With the announcement of Makeb, I joined the game and I'm having a bit of fun. Covert chest armor is nice. (Waiting for covert pants though.) Anyhow, I kind of accepted that the companions were "just friends" until I got Nadia Grell.

****, she's just... throwing herself at me and because I don't trust the conversation wheel, I try to never flirt but be polite, but she just-won't-stop. I don't want to be a dick because for all I know, she'll turn to the dark side and I'll have to space her, but still. I wish SGR's had been in at launch. I'd rather a clingy Zenith. I hope the Makeb options aren't quite that easy.

(Or this may be the price I pay for using cartel coins to juice positive companion reaction via the Legacy perks.)

I kind of skipped around the conversation as it seemed to be a partial insight into romance in games in general, from two polar opposites of the spectrum (one for, on against) which, while nice, didn't seem to serve for anything better than "if you like it, it's good, if you don't, it's a distraction".

 

I did notice at the end the comment of "get the girl", which does rather raise the question of: in SWTOR, do you feel that your romance partners are there as "rewards" for your progress (i.e. well done, you've defeated the BBEG! Here's a kissy face for you) or that is more of a natural process between the two people involved?

 

I have to say, I think Bioware has largely avoided that "reward" scenario in their romances, but then I obviously haven't played through them all (nor looked them up on youtube). It would be nice if that trend continued.

I think some comments where made that actually point to what the developers where thinking.

The romances are for the most part, terrible. For TOR for example all it really takes is knowing to pick the right option, which is usually labeled quite clearing (Flirt).

And really, the romances in TOR add absolutely nothing to the game from any perspective except a few...

1) It appeals to shippers. But to be fair, shippers can be shippers without the romance option in game, and really most shippers never care about character personality/background.

2) It appeals to the more solo RPers. I say solo RPers, due to world (adding in all the other RPers on the server) RP wouldn't have you saying you're hooked up with Mako or Torian, but rather they'd just be a part of the game and not part of ones RP. Why? Same reason when you RP with everyone on the server or even just your guild, there's multiple Makos, multiple Torians, and not everyone can be the one who defeated the Emporer or defeated the Voice of the Emporer.

3) It does add that dating sim effect and hides it behind the rest of the game!

I don't think it's a reward in that way (you get a pair of boots which makes you smarter, a hat which makes your blaster fire more efficient and three kisses from the Twi'lek doll), but of course a fulfilling romance should be rewarding in itself. What has been point of the argument is that it feels undeserved however. The way that everyone wants you is sometimes even frightening.

Dragon Age II. Isabella shows up and wants sex, nothing more. And she's so cute about it that my character almost falls in love with her for being so shallow and easy and honest about it. Flirt options with Anders and a number of other characters. Merril shows up and wants the eternal love (I suppose she picked that up in a novel), I send her away and try to not hurt her feelings more than necessary. Note to self: Try to find her a nice, yet shy and somewhat insecure elven guy and lock them up in a room until they figure it out. And get rid of that bloody mirror in the mean time. An actual romance with Anders, a few strange dialogues. There were times I wanted to hide behind Bethany's skirts - the one truly lovely girl you cannot have and still may unconditionally love.

I was kinda through with romances in SW:TOR when I first saw the "romance" between Moracen and Spanios. When I was sent on the mission I was kinda: "Like hell I will betray a teenage romance!" Then I heard them talking. And all faith in sweet romance within this game crumbled to dust.

If it was just so that it feels right. Not just another achievement, that shows in your Steam profile. I am almost proud to say I had no romance in Mass Effect 2, if it wasn't for that bitter eve-of-battle scene. Two flirt options, one dialogue and bang, bedtime.

even tho we arent gettin exacltly wat we asked more i think makeb will be really fun for SGRs, like im hoping they do give more in depth flirts (for example we make a relationship with an npc and can come back later for a booty call like the trooper) cuz i think it can really drive a story forwrd and easily spawn extra side quests. social side quests i think would be great, like mass efect when ur only task is to talk to an individual just for some extra story but not necesarily relevant for progression. they could do alot with expanding romances in general and im sure they kno that.

