subscription where their bigotry was.)

EA promoting inclusion and equality in newly released video

 

http://www.youtube.com/embed/_RgEA07lAZI

 

Opinions?

"The full spectrum" is not entirely accurate when it comes to what is shown in this video... something is amiss.

At first I thought this was a video cut together by fans, not an official EA release. Oh, and Traynor doesn't count ...

The lack of clips from SWTOR is telling in many ways. Doesn't look like we'll have any note-worthy interactions on Makeb, then :/

It was sweet to see the couples in their old age, though.

Too bad this won't change the opinion of many gamers. (Though, I have seen a lot less hate on the forums directed towards us now - the "who would you romance" thread is doing well with only one or two people being idiots in it. Must've been the Makeb announcement that made the "waahh, gays! I'll quit!" people put their subscription where their bigotry was.)

 

I certainly hope so.

 

I must say I'm kind of on the fence when it comes to this video.

 

I appreciate the fact they made it. I really do.

I totally appreciate the fact they included one of my fav SGR couples in it, male Shep and Kaidan, certainly not the least controversial SGR option out there, Shep being one of their most famous characters and them (finally, after some back and forth between BW and gamers) making him SGR-compatible in the last edition of ME not sitting right with some in the playerbase (those not into SGR) claiming this basically ruined their bromance between Kaidan and Shep.

 

Yet Bioware never apologized for doing it afterwards but boasted this inclusion proudly. And I commend them for it.

 

Then again, they could have done more, see below.

 

"The full spectrum" is not entirely accurate when it comes to what is shown in this video... something is amiss.

At first I thought this was a video cut together by fans, not an official EA release. Oh, and Traynor doesn't count ...

 

That's kind of what I thought as well, the first part. Lots is amiss.

They showed scenes from DA2 (Anders and Hawke) but omitted Fenris and Hawke.

They omitted DA-O altogether. Zhevran would not like this.

 

I do think Trainor counts, I do like the fact that she and Cortez were included as same-sex exclusive options, but then again they could have included Cortez.

 

What I'm saying is, they could have shown a lot more. They have a great history of SGR inclusion in their games and they SHOULD boast it, even more than they've done already.

 

This would maybe lead other EA franchises (BW Austin, I'm looking at you) to step up a notch and deliver on SGR inclusion front, following their tradition.

 

At least this video lends more credibility to our cause and whenever some annoying dude (or girl) over in General claims SGR inclusion ruins their game for them, I will gladly shove a link to that video down their throat from now on, hopefully shutting them up about it in the future.

Edited March 8, 2013 by Lent_San

I was near-ecstatic when I recently read a Project Eternity update that detailed how the tools and systems Obsidian are working on will let them quickly refit any armor they create to go with a variety of body types. That's the sort of forward thinking BioWare would have needed during preproduction of SWTOR.

 

I don't think it's something that just accidently happened. It was a deliberate design decision. And I can imagine how they came to that decision. Simply put, you have a better animation quality, less clipping problems, cheaper wearable equipment design, a much, much higher maximum of complexity you can reach with animation at lower cost on the one hand, and diversity on the other hand.

 

EDIT: The actually most important factor however is the client computer requirements. If you want the game to run on a three-year old computer that cost 400 EUR, you don't want them to calculate every single model on the fly before you send the model to the graphics card for display. You don't want the computer to be forced to display all too many different models at the same time. That is especially for MMO designed for large scale mass PvP, such as Warhammer Online. But it reduces the load on client machines in every context.

 

That equipment looks dynamically adjusts to the characters is nothing new in video games. Star Wars Galaxies was like this as well... it's just so that, with the success of WoW, it became apparent that if you want to produce a game for a mass audience, it's better not to bother them with too much customization options. While "image designer" was an own profession in Star Wars Galaxies, and only those image designers had the full range of options, of which no more than 10% were included in character creation, video game magazines in the mid to late 2000s gave games that had more than 6 sliders or so worse ratings, because personal customization was more considered a needless obstacle, than actual worthwhile content on its own. Exceptions to the rule were games like Champions Online, designed for the explicite purpose of providing a maximum of customizablility, but in general, after the insane wave of success of World of Warcraft, for a while visual customizability was considered a bad thing, though hardly anyone would have put it that way.

