And this is *my* definition of herosexual - none of the NPCs in this game (bar a very select few) do not discriminate or turn down the PC. Until such time as world NPCs, Romance NPCs and Companions start to show a bit of personality and stop getting with everyone that hits the [Flirt] option, then gender blind herosexual NPCs are pretty much the only option.

Right... and I'm trying to push for that to be changed. One small step at a time?

But the reason why I'm pushing for that to be changed is because of the (personal) belief that it breaks immersion and that they really shouldn't have gone the SP story in an MMO setting route.

Oh, and to this, I believe in that same thread later, it's confirmed that this particular scenario was only in relation to your faction mission giver (which takes the place of your class mission giver). It was later posted that there are world missions that bring you to NPCs of the opposite (and possibly both) gender(s) that are also BGR.

That was one screenshot from Dulfy that has not been confirmed by Bioware - Mr. Musco has only confirmed that the SGR [Flirt] and romance options are separated by faction in the manner I just detailed. He has said nothing more on the subject and, at present, I believe the rest is conjecture and hearsay, given that screenshots and videos have not been provided.

And nor will Mr. Musco confirm anything more than he has already done - Bioware takes a very hands off, stay away approach to this thread and subject.

Right... and I'm trying to push for that to be changed. One small step at a time?

Sure, but not everyone's going to agree with you that it needs to be changed. I find it highly unlikely that Bioware are going to stop making herosexual NPCs or companions, so the only avenue left to make the game fair is to make them gender blind.

Sure, but not everyone's going to agree with you that it needs to be changed. I find it highly unlikely that Bioware are going to stop making herosexual NPCs or companions, so the only avenue left to make the game fair is to make them gender blind.

Yeah, I know. But as I said earlier... I know I'm fighting a lost cause, but it doesn't mean I'm going to give up. *shrug*

Yeah, I know. But as I said earlier... I know I'm fighting a lost cause, but it doesn't mean I'm going to give up. *shrug*

Your route will make the NPCs more interesting, that's for sure, I just don't think Bioware's willing or capable of doing it at the moment.

Your route will make the NPCs more interesting, that's for sure,

Well, that's what I thought, too. But I'm also being told by some that I'm "stifling creativity".

If anything, I'd think it'd open up some creativity, as you'd have to play through multiple times as various species, classes, and genders to see all of the content? Granted, in its current form, that's not much content, but it'd (hopefully) open the way for more.

I think the issue you might be running into, Fury, is that you are attempting to limit available NPC flirts before a lot of us have gotten what we would like to see.

Yes, NPC's that aren't herosexual and turn you down on occasion would be more interesting, however, with the severe lack of SGR options available currently (( none at the moment )) I, for one would like a chance to flirt with anyone I like first before BW goes and starts limiting who is receptive and who is not.

Personally, I would rather see herosexuallity added, since its the easiest way to insure equality. and that's all I have ever wanted in any game I play. It may very well limit how interesting the characters are, but until there are enough options for everyone to enjoy the game the way they want to, I think its the best option.

^.^

I think the issue you might be running into, Fury, is that you are attempting to limit available NPC flirts before a lot of us have gotten what we would like to see.

 

Yes, NPC's that aren't herosexual and turn you down on occasion would be more interesting, however, with the severe lack of SGR options available currently (( none at the moment )) I, for one would like a chance to flirt with anyone I like first before BW goes and starts limiting who is receptive and who is not.

 

Personally, I would rather see herosexuallity added, since its the easiest way to insure equality. and that's all I have ever wanted in any game I play. It may very well limit how interesting the characters are, but until there are enough options for everyone to enjoy the game the way they want to, I think its the best option.

 

^.^

I can certainly understand and appreciate that point of view. My thought, though, is that there would be a larger poo storm over them later cutting it back/limiting it, rather than doing it from the outset. (Both from players crying "foul" & "you're taking stuff away" as well as BW/EA saying "we don't want to invest more money into changing it again.")

Mind you, that is feeling that I get.

Your route will make the NPCs more interesting, that's for sure, I just don't think Bioware's willing or capable of doing it at the moment.

