topping damage doesnt really mean a lot in the grand scheme of things.

the PT version of pyro is still decent, b/c it offers some baseline group utility (taunts, aoe stun, grapple). the Merc version of pyro is just trash now

topping damage doesnt really mean a lot in the grand scheme of things.

 

the PT version of pyro is still decent, b/c it offers some baseline group utility (taunts, aoe stun, grapple). the Merc version of pyro is just trash now

I don't think the merc version is bad either. It's just a dot class, tech dots, when 90% of WZ healers are tech healers, so I don't care for it much. Still, both are fine at killing and surviving. Most importantly, both have viable alternative specs for DPS in warzones that work very well if you don't like Pyro.

And regarding topping damage - the only nerf they got was *to damage*, so if you're still killing people, surviving and completely objectives, what is there to complain about? (In PVP at least, PVE is a bit different).

problem is not the class being OP or requiring skill or not, nothing in this game requires skill. Problems is we lost one of the primary healer killer specs in SWTOR. Just notice what a healer fest has 2.0 become.

And no, bads were you guys, unable to beat PT before 2.0. On my Sniper, PT Pyro always was a joke, even before the 1.4 nerf.

problem is not the class being OP or requiring skill or not, nothing in this game requires skill. Problems is we lost one of the primary healer killer specs in SWTOR. Just notice what a healer fest has 2.0 become.

 

And no, bads were you guys, unable to beat PT before 2.0. On my Sniper, PT Pyro always was a joke, even before the 1.4 nerf.

I never had problems killing them. I did get annoyed that when I was doing rated the only things I was allowed to bring was my assault vanguard or combat sentinel or scoundrel heals. Hopefully if people ever start doing rated again en masse it'll be a bit more diverse.

problem is not the class being OP or requiring skill or not, nothing in this game requires skill. Problems is we lost one of the primary healer killer specs in SWTOR. Just notice what a healer fest has 2.0 become.

 

And no, bads were you guys, unable to beat PT before 2.0. On my Sniper, PT Pyro always was a joke, even before the 1.4 nerf.

After 1.4, very few classes weren't capable of 1 on 1 ing a pyro PT, provided the player knew what he was doing. Even lowly classes like Lightning sorcs could just wreck them. Off the top of my head, the only in-use specs that couldn't drop a pyro in a 1 on 1 were the three merc specs, the other two PT specs and sorc healers.

So yeah, I agree completely. There were OP classes before 2.0 but pyro PT wasn't one of them. Very considerable strengths and very considerable weaknesses. Only people having problems with them were the ones with low situational awareness. If he got 3 globals off before you noticed him and popped cooldowns to mitigate that initial burst (or, if ranged, got the fridge out of 10 m range), you're the bad, not the Pyro.

I never had problems killing them. I did get annoyed that when I was doing rated the only things I was allowed to bring was my assault vanguard or combat sentinel or scoundrel heals. Hopefully if people ever start doing rated again en masse it'll be a bit more diverse.

I don't think it will be. not for long, at any rate. fotm will always push out the rest of the pack. well, that's my prognostication.

 

So yeah, I agree completely. There were OP classes before 2.0 but pyro PT wasn't one of them. Very considerable strengths and very considerable weaknesses.

The potency of stacking them and the nature of the burst/kite that Pyro had was ridiculous. If you didn't think it was ever going to get toned down you really don't know much about class balance. The few rated matches I did it was not uncommon to see 4-5 Pyro PTs on each side. That's a pretty good sign that something needs a nerf.

The potency of stacking them and the nature of the burst/kite that Pyro had was ridiculous. If you didn't think it was ever going to get toned down you really don't know much about class balance. The few rated matches I did it was not uncommon to see 4-5 Pyro PTs on each side. That's a pretty good sign that something needs a nerf.

stacking is always a present issue in games like these. Right now we have healer stacking, op healer stacking, rage/focus stacking. Hell, even sniper stacking some times. I don't see how PT Pyro stacking is different from these.

I don't think it will be. not for long, at any rate. fotm will always push out the rest of the pack. well, that's my prognostication.

^ You are right, give it time.

Something else with arise and a new wave of cry babies will call for nerfs.

It's a ugly cycle to watch unfold.

In the current heal-strong environment, of course Snipers are going to be the DPS of choice because if you don't plan on having anyone dying, you can fight very defensively and Snipers have to be the best defensive DPS in the game by design. If not, there's really no point for a class that basically can't move to exist if they aren't the #1 DPS while holding a static location. Currently you don't know even know if you'll ever be able to kill any healer so you certainly can't bother with the Sniper next to them. Likewise classes that are designed to be good at assaulting positions, like PTs, aren't very useful right now as basically nobody can actually assault a well defended position period.