 

SWG was a very experimental game. They tried many things that no one had ever tried before. SW:TOR is the opposite - it was an extremely expensive game and no one wanted to take much of a risk. All the game concepts are proven to work, except for the fully-voiced and the kind of story telling which reminds of Mass Effect, there is nothing entirely new in this game. It was better to be solid than brilliant. That is a kind of risk control. If you develop a several hundred million dollar game, you must make sure it works. Thus, it is extremely conservative in many regards.

 

Thus, while I personally seriously dislike the decision to work with fixed body types, it's only a consequent decision looking at the game as a whole.

Edited March 8, 2013 by Rabenschwinge

That's kind of what I thought as well, the first part. Lots is amiss.

They showed scenes from DA2 (Anders and Hawke) but omitted Fenris and Hawke.

They omitted DA-O altogether. Zhevran would not like this.

 

What I actually meant was that the full spectrum would include hetero as well.

 

EDIT: On a side note - my favourite gay romance in all Bioware games was Leliana with a female warden and they omitted that as well. That it was a bit awkward at time though... 'Leliana... I am an elf, for the love of god. You're one foot taller than I am and much more curvy. So could I please sit on your lap? I feel somewhat squashed beneath you and I would really like to kiss your neck but... I just can't reach it!'

Edited March 8, 2013 by Rabenschwinge

What I actually meant was that the full spectrum would include hetero as well.

 

Well, that would be celebrating romances in general, me thinks, not necessarily an option when you want to highlight the 'Hate is not a game' motto.

 

The video, btw, is not a promo video but a teaser trailer for an event EA were holding, about SGR inclusion and LGBT themes in games.

 

Sounds quite interesting.

 

http://thenewcivilrightsmovement.com/hate-is-not-a-game-says-top-video-game-maker-electronic-arts-video/news/2013/03/07/62043

Edited March 8, 2013 by Lent_San

The lack of clips from SWTOR is telling in many ways. Doesn't look like we'll have any note-worthy interactions on Makeb, then :/

 

They wouldn't be able to show it even if this 'awesome Makeb stuff' existed.

 

Not that I think it exists or anything

I'm on the fence also about this video.

 

Its cool that they made it and had clips from their games that show that they do indeed care and include LGBT and our community. I've enjoyed BW games in the past, and would like to enjoy them in the future.

 

However; since they have gone to great lengths to use this inclusion as a marketing technique, it upset me quite a bit that SGRs were not in TOR. Feels a little 'bait and switch' to me. Nothing I'm gonna quit the game over, cause there are plenty of other things to enjoy, but the absence feels more absent.

 

Still hoping they show us something special with Makeb, but I'm not holding my breath.

 

^.^

What I actually meant was that the full spectrum would include hetero as well.

 

Agree on this. Not exactly full spectrum, but I get they were basically showcasing SGR and to tell everyone "Look how progressive and accepting we are, play our games"

 

As for the not showing of Star Wars, I don't think anything in that video was linked to a new game, so hold out hope people! Hope isn't bad! Hope is good! I'm not expecting companion style storylines, but possibly one akin to the female Inquisitors romance storyline on Alderaan (I believe that was the planet) with a fellow Sith.

 

So more than a flirt, is what I'm expecting. Now the hope is it's not disappointing. Using my BH as an example as she's actually imo more SGR leaning, if the SGR option was with someone akin to Ashara she'd never take the option. But if it was someone like Mako, she would!

What I actually meant was that the full spectrum would include hetero as well.

 

While that may be true, heterosexual romances are everywhere. No one complains about those. You don't have anyone threatening to quit or screaming about their sensitive children or how how EA/Bioware are sending everyone on some dark moral path into oblivion because a man and a woman can exchange niceties and kiss. You do have that against homosexual relationships, however, and that's why videos like this are important.

 

EA's solidifying their stand of "We're being inclusive and you can either deal with it or go somewhere else."* Once they no longer feel it necessary to "convince" people that this inclusive stance is inherent to the company and something permanent, I imagine they'll be doing videos which show both hetero- and homosexual romances side-by-side.

