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Problems with the solo queue idea....


UGLYMRJ

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This is just a list of problems I see with the idea and of course just my opinion. Now let's get this started so we can have a mature and friendly debate. No... just kidding... we all know that won't happen.

 

1. It will never happen: The developers have stated time and time again that they want to promote community and team work. This idea completely goes against that idea.

 

2. Populations: Even if it did happen, I don't believe most servers have a strong enough population to support the idea without drastically affecting queue times. Populations are better now with the F2P players, but most of those players will not hit 50 for a few weeks, we will not see many of them in WZ's with the limited amount of matches they get and we'll likely see another population drop when the novelty wears off.

 

3. It will not help the problem: Most of the supporters of the solo queue idea want it because they're tired of being "rolled" by pre-mades. This idea won't help that. If you are solo queuing, you are near as likely to have a pre-made on your team as you to be up against one. Besides that... it decreases both teams chances of having anything close to proper team composition. Which would just in turn create more imbalance within each match.

 

4. Not all pre-mades are good: There are several guilds on just my server alone that make me cringe when we're teamed with them. The idea that all pre-mades are composed of face rolling gods is ridiculous. There are probably more bad pre-mades than good ones.

 

5. It does not promote competitiveness: Rated WZ's are slow enough currently with little incentive to join them. We have a very casual PvP community who do not strive to be better players already. Personally I hate the idea of a bracket that would cater to mediocracy and gives players no incentive to improve or become more competitive.

 

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The one thing that most can agree on is that for MOST fresh 50's the PvP experience can be frustrating. While I'm personally fine with the system as is. Many fresh 50's don't enjoy the fresh 50 grind and I definitely don't think the F2P'ers who enjoy PvP will either, especially with limited play time. However a solo queue will not solve the problem or promote subscriptions. Personally, I think THIS would be a better idea. Maybe not perfect... but I definitely don't think a solo queue bracket would be a positive change or even pacify those who support it. It would likely be a just as frustrating experience for those who are struggling against pre-mades.

Edited by UGLYMRJ
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I agree with everything. Without cross server queues there is no way this could work. Also this game encourages grouping this is an MMO after all.

 

I think they should so something in terms of a recruit bracket...even not putting a cap on it just hitting 50 you get to play X amount of games with all the others, giving you time to gear up and then after that time period its time for a higher level of play.

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Agree.

 

I lost count of the number of "pre-mades" I have gone up against solo-queuing with 7 other pugs, and we ahve steamrolled them.

 

It is true that there are pre-mades I hate to go up against and when I do encounter them, I more or less chalk up a loss, but once in a while my pug group can pull off a win.

 

System is working as intended.

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I think they should so something in terms of a recruit bracket...even not putting a cap on it just hitting 50 you get to play X amount of games with all the others, giving you time to gear up and then after that time period its time for a higher level of play.

 

Yeah... at first and maybe I didn't edit the old thread but said it in the comments... but at first I thought it would be a better idea to have unlimited play in recruit bracket to cater to the 'normalized PvP' idea. But after a few things being pointed out I think a limit is a much better idea and having it unlimited would be bad for the base design of this game.

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I agree with everything. Without cross server queues there is no way this could work. Also this game encourages grouping this is an MMO after all.

 

I think they should so something in terms of a recruit bracket...even not putting a cap on it just hitting 50 you get to play X amount of games with all the others, giving you time to gear up and then after that time period its time for a higher level of play.

 

I really think that they need to bring back the tie of gear to valor ranks, and remove the requirement to have previous tier to get new gear. And with that, separate out the brackets at 50 based on this:

 

Valor 0-60 is one bracket (Recruit - full BM)

Valor 61-100 is one bracket (full BM - Full WH)

 

When they add in the rest of the EWH gear, then they modify:

 

Valor 61-80 is one bracket (full BM - Full WH)

Valor 81-100 is one bracket (full WH - Full EWH)

 

or something. This way people who are freshly starting out in PvP are not continually getting steamrolled by those fully geared and min/maxed players.

 

The downside for this however is those players who level purely via PvP... they will end up at a higher ranka nd higher bracket once they hit 50. However at the same time, they can immediately jump into buying the higher level gear.