I think this is where the disagreement stems from, ultimately. I, for one, don't see how restrictions on what type of PC can flirt/romance an NPC would necessarily make said NPC more interesting as a character.

I think this is where the disagreement stems from, ultimately. I, for one, don't see how restrictions on what type of PC can flirt/romance an NPC would necessarily make said NPC more interesting as a character.

More interesting in the "not going to automagically fall at feet" sense, not "intrinsically a more interesting person because they're not bi and/or herosexual". I mean, it's expected of those in the Empire that they be human supremacists and purists, so anyone who falls outside of the expectation would be interesting for a moral and ethical perspective, but every Imperial [Flirt] NPC falls outside that expectation (unless of course you want to argue that there is a power play because of the nature of the PC, which is reasonable) in that they are herosexual, so the NPC has less of a personality based in the culture because it has been removed for the purposes of making the smexy-times easier.

And that's all it is - a shortcut. If this were truly a single player game where we had more time with our NPCs and companions so that we could get to know them and species were recognised more in conversation rather than the odd quip now and then, the herosexual nature of NPCs with regards to the expectations of their culture and society would be more annoying and/or intriguing, but it's not possible to do that, so we have the cheap and easy to code option of "Is that a blaster in your durasteel or are you just happy to see me?" being the auto response to every Chiss, Twi'lek and Zabrak this side of Alderaan!

To me, a non-herosexual romance or [Flirt] option would need more time and exposition in this game than is allowable by the constraints of the environment. It's not that the Imperial Officer who rejects the advances of the Twi'lek Smuggler is inherently more interesting because of it, but more that it allows for a greater depth of examination of the world in which they both live - the Officer is not more interesting as a person in this scenario, but as a representation of zie's culture. The story then after would be if our Twi'lek pursued the Officer in an explanation of culture within Imperial society when it in itself is having to advance its current positions on aliens serving in the Military and among the Sith and why and how this cannot carry over into Imperial society.

I am certainly very sorry if my comment on "more interesting" came across to anyone as biphobic and such would never be my intention. I still maintain that sexuality is not necessarily linked to personality and certainly not to worth. I say this as it has just struck my that conversations on "herosexuality" that apply only to gender and not species in this universe could be taken to be biphobic.

Changing existing NPCs in the leveling content will be rather hard - unless they really do just remove the gender check for most of them.

 

It is assumed that companions will be made available, but we do not know how or when.

 

I was referring to leveling NPCs in my post, hence the "50 levels". I said that Bioware will not have SGR only NPCs for 50 levels because, well, every single biological* female companion is available as a romance option for male PCs, whereas not every single biological* male companion is available, which rather implies that making all female companions (and by extension, female romance and [Flirt] NPCs) available to male PCs must be something of a necessity to Bioware.

 

*here non-droid, not cis.

LS Jaesa has become romancable in 2.0?

LS Jaesa has become romancable in 2.0?

You know exactly what I mean, don't be so obtuse.

You know exactly what I mean, don't be so obtuse.

I totally did! But seeing as how it happens to me all the time, I figured it was forum ettiquette!

I recently resubscribed and popped in to see how SGR is coming along in TOR. Such an interesting topic this is to read!

But despite Makeb, I admit I am disappointed that we still don't have truly solid information (be it confirmation or denial) about SGRA being added for Companions in the future! I want to level my Sith Warrior but I also would like him to romance Quinn, sure would be nice if I knew whether SGRA with Companions are anything more than a nebulous possibility at this point. Please, someone correct me if I am wrong, I will be happy. ^_~

As far as the idea of NPC's -- including Companions -- being "herosexual" or being selective, I can see both sides of the debate. But since Bioware's resources are limited, and there are already not a lot of romance choices in the game, I would much prefer NPC's to be herosexual so everyone has a decent amount of choices. Not to mention that NPC's rarely even care about our character's species (sometimes not even when they should!), let alone their body type or morality, so it would strike me as rather unfair for them to start being selective only after same gender romance is being included.

Just my 2 credits, though!