also on a completely unrelated side note as i was trollin tatooine as a lvl 50 at some point Gen chat began really...gay(i probly started it idr) but most ppl on the planet were really fun with it and theyre were actaully numerous gay/bi ppl participating, i honestly was surprised theyre were so many of us playin this game (i made many new friends that day) and it generated alota hype about makeb too once that came into the conversation. point bein.... despite the now and then hate about inplementing SGRs i think most ppl wouldnt mind or even support it. Star Wars is such a diverse and culturaly accepting franchise to me it seems something like implenting SGRs would be a given. btw im nominating Tatooine as Star Wars "gayest" planet lol

Sooo...I got to thinking! Another suggestion, but with a different sort of spin.

A new body type...a more androgynous body type. One that couldn't be made out to really be one gender or the other. Then a click option in the character creator to pick gender...for voice acting only, but allows you to flirt with the same gender.

So, if you click on male, it'll treat you like a female for purposes of flirt options, but use the "he" voice responses.

Does that make sense? Not even sure if it's possible. But a suggestion on how to do it none-the-less.

Sooo...I got to thinking! Another suggestion, but with a different sort of spin.

 

A new body type...a more androgynous body type. One that couldn't be made out to really be one gender or the other. Then a click option in the character creator to pick gender...for voice acting only, but allows you to flirt with the same gender.

 

So, if you click on male, it'll treat you like a female for purposes of flirt options, but use the "he" voice responses.

 

Does that make sense? Not even sure if it's possible. But a suggestion on how to do it none-the-less.

Easy enough to just add a fifth body type to both male and female options, no need to have it as a separate process from the other body types. It makes sense, yes, but are you proposing this as a way of getting SGRAs into the game instead of changing flags and adding dialogue? Or as well as? Because while your idea would appeal to anyone wanting to play an actively androgynous character (I'd be up for that) you're going to get a lot of people dissatisfied with it if it's the only option; people who want to pay a feminine lesbian or a masculine gay, for example.

I like the idea of an androgynous body type (though I still think they should dispense with body types altogether and have body element sliders) but I think it should be a separate issue to SGRAs. I'd want both, right across the board.

Easy enough to just add a fifth body type to both male and female options, no need to have it as a separate process from the other body types. It makes sense, yes, but are you proposing this as a way of getting SGRAs into the game instead of changing flags and adding dialogue? Or as well as? Because while your idea would appeal to anyone wanting to play an actively androgynous character (I'd be up for that) you're going to get a lot of people dissatisfied with it if it's the only option; people who want to pay a feminine lesbian or a masculine gay, for example.

 

I like the idea of an androgynous body type (though I still think they should dispense with body types altogether and have body element sliders) but I think it should be a separate issue to SGRAs. I'd want both, right across the board.

Well, I will admit, I'd like a more androgynous option. And sadly, I don't expect we'll ever see body sliders. I'm not saying they can't introduce them, but I have a feeling that's more of a game day release feature and not a year plus down the road feature.

Bit tired when I thought the idea up, and some how it all made sense in my head to work, but now, whooosh...which means it was a bad idea from a SGR standpoint.

Well, there's an overall problem with additional body types (or body sliders) in that the game, as it is designed, cannot support either of those without a lot of additional work put into every cutscene in the game and (perhaps) the entire character animation system and equipment system.

It's related to the issues that might prevent us from getting playable Togruta, and is already causing some trouble with Twi'lek.

Well, there's an overall problem with additional body types (or body sliders) in that the game, as it is designed, cannot support either of those without a lot of additional work put into every cutscene in the game and (perhaps) the entire character animation system and equipment system.

 

I think you can strike the (perhaps). A new body type would imply a new variant of every single piece of appearable equipment and every single animation player characters can perform in the game - not only those in cut scenes.

Without having actual insight into the code it's a fairly safe guess that SW:TOR has a predefined set of eight body types (four male, four female), it doesn't adapt to different variants dynamically as a game with more freedom would. Thus it's comparably easy to ensure quality but difficult to scale the system.