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By joining the queue, you are effectively grouping so your logic fails based around the argument that its an MMO and you are supposed to group. I hate being made to warzone to get some pvp as I much prefer open world. That being said I have no issues with people wanting to group or not and punishing solo players, many of whom subscribe is completely unfair. Edited by BoDiE
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I really think that they need to bring back the tie of gear to valor ranks, and remove the requirement to have previous tier to get new gear. And with that, separate out the brackets at 50 based on this:

 

Valor 0-60 is one bracket (Recruit - full BM)

Valor 61-100 is one bracket (full BM - Full WH)

 

When they add in the rest of the EWH gear, then they modify:

 

Valor 61-80 is one bracket (full BM - Full WH)

Valor 81-100 is one bracket (full WH - Full EWH)

 

or something. This way people who are freshly starting out in PvP are not continually getting steamrolled by those fully geared and min/maxed players.

 

The downside for this however is those players who level purely via PvP... they will end up at a higher ranka nd higher bracket once they hit 50. However at the same time, they can immediately jump into buying the higher level gear.

 

The only problem I see with that is for someone who has a 50 waiting to queue and gets his 5 pieces BoL gear sent over to him he can at least now get that and his MH/OH war hero gear and rest BM so that could be problematic with bracketing off of Valor and not expertise. This is assuming any bracketing system could work at all.

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I think my biggest issues with a solo queue outside of what is already in this thread are this:

 

1) For those advocating ranked only for groups: ranked is not meant for groups, it is meant for high level teams, much like a top tier ops group. Teams still need a way to play together when everyone isn't online (your sm ops with PUGs and FPS) or when you simply have a friend or two you want to group with while playing. Adding a solo queue without at least suggesting a group queue outside of ranked shows a serious lack of concern for the population as a whole and reflects a mindset focused solely on what you want.

 

For everyone who just wants the queues separate:

 

2) Group queues will turn into what ranked is now where groups choose not to join because of the level of coordination they will face. This certainly doesn't foster a community of competition and teamwork. A solo queue only serves to embrace the 1v1 deathmatch mentality and will continue to be as imbalanced as it is now. It also does not help with being social and meeting new people as some have claimed. If you were meeting people in PUG warzones now, wouldn't you be grouping with them later, thus negating the need for a solo queue at all?

 

3) Logistics are suspect. How do you match a group of 3 in a group only queue? You can't get a PUG since it's the group queue, so do they have to wait until another 3 man team queues up to get in? Are they forced to kick someone out or pick up another person? None of these options is an enjoyable experience for the individuals involved.

 

4) Groups will still not be even in either queue. You will still get rolled by better skilled and geared players in solo queue without any type of matchmaking system (which is what you really want anyway) just as more casual groups will get rolled by more competitive groups in the group queue. You will also end up with one team having 2 groups of 4 and the other having 4 groups of 2. Is this imbalance still considered ok?

 

It still, ultimately, comes down to population but that is not the only reason that a solo queue will not resolve the issues that have been brought up by those advocating for it. No matter how large a population we end up building, if we continue to break down the queues for each subset of player, everyone will end up in their own queue. It takes teamwork to win this game, whether you are in a group or queuing solo. Why continue frustrating yourself by ALWAYS queuing solo rather than grouping with people who you enjoy playing with? Even when I am in a group, I can tell you that 95% of the chat going on has absolutely NOTHING to do with the objectives of the warzone. There is no more communication than what could be achieved through typing. But I enjoy both my wins and losses far more playing with my friends than I do in queue alone (perhaps group drinking helps as well).

 

***Apologies for ranting in your thread :D

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***Apologies for ranting in your thread :D

 

None necessary... very valid points and honestly... I didn't even consider #3 yet. That would hurt the queue more than I realized at first. The idea alone hurts queue times... and then the numbers adding up on top of that.

 

And then we get into the disconnects... rage quits. Who fills those spots if there are no solo queue's in a grouped bracket?

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1. It will never happen: The developers have stated time and time again that they want to promote community and team work. This idea completely goes against that idea.

 

I completely disagree with this point, it's no different from queuing for Flashpoints and Operations.

Going against community and team work would be restraining people to meet each others.

Solo queues allow people who are initially alone to be with people. In fact it does promote community and team work because it forces you to play with them.