More interesting in the "not going to automagically fall at feet" sense, not "intrinsically a more interesting person because they're not bi and/or herosexual". I mean, it's expected of those in the Empire that they be human supremacists and purists, so anyone who falls outside of the expectation would be interesting for a moral and ethical perspective, but every Imperial [Flirt] NPC falls outside that expectation (unless of course you want to argue that there is a power play because of the nature of the PC, which is reasonable) in that they are herosexual, so the NPC has less of a personality based in the culture because it has been removed for the purposes of making the smexy-times easier.

So, it's more an issue with the mechanics of the romance content? There are only a few interactions with the NPCs in which they take place so they can't get super nuanced as far as preferences go (even companions would be the same for the most part...not a ton of interaction there). This seems to be an issue with romances in other BW games as well. There's only ever so much you will find out about an NPC/companion via dialog.

Well, that's what I thought, too. But I'm also being told by some that I'm "stifling creativity".

 

If anything, I'd think it'd open up some creativity, as you'd have to play through multiple times as various species, classes, and genders to see all of the content? Granted, in its current form, that's not much content, but it'd (hopefully) open the way for more.

Who ever said it stifled creativity was wrong. I mean, whose creativity were they talking about? Because honestly, one of the more interesting things I've seen in the game is Watcher Two being iffy about being friends/romantically involved with non-human Agents... but that still ends happily if you play your cards right. (I personally think the "trait makes it harder to befriend/engage romantically flirt!NPC" thing is more interesting than just a flat refusal from the get go.)

Anyway, what you're doing is taking a limited pool of flirts and restricting the number of happy endings. Some people like that idea, but some people don't. I personally like the possibility of a happy ending, even if you have to jump through some extra hoops to get it because of X or Y trait. Being turned down is... well... a downer. I play to have fun, not to experience angst.

If they did what you're suggesting, they would have to be scrupulously fair about how how evenly the restrictions are applied (ie: if you make too many heterosexual flirts successful compared to homosexual flirts or whatever), lest they be accused of bias (which they will be anyway, some people might see some of the rejections as a slight against <insert sexuality or species or gender here>).

So, it's more an issue with the mechanics of the romance content? There are only a few interactions with the NPCs in which they take place so they can't get super nuanced as far as preferences go (even companions would be the same for the most part...not a ton of interaction there). This seems to be an issue with romances in other BW games as well. There's only ever so much you will find out about an NPC/companion via dialog.

Did part of my post get corrupted or deleted? I can't say I really care that much either way, but because of how this game is done and how it has been done up until now, non-herosexual NPCs (with the obvious exception of Watcher Eight, the model of an Imperial Citizen) aren't really possible or justifiable.

Anyway, what you're doing is taking a limited pool of flirts and restricting the number of happy endings.

Which I am aware of and is the reason why I have said (at least, I believe I have) that they should add in more.

But please note, I realize companions are very limited in numbers... thus they would have to be herosexual (unless they increased the pool of available companions and you could pick and choose which ones stay, and which ones go).

I dont understand the "herosexual" argument. For the JK for example. If you play a male you have 1 romance option. Same for the trooper. So what you are asking for(if I am reading this correctly) is to allow 1 sgra, and 3 ogra options? That does in my mind seem to be asking a bit much from writers and devs.

Herosexual means it does not matter species, gender, or any other "discriminatory" factor, they are capable of (essentially) falling in love with you. They are what the "hero" of the story wants them to be.

So, in the context of this debate, it wouldn't matter if your char was male or female, both the male and female romancable companions would respond to your character and could get married.

I may be wrong, but IIRC at the beginning of the Agent story isn't there an NPC you can flirt with who actually treats you different if you aren't human? I seem to recall that as a chiss the flirt didn't 'work'.

I think things like that are tricky. You'll get a lot of people who will throw hissy fits about being led on. See for example the half-romances with certain party members that don't count as actual full romance paths. I think it could b interesting. However, it does create a few questions. Namely, with all the possible looks and personality choices for players is it going to seem a little off that apparently none of the capable beings of all shapes and sizes and colours parading by this dude or chick is going to attract their eye?