But I think this is a problem due to heals being too strong and not a problem with the DPS classes themselves. Weaken the healers and you'd make turret classes (Snipers) weaker as you can no longer just play defensively, while classes that are excellent at attacking a position would be more desireable.

In the current heal-strong environment, of course Snipers are going to be the DPS of choice because if you don't plan on having anyone dying, you can fight very defensively and Snipers have to be the best defensive DPS in the game by design. If not, there's really no point for a class that basically can't move to exist if they aren't the #1 DPS while holding a static location. Currently you don't know even know if you'll ever be able to kill any healer so you certainly can't bother with the Sniper next to them. Likewise classes that are designed to be good at assaulting positions, like PTs, aren't very useful right now as basically nobody can actually assault a well defended position period.

 

But I think this is a problem due to heals being too strong and not a problem with the DPS classes themselves. Weaken the healers and you'd make turret classes (Snipers) weaker as you can no longer just play defensively, while classes that are excellent at attacking a position would be more desireable.

Also worth noting that snipers with their alpha and healing debuff are kinda ideal right now. I do think they need to nerf healing a bit more or at least nerf 'spider healing'. But anyway, assault VG/Pyro PT was 500-600k every match, guaranteed, with little to no work. It was way too strong as a mobile RDPS to a point where it was silly to try DPS'ing as anything else.

In the current heal-strong environment, of course Snipers are going to be the DPS of choice because if you don't plan on having anyone dying, you can fight very defensively and Snipers have to be the best defensive DPS in the game by design. If not, there's really no point for a class that basically can't move to exist if they aren't the #1 DPS while holding a static location. Currently you don't know even know if you'll ever be able to kill any healer so you certainly can't bother with the Sniper next to them. Likewise classes that are designed to be good at assaulting positions, like PTs, aren't very useful right now as basically nobody can actually assault a well defended position period.

 

But I think this is a problem due to heals being too strong and not a problem with the DPS classes themselves. Weaken the healers and you'd make turret classes (Snipers) weaker as you can no longer just play defensively, while classes that are excellent at attacking a position would be more desireable.

Snipers can move very well. They are more mobile than some other "mobile" classes.

Burst is king in PvP and that's what got taken from the VG/PT. Sticky grenade hits as hard as the top tier talent for pyro/assault now. The DOT on the back end of AP is like tickling it's so weak. So, let me just go ahead and say that again....a level 5 ability that every trooper gets hits as hard as the top tier talent in a skill tree. The top tier talents should be desirable, this one is just a turd that isn't even worth looking at. I don't know what they were thinking.

Sure, you could still put up some nice fluff numbers in a WZ, but a 6K railshot crit feels pretty weak compared to a 9.5K smash hitting with a 100% crit chance that also happens to be an AOE. Right now VG's are rolling with 3 fresh damage nerfs (4 if you consider the fact that the ion pulse crit in the assault tree is broken), with only a 10m shoulder rocket launcher added to balance it out. VG/PT have pretty lousy defensive cool downs so anyone having huge problems with them just didn't understand how the class worked. Right now VG/PT simply aren't viable for high end PvP.

Overall, however, I think that BW did a good job of bringing some forgotten classes back in to the game. Right now, with the exception of both the trooper/BH AC's, I think that there is at least one tree for every AC that could fit in to a ranked WZ. The bottom line is that you pretty much have to have at least 2 (or more) classes if you want to PvP because eventually you're going to get smacked by the nerf bat or watch the other classes get buffed to the stratosphere.

Seriously PT/VG is a joke of a class in PVP and PVE. We might as all roll lethality snipers and smash mara's.

They are forcing us to play the Warrior class if we want to be top DPS in Warzones. They've continuously buffed this class. Even with the nerf to smash, they ended up with an overall buff in total dmg. All rage abilities had a 15% buff in dmg. Why didn't we get the same thing. Oh... We're tech users, Bioware doesn't care about us.

They are forcing us to play the Warrior class if we want to be top DPS in Warzones. They've continuously buffed this class. Even with the nerf to smash, they ended up with an overall buff in total dmg. All rage abilities had a 15% buff in dmg. Why didn't we get the same thing. Oh... We're tech users, Bioware doesn't care about us.

Rage got a 15% crit multiplier for all damage instead of a 30% crit multiplier buff to force damage. That is not a 15% overall damage buff. BTW, sniper got massively buffed by 2.0. All 3 specs of sentinel were nerfed by 2.0. Watchman is unplayable currently.

Burst is king in PvP and that's what got taken from the VG/PT. Sticky grenade hits as hard as the top tier talent for pyro/assault now. The DOT on the back end of AP is like tickling it's so weak. So, let me just go ahead and say that again....a level 5 ability that every trooper gets hits as hard as the top tier talent in a skill tree. The top tier talents should be desirable, this one is just a turd that isn't even worth looking at. I don't know what they were thinking.