Well, there's an overall problem with additional body types (or body sliders) in that the game, as it is designed, cannot support either of those without a lot of additional work put into every cutscene in the game and (perhaps) the entire character animation system and equipment system.

 

It's related to the issues that might prevent us from getting playable Togruta, and is already causing some trouble with Twi'lek.

...Seriously? Body types aside did they really make a game spanning an entire galaxy that doesn't have the flexibility to manage dozens of species? Um... Awkward.

Guess I can kiss my dreams of playing an Ithorian goodbye, then...

...Seriously? Body types aside did they really make a game spanning an entire galaxy that doesn't have the flexibility to manage dozens of species? Um... Awkward.

 

Guess I can kiss my dreams of playing an Ithorian goodbye, then...

I think it's more sad that a game this new doesn't have more customization period

But, you never know, they may beable to add such races at a later time, but I think that's going to depend a bit on how much they're willing to take from profits to make this happen and maybe gain more profits.

...Seriously? Body types aside did they really make a game spanning an entire galaxy that doesn't have the flexibility to manage dozens of species? Um... Awkward.

 

Guess I can kiss my dreams of playing an Ithorian goodbye, then...

Every time WoW adds a new playable race, they need to redesign all the gear in the game to be able to fit on the new model. So it can be done....it just requires time, money, and effort out of them. The added complexity of SWTOR is that they also would need to redesign all their cinematic animation sequences for every class to accommodate a new body type. It still can be done, but they also said they wouldn't be adding any species that can't speak basic. Ithorians can speak basic apparently, but they're probably a little too alien for them to consider any time soon.

Every time WoW adds a new playable race, they need to redesign all the gear in the game to be able to fit on the new model. So it can be done....it just requires time, money, and effort out of them. The added complexity of SWTOR is that they also would need to redesign all their cinematic animation sequences for every class to accommodate a new body type. It still can be done, but they also said they wouldn't be adding any species that can't speak basic. Ithorians can speak basic apparently, but they're probably a little too alien for them to consider any time soon.

Oh, I get that the equipment needs a redesign. I can appreciate that a species which isn't essentially a human with a reskin is a pain in the butt for them to implement, I meant more the matter of things such as cutscenes and whatnot. I can appreciate that adding species isn't cheap, quick or easy but my concern is that if they've modelled the game on a core programming suite that will realistically only allow them to offer playable species that are pretty much human from the neck down then it's a tad... short-sighted of them.

I dunno. Maybe I'm being overly critical on that matter. I've seen games take slider functions into account - the code recognises body points and points model parts at those points - so a couple's faces will always point at each other no matter what their comparative heights might be. Kisses never miss (and nor do punches) and a knee to the groin will always hit the groin. That way there's no need to remake a cutscene for different heights, species or genders, because they all have the same body points somewhere within the model's skeleton. To be honest that's how I assumed it's done now.

It would be nice if gender were not so binary, in general. For instance, the choices of body type, voice, and pronouns (including a gender-neutral "they") could be completely separate options, not tied together in a predefined gender package. Something like that plus a decent selection of hero-sexual LIs, and I'd be over the moon.

I think that might be pushing the envelope a bit too much for many people. I agree but I don't think separating body shapes from gender will ever happen in this game.

It would be nice if gender were not so binary, in general. For instance, the choices of body type, voice, and pronouns (including a gender-neutral "they") could be completely separate options, not tied together in a predefined gender package. Something like that plus a decent selection of hero-sexual LIs, and I'd be over the moon.

*shrug* Gender is pretty binary though. One is either a male or female. Unless they go with a race without genders, which, they could do with a new race.

*shrug* Gender is pretty binary though. One is either a male or female. Unless they go with a race without genders, which, they could do with a new race.

Incorrect. Gender is a spectrum between two poles, both physically and in terms of identity (though the latter far more than the former). That's fact with humans, let alone another species.

Incorrect. Gender is a spectrum between two poles, both physically and in terms of identity (though the latter far more than the former). That's fact with humans, let alone another species.

When all you have to do is a DNA test to determine gender, it's pretty binary. What one identifies with mentally, doesn't make that change.

But I'm totally for a more androgous race to be added!