But as I say, I don't see why not. I've always kinda liked Kaliyo for acting, as I tend to put it, more like a PC themself might act. It's be nice to see some more individual will with these characters.

I think things like that are tricky. You'll get a lot of people who will throw hissy fits about being led on. See for example the half-romances with certain party members that don't count as actual full romance paths. I think it could b interesting.

I don't think it's bad per se. Having restrictions based on species, for example, can help tell part of the story/establish lore (i.e., Imperials look down upon inter-species relations). I just don't agree that restrictions are always necessary just for the sake of having them.

However, it does create a few questions. Namely, with all the possible looks and personality choices for players is it going to seem a little off that apparently none of the capable beings of all shapes and sizes and colours parading by this dude or chick is going to attract their eye?

This is also part of the problem with placing romance/flirt restrictions based on properties of the PC...the PC can exist as many variations (gender, species, physical appearance, morality, etc) It is simply easier to write interactions for a 'generic' PC. If they wanted flirting/courting to get more specific and do away with 'herosexuality', they easiest way would be to create a more defined PC (one gender, species, appearance, etc).

When thinking about this topic, I remember the Leliana romance from DA:O and the one flirt she has with the female PC, stating that she really likes the PC's hair. Well, it's possible to create a completely bald female PC in that game so for that specific PC, the comment is out of place A more Star Warsy example would be having a companion/NPC comment on the PC's eyes...problematic if the PC is Miraluka. Basically, the writers would have to be careful if they ever wanted to implement really tight romance restrictions on PCs based on factors such as species, possible appearance, etc.

So, this is vaguely off topic for the current discussion, but while I was trying to get my (male) Inquisitor up to 50 over the weekend, I had a chat with Talos. He gave me a rather generous compliment, telling me how much he's learned from me and how awesome I am. One of the wheel's spokes read "Are you flirting with me?" so I clicked it, only for my Inquisitor to say "Sorry, but you're not my type," resulting in Talos stammering, saying that wasn't what he meant. I had been hoping that they had somehow smuggled SGR into the game, but alas, it was not meant to be.

IMO, I don't know why he wasn't a love interest to begin with. He gives off a rather strong vibe of hero-worship, and is totally adorable. I seriously hope they make an update where he can be romanceable, because it would totally be in his character. He strikes me as an example of a character who could very well be hero-sexual, but hasn't been able to work up the nerve to address it, but could be fleshed out with post-50 content.

Generally speaking, I don't see the problem with hero-sexual NPCs. They already show that to a degree, where characters will compliment you regardless of your appearance (though it currently depends on your gonads). I mean, IRL, there are tons of instances where people who normally swing one way or another would make an exception for someone famous of the non-preferred gender. The PCs seem like they could be that sort of celebrity, as they'd be one of the most celebrated people in the galaxy.

I may be wrong, but IIRC at the beginning of the Agent story isn't there an NPC you can flirt with who actually treats you different if you aren't human? I seem to recall that as a chiss the flirt didn't 'work'.

Two, actually. Samara Mindak will only sleep with you if you're human. Watcher 2 will develop a relationship with a non-human, but in a totally different way than humans, with different conversations at different points in the story (she's very open with the human agent, and kind of sneaks around if you're alien because she doesn't want anyone to see it)

incidentally,I also noticed an male NPC on Nar Shadaa that acts in a way that I could almost describe as mildly flirtatious with male characters, while it doesn't happen with female characters. (he says "oh, such a tease, you'll haunt my sleep at night!" lol)

Which I am aware of and is the reason why I have said (at least, I believe I have) that they should add in more.

Yes, I agree with that and had intended to say something to that effect in my post... but got distracted before I finished the post and posted without finishing it properly.

But please note, I realize companions are very limited in numbers... thus they would have to be herosexual (unless they increased the pool of available companions and you could pick and choose which ones stay, and which ones go).

Yes, I agree with this too. While I'd love current companions to become available, I'll be happy with new herosexual or bisexual companions. And if I get the opportunity, there's several existing companions I'd like to kick off my various ships.