I also believe that group queuing actually alienates people because you'll always play with the same people instead of playing with unknown people, it keeps people from being able to act and react with random people.

 

4. Not all pre-mades are good: There are several guilds on just my server alone that make me cringe when we're teamed with them. The idea that all pre-mades are composed of face rolling gods is ridiculous. There are probably more bad pre-mades than good ones.

 

But I agree on this one, I don't count the number of people who only runs in premade, because when they are in pick-up they got steamrolled and show how they are nothing without the support of a full team.

 

---

 

Is it so obvious I am a hard solo queuer ?

Edited by Altheran
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I completely disagree with this point, it's no different from queuing for Flashpoints and Operations.

Going against community and team work would be restraining people to meet each others.

Solo queues allow people who are initially alone to be with people. In fact it does promote community and team work because it forces you to play with them.

I also believe that group queuing actually alienates people because you'll always play with the same people instead of playing with unknown people, it keeps people from being able to act and react with random people.

 

Very few MMO's have implemented anything like this and it's very unlikely to see it in this MMO which is based on a 4-8 man team composition. You say it promotes community and team work because you're forced to play with people? How is that different from now other than a solo queue idea FURTHER LIMITS THE DIFFERENT PLAYERS YOU'LL BE MATCHED WITH AND AGAINST?

 

I fail to see how separating people into different brackets promotes community. The logic isn't there. You'll meet more people by limiting the amount of people you're grouped with? Help me with the math on that one... I just don't understand how you think that breaks down to dividing is promoting community.

Edited by UGLYMRJ
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The problem behind the scenes is that there is no epic/structured open world pvp to draw people away from instanced 8v8 pvp.

 

From time to time I sit back and am amazed at how much time I spend playing just 4 WZs with the same strategies / counters over and over.

 

Ain't that the truth... it's unsettling to think about how many times I've played the same 10-15 minute matches.

 

However... even with little reward, the section X and HK-51 quests have brought some fun open world for the time being. Hopefully long enough to give us some open world until January with Ilum 2.0.

 

Also hoping Makeb has some open world involved.

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Very few MMO's have implemented anything like this and it's very unlikely to see it in this MMO which is based on a 4-8 man team composition. You say it promotes community and team work because you're forced to play with people? How is that different from now other than a solo queue idea FURTHER LIMITS THE DIFFERENT PLAYERS YOU'LL BE MATCHED WITH AND AGAINST?

 

I fail to see how separating people into different brackets promotes community. The logic isn't there. You'll meet more people by limiting the amount of people you're grouped with? Help me with the math on that one... I just don't understand how you think that breaks down to dividing is promoting community.

 

Ah, but you've never said anything about separating solo and group. I thought you spoke for solo queue in ranked that would never happen.

 

My point was that it's not more social to group queue than to solo queue. Both promote and limit social in their own way.

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Ain't that the truth... it's unsettling to think about how many times I've played the same 10-15 minute matches.

 

However... even with little reward, the section X and HK-51 quests have brought some fun open world for the time being. Hopefully long enough to give us some open world until January with Ilum 2.0.

 

Also hoping Makeb has some open world involved.

 

Here's to hoping my friend. That heroic 4 area in Section X is amazing.

 

Pair high credit reward missions with pvp and you've got a pretty good formula for simple open world pvp.

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Here's to hoping my friend. That heroic 4 area in Section X is amazing.

 

Pair high credit reward missions with pvp and you've got a pretty good formula for simple open world pvp.

 

I also like the idea of putting high grade crafting materials in areas for open world. Simplest thing ever that would help promote it.

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Very few MMO's have implemented anything like this and it's very unlikely to see it in this MMO which is based on a 4-8 man team composition. You say it promotes community and team work because you're forced to play with people? How is that different from now other than a solo queue idea FURTHER LIMITS THE DIFFERENT PLAYERS YOU'LL BE MATCHED WITH AND AGAINST?

 

I fail to see how separating people into different brackets promotes community. The logic isn't there. You'll meet more people by limiting the amount of people you're grouped with? Help me with the math on that one... I just don't understand how you think that breaks down to dividing is promoting community.