 

I do think that their video should have had more PoC representation, but it was amazingly sweet to see the old couples.

 

 

Still hoping they show us something special with Makeb, but I'm not holding my breath.

 

^.^

 

Same, especially after Mr. Gonzalez pretty much said that the [Flirt]s would be one off things, which may or may not be reciprocated or even lead to anything. That's be fantastic, Bioware, being forced to wait over a year and half, level to 53 to have the chance to [Flirt] with an NPC of the same gender, only to be shot down because my character is somehow "the only gay in the galaxy". But hey, it's realistic!

 

God I wish they'd just put Makeb on the PTS so we can find out how disappointing it's going to be and all the detractors can get their angry-loling out of the way.

Might it be that there is a footnote missing? There is an asterisk but no matching footnote...

Might it be that there is a footnote missing? There is an asterisk but no matching footnote...

 

Was going to put something in about BW:Austin not adhering to the usual practices of the rest of Bioware or EA, then decided against it, forgot to remove the asterisk...

Well, SWTOR's 'gay planet' gets a honorary mention at the EA event:

 

http://www.polygon.com/2013/3/8/4076456/electronic-arts-lgbt-full-spectrum

 

Wow, actually they're going on about it quite a bit, further down in the article, even the forum moderation gets mentioned.

 

Interesting, albeit a little defensive on BW Austin's part.

 

"All you can do is the best you can."

 

Well....... not seeing any update on this in months, not convinced this is the best you can, sorry. Lots of missed opportunities there.

 

I do feel sympathetic though, in the sense the shoes were big to fill. But well...

 

Edit:

 

W-T-F? This Bromberg guy sounds like a .......

 

"Should developers active looking for ways to add more LGBT themes to games? Bromberg says that developers should rather focus on creating environments that encourage people to tell these stories, especially ones that speak to them."

 

What does that even mean? Does that mean SWTOR creators have not been encouraged enough? Maybe just choose the appropriate people for the job. Problem solved.

Edited March 8, 2013 by Lent_San

"You can explode a ball of fire and casts spells, but you can't be gay," Bromberg said, referencing the backlash from SWTOR

 

Kind of missing why we are/were angry, unless he's talking about the detractors (who frankly don't count - if you're trying to restrict player choice because of your own inability to act mature about something...)

 

But, no, Bioware: Austin have not handled this subject well in any way, shape or form, and you can't blame that on the fact that some people "don't like gays". That's Bioware: Austin making the conscious decision not to include same-sex options in initial development, deciding that it's not important enough to mention unless specifically cornered in a recorded event and then not mentioning it again for months, until again during a recorded event, which was then flat-out denied and hidden.

 

Bioware: Austin at no point has been mature or respectful in their handling of this subject or their interaction with the community on the subject and public-relations-'splaining does not in any help how I feel about this.

 

There doesn't even feel to be any point in discussing this anymore, as Bioware are like "well, we said that they'll get one or two non-responsive [Flirt]s on Makeb, so our work here is done! No need to talk to the community on this anymore! Let's go talk about how we're communicating more!"

Kind of missing why we are/were angry, unless he's talking about the detractors (who frankly don't count - if you're trying to restrict player choice because of your own inability to act mature about something...)

I think he is talking about the detractors, but what's his point?

 

We couldn't do it because whiny anti-SGR peeps told us not to? Is that, like, the reason why nothing happened for so long?

 

Seriously, no offense, but what management stance is this? See post above for more about my beef with Mr Bromberg.

 

And yes, Mr Bromberg, the forum moderation has been atrocious during the past year, most probably for reasons of cutting staff. I guess that wasn't expected either?

Edited March 8, 2013 by Lent_San

I think he is talking about the detractors, but what's his point?

 

I thought that they had intended to fly in the face of the homophobes, but evidently not. It does seem more like EA is posturing being inclusive for the press coverage, but actively shrink when people start threatening EA's money because of their so-called "morals".

"That has to do with foundation of what RPGs are about," he said. "It's about having options to pursue the kinds of things that get you interested and excited, things you can identify with. The broader, deeper more authentic choices you can give people, the better the game is. We provide those choices because we think it makes the game better."