When all you have to do is a DNA test to determine gender, it's pretty binary. What one identifies with mentally, doesn't make that change.

Again, incorrect. There's such a thing as intersex, in which a person exhibits traits of both physical sexes right down to DNA, and that's very varied and non-binary. It's very rare, though how rare is as yet quite unclear, but instances of intersex people have been known (or at the very least suspected) right from prehistoric times.

But I'm totally for a more androgous race to be added!

No need for an androgynous species, they could add the body shape for any of the existing player species. Though I want to see more species in general.

Again, incorrect. There's such a thing as intersex, in which a person exhibits traits of both physical sexes right down to DNA, and that's very varied and non-binary. It's very rare, though how rare is as yet quite unclear, but instances of intersex people have been known (or at the very least suspected) right from prehistoric times.

 

 

 

No need for an androgynous species, they could add the body shape for any of the existing player species. Though I want to see more species in general.

1) It's rare enough that you're likely to never meet one, it's so rare it's they can't even say 1% of the population. It's that rare.

2) Kiome...I dont think this is the thread to really continue this discussion Which, I thought my last post made clear in saying "Yeah! Lets add this!"

I say androgonous, because I'd like a body type that gave off a more feminine figure while still having people go "Male or female?"

There's actually one female body type (3 I think) that in the right heavy armor, I thought was male (bald head might have also helped with that tho).

Oh, I get that the equipment needs a redesign. I can appreciate that a species which isn't essentially a human with a reskin is a pain in the butt for them to implement, I meant more the matter of things such as cutscenes and whatnot. I can appreciate that adding species isn't cheap, quick or easy but my concern is that if they've modelled the game on a core programming suite that will realistically only allow them to offer playable species that are pretty much human from the neck down then it's a tad... short-sighted of them.

Very much agreed.

I was near-ecstatic when I recently read a Project Eternity update that detailed how the tools and systems Obsidian are working on will let them quickly refit any armor they create to go with a variety of body types. That's the sort of forward thinking BioWare would have needed during preproduction of SWTOR.

When all you have to do is a DNA test to determine gender, it's pretty binary. What one identifies with mentally, doesn't make that change.

Sex, or physical gender, is actually not determined by DNA (specifically the XX and XY chromosome pairs) as it was previously believed. That became a pretty big deal when women, who had been girls/women their whole lives, were disqualified from the olympics for having XY chromosomes.

Sex is actually determined by hormones, and the development of one's sex is a gradual process that goes on from the womb until the end of puberty. The hormone production is generally controlled by the previously mentioned chromosomes, but exceptions are common enough that we can't hold it as a rule. And that's not even going into mental gender.

But we'll probably have to wait for an ambitious singleplayer game for developers to even try to take non-binary sex or separate gender into account. Or Skyrim mods. It won't happen in a nearly failed MMO where they're barely able to produce any new content that isn't locked behind real money pay walls, though.

1) It's rare enough that you're likely to never meet one, it's so rare it's they can't even say 1% of the population. It's that rare.

Absolutely not the point. Gender is not binary; sex is not binary. That's the fact of the matter.

2) Kiome...I dont think this is the thread to really continue this discussion Which, I thought my last post made clear in saying "Yeah! Lets add this!"

 

I say androgonous, because I'd like a body type that gave off a more feminine figure while still having people go "Male or female?"

I'm not entirely clear on what you're objecting about with this point as I agree with you on the matter of androgynous body shapes, I just don't think we need to wait for another species to implement it. But you seem entirely determined to disagree so I suppose you're welcome to.

Absolutely not the point. Gender is not binary; sex is not binary. That's the fact of the matter.

 

 

 

I'm not entirely clear on what you're objecting about with this point as I agree with you on the matter of androgynous body shapes, I just don't think we need to wait for another species to implement it. But you seem entirely determined to disagree so I suppose you're welcome to.

I didn't disagree. I was trying to change/drop the off subject topic we started to go in, only to have you and another keep it going.

I didn't disagree. I was trying to change/drop the off subject topic we started to go in, only to have you and another keep it going.

If you say so.