 

Because the current system is pushing new people away, hence not building a community. So you are saying you support building a community but only with a system that clearly shows that it doesn't build a community. You are contradicting yourself with your own statements.

 

The current state of PVP doesn't welcome new blood. You even admit to that. If you don't get new blood, then you lose potential groups forming, which in turn lowers the chance of a competitive team from ever forming.

 

If you want to fix that "well what if 3 people want to join..." then just make it groups 4 or groups of 2. That's easy, as far as DC's go...well we deal with that now and sometimes that spot never gets filled. So don't act like solo brackets will magically make DC's a burden for everyone, since it's happening in current warzones.

 

And finally, if solo queue players join a pvp match with other solo players, then they are put on a team. They might see each other often and eventually become friends whom may group up together for pvp. Hence building the community. So yes in fact Solo bracket queue is group play since well...you are still playing with others in a group.

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I also like the idea of putting high grade crafting materials in areas for open world. Simplest thing ever that would help promote it.

 

agree. remember fighting over kryat dragons in SWG (not sure if you played)? Their pearls made great saber parts, and since weapons/armor disintegrate with use everyone needed more materials. That was always fun for PvP.

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agree. remember fighting over kryat dragons in SWG (not sure if you played)? Their pearls made great saber parts, and since weapons/armor disintegrate with use everyone needed more materials. That was always fun for PvP.

 

LoL yes. On my old server Lowca we had a guild CKE (citizens of Krayts End) and they placed there town pretty much on top of the spawn area and they were a terrific PvP guild which made things fun to go krayt hunting.

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...The developers have stated time and time again that they want to promote community and team work. This idea completely goes against that idea.

I agree with the idea of promoting community. I am opposed to preventing guilds & friends from playing together (or at least making it more difficult). However, I am also opposed to forcing hardcore solo players to group or shop for a guild.

 

I have floated this idea before, but I think a neat solution would be a Premade Finder. When you are grouped before & after a WZ (as in a guild premade), you have the opportunity to communicate your preferences, do after-action reviews, and (perhaps most important) teach newer or less-PVP-experienced players some of the strategies or tactics they might not be familiar with.

 

Right now, you see a lot of ALL CAPS tutorials in the heat of a WZ, and far too many conflicting strategies ("2 snow, 6 mid" .... "NO we should do 3 snow and 5 grass."... "NO....") being hashed out while less experienced PUGers run one-at-a-time into a mob of the opposing faction.

 

Granted, some premades are bad, but over time they have the opportunity to learn to work together and improve as a team. A PUG never has this opportunity.

Edited by Varinm
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LoL yes. On my old server Lowca we had a guild CKE (citizens of Krayts End) and they placed there town pretty much on top of the spawn area and they were a terrific PvP guild which made things fun to go krayt hunting.

 

I don't really agree with most of this thread (sorry, I just disagree, there's no point rehashing the same stale, old discussion points), and I'm not really a fan of Open World Ganking... which is what usually happen to open world PvP when there is any sort of population imbalance. Sadly, that's a situation not exactly unknown in SWTOR.

 

Setting that aside however, sticking this sort of crafting material in a free-for-all PvP zone could be a very interesting step forward. I don't think I've seen a game that has had truly engaging World PvP that has had just two factions who fight against each other.

 

Providing a common area for groups/guilds to fight over visible rewards (preferably something that will reduce a grind, but not provide any/much of a statiscal advantage over people who just Warzone to get their PvP gear) will encourage groups to team up to kill a bigger team, then stab each other in the back, or whatever. It would keep things fresher, and make the ability to game the system (as happened in Illum) harder to accomplish due to more variables.

Edited by Tyrias
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Because the current system is pushing new people away, hence not building a community. So you are saying you support building a community but only with a system that clearly shows that it doesn't build a community. You are contradicting yourself with your own statements.

 

The current state of PVP doesn't welcome new blood. You even admit to that. If you don't get new blood, then you lose potential groups forming, which in turn lowers the chance of a competitive team from ever forming.

 

I hope I don't have to repeat this again but here it goes...

 

I'm not saying a change wouldn't be a good thing... I just don't believe this change would be beneifical. I think it would hurt the current state of PvP more than it would help it. And if you ask me the reasons why I'm going to kick a kitten.

Edited by UGLYMRJ
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