 

Sure, great, it's what I've been saying all the time, except these choices are not in the game yet and won't be comparable to OGR for quite a while to come. But I'm sure Mr Bromberg liked the sound of it.

 

I thought that they had intended to fly in the face of the homophobes, but evidently not. It does seem more like EA is posturing being inclusive for the press coverage, but actively shrink when people start threatening EA's money because of their so-called "morals".

 

Honestly? My feeling is it's not so much EA's fault, but Bioware Austin's. They were new on the MMO market and they didn't want to screw things up too much and SGR inclusion sounded risqué to them. They wanted to play it safe.

 

Turns out they screwed things up double by doing lots of things wrong with the game and needed 1+ years to fix things into where they should have been when this game launched. It's not EA who've screwed up here, it's BW Austin's management. That seems quite clear to me now, after reading this article.

Edited March 8, 2013 by Lent_San

Yeah, as much as people try to fluff it as being a cost-based decision, Bioware: Austin still did make the choice not to include same-sex relationships in the game. I imagine that if it hadn't been for the majority of Bioware's fanbase who moved to this game for the writing, they likely would never have considered including same-sex romances into the game. It does appear that a lot of the time mentioning the subject takes them by surprise.

Yeah, as much as people try to fluff it as being a cost-based decision, Bioware: Austin still did make the choice not to include same-sex relationships in the game. I imagine that if it hadn't been for the majority of Bioware's fanbase who moved to this game for the writing, they likely would never have considered including same-sex romances into the game. It does appear that a lot of the time mentioning the subject takes them by surprise.

 

Indeed. Like "Oh, if we had only known that people cared so much, we'd have implemented things sooner".

 

Whatever happened to reading the forums, focus groups, polls, demography research? Listening to your playerbase? Acknowledging you have a player base that has played Bioware games before and might have certain expectations?

 

I wouldn't be surprised to learn Mr Bromberg was new to Bioware when SWTOR started. Maybe he should have asked for a crash course about what Bioware is supposed to be about, according to their history.

Edited March 8, 2013 by Lent_San

Wow. Reading these posts, it seems they were right. Can't win for losing.

 

I'd say what they're trying to do is be as PC and word everything they say just right as to not offend.

 

I'm more likely to believe the polling for it would be equal on both sides of the line, with the majority being of the *shrug* whatever opinion. Or "Sure! I want F/F relationships!" so it would get slanted in the SGR favorable direction. But that doesn't look at the otherside of a gaming population that could have said "***?! M/M option?! Staying away!"

 

They also very likely played it safe. With trying to make a big time MMO that replaces all other MMOs, that's pretty typical. Look at Avatar (the movie)...all that money spent on new tech, but the basic movie was VERY safe and audience friendly. They didn't spend all that money on creating something to make a plot that was OMG AMAZING but left the general audiences going "Meh. Whatever" They made a plot that was simple and predictable and would appeal to the general movie going audience.

 

And look at that, they add it in and get hate mail from both sides! And we still see hate posts from Pro-SGR side, because of the same thing "Not going to be enough!"

 

Reminds me of posters that say "Add this in, it's more realistic! More like real life!" then when a suggestion comes in they don't want, that is true to real life "NO! Keep that out!"

 

I'd say being in their business is a tricky tight rope to walk. Need to make money, want to appease as many people as possible for money making, while possibly churning out a decent product that hopefully doesn't become a mess of a terrible one as they try to appease everyone.

 

Basically to BW, I say "Keep it up! Don't let the haters on either side get you down! Do what you think is best for you/the company/the game!"

Wow. Reading these posts, it seems they were right. Can't win for losing.

 

Well, I have a better solution for Bioware Austin. Next time you create a game with romances in them, don't make them OGR only.

 

Win, win, doublewhammy win.

 

Thanks a lot.

Never going to win by putting in the bare minium of effort, though.

"Oh, that thing we've been dodging for over a year? Oh yeah... umm, we're gonna pretend we never said companion arcs, but have a one-night stand in the expansion. That's just as good, right?"

 

Avatar's problem was they just threw some crap together as an excuse plot for special effects.

 

 

(Just realised - the newest new regime's had nothing to say in here. Everyone who's shocked, raise your hand)

Edited March 9, 2013 by Palar