 

Sure, you could still put up some nice fluff numbers in a WZ, but a 6K railshot crit feels pretty weak compared to a 9.5K smash hitting with a 100% crit chance that also happens to be an AOE. Right now VG's are rolling with 3 fresh damage nerfs (4 if you consider the fact that the ion pulse crit in the assault tree is broken), with only a 10m shoulder rocket launcher added to balance it out. VG/PT have pretty lousy defensive cool downs so anyone having huge problems with them just didn't understand how the class worked. Right now VG/PT simply aren't viable for high end PvP.

 

Overall, however, I think that BW did a good job of bringing some forgotten classes back in to the game. Right now, with the exception of both the trooper/BH AC's, I think that there is at least one tree for every AC that could fit in to a ranked WZ. The bottom line is that you pretty much have to have at least 2 (or more) classes if you want to PvP because eventually you're going to get smacked by the nerf bat or watch the other classes get buffed to the stratosphere.

+1

The burst was the only really good quality of the class before.

Lots of AC got their burst increased while Pyro lvl55 struggle to keep the same burst level as pre 2.0 lv50.

having their best attack barely hit over 6k isnt very competitive for an AC that have very few defensive CD.

It just doesnt make sense to play this class. It has:

-No burst

-Melee / short ranged

-Weak defensive CDs

-Decent overall dps

-average group utility (taunts/ grap)

Nothing very impressive compared to the rest of the AC that can shine in at least a specific area.

Rage got a 15% crit multiplier for all damage instead of a 30% crit multiplier buff to force damage. That is not a 15% overall damage buff. BTW, sniper got massively buffed by 2.0. All 3 specs of sentinel were nerfed by 2.0. Watchman is unplayable currently.

yeah. but didn't you say combat was worthless because precision was easily neutralized? precision is virtually *always* up. there's absolutely nothing wrong with combat atm, now that bubble-stun isn't a guaranteed break in the burn phase.

I don't understand the hate for watchman, but I know that's your spec of choice. nevertheless, how many ACs can boast two top line spec trees?

smash is quite good. better burst than the guardian equivalent. I still say any dual wielder should be playing combat, but there's absolutely nothing to complain about with focus.

I just don't see your point. VG dmg got nerfed to the point that its dmg didn't even scale with its level.

I'm having no trouble at all on my Vanguard. I played him a lot this weekend. Granted, he's only level 52, but the deeps were definitely there. Love Shoulder Cannon. The new Assault Plastique blows. A hybrid is definitely the way to roll.

Survivability is a quagmire thanks to Bolster though. However, this is mainly because my toon's gear is so poor. He still had some Recruit pieces and almost nothing is augmented.

Maybe things change for the worst at 55? *shrugs*

Maybe things change for the worst at 55? *shrugs*

They do, PT/VG's abilities scale badly at lvl55.

The potency of stacking them and the nature of the burst/kite that Pyro had was ridiculous. If you didn't think it was ever going to get toned down you really don't know much about class balance. The few rated matches I did it was not uncommon to see 4-5 Pyro PTs on each side. That's a pretty good sign that something needs a nerf.

So the problem is that pyros synergize with each other too well?

Sorry, not buying what you're selling. The synergy between two or more pyros pre-2.0 was not better in comparison to two or more rage warriors chaining or any combination of carnage maras and concealment ops focusing the same target. Rage warriors arguably got stronger (at worst, they moved laterally) and concealment ops definitely got stronger. And I haven't even gotten to the neat tricks you can pull off stacking snipers.

And the last and most important thing to mention is that every class I just mentioned that synergizes as well or better than pyros is considerably more difficult to drop, then and now.

Also worth noting that snipers with their alpha and healing debuff are kinda ideal right now. I do think they need to nerf healing a bit more or at least nerf 'spider healing'. But anyway, assault VG/Pyro PT was 500-600k every match, guaranteed, with little to no work. It was way too strong as a mobile RDPS to a point where it was silly to try DPS'ing as anything else.

Healing debuffs have no place in a game where healing is actually meaningful because it just becomes like WoW's Mortal Strike where it's not possible to have meaningful PvP without it, and then they eventually ended up giving Mortal Strike's effect to half of the classes and at that point you might as well not have the effect anymore and just make it permanent.

If a class loses every ability it currently has but gained a new '100% healing debuff' ability, there's almost no way any team of 8 without one of this class even has a chance against any other group of 8 that features 1 of this class. Even a team of 8 DPS still has a lot of passive healing from medpacks and CDs. I really can't imagine why healing debuff is needed for PvE in the first place. It's not like there's this boss that randomly heals himself for half a million HP that cannot be interrupted so you absolutely need to debuff it 20% so that you can beat the enrage timer. At least, I hope such a ridiculous encounter does not exist somewhere. There shouldn't be a healing debuff ability, period, because it's pretty much impossible to balance a game around it.