I am leveling a sorc. right now at level 26. I am not doing nor plan on doing any PvP anytime soon. I have been leveling with the lightning skill tree, but was wondering if I could get some advice from those who play the class. I am looking for a good build to level quickly and provide good dps once I hit level 50. Based on some trolling, I was wondering if the madness tree is ideally the best one to go with while leveling? Or is the lightning tree better? Or perhaps a hybrid? I've read that once I get to 50 that madness builds are the best dps for sorcs, but what about leveling? Thank you for any input.

For leveling, I honestly like the hybrid specs that give you both Chain Lightning and Death Field. You use Chain Lightning as an opener on trash groups and then follow with instant cast Death Field. Follow with a Force Storm if needed and you will clear most trash groups in three casts, even groups of 4 or 5.

 

I personally prefer the old 0/13/28 hybrid build because it gives you great AOE mixed with some of the upper-tier madness boosts that will help you in boss fights. You can actually go with even more AOE if you put at least 15 points into Lightning Storm and Lightning Effusion, letting you use instant Chain Lightnings. But that may be more than you actually need at the sacrifice of single-target DPS.

 

End game, full Lightning or Madness is where it's at. I prefer Madness for mobility.

While levelling I went up in Lightning first to gain Chain Lightning and have it proc off Force Storm. Then I got Death Field. Combine this with the AoE that Andronikos and Ashara can use (trigger them manually), and you can kill large packs at immense speed. The single target damage is lacking, unfortunately, but those are not as much present as groups of 3-4 mobs.

For leveling, I honestly like the hybrid specs that give you both Chain Lightning and Death Field. You use Chain Lightning as an opener on trash groups and then follow with instant cast Death Field. Follow with a Force Storm if needed and you will clear most trash groups in three casts, even groups of 4 or 5.

 

I personally prefer the old 0/13/28 hybrid build because it gives you great AOE mixed with some of the upper-tier madness boosts that will help you in boss fights. You can actually go with even more AOE if you put at least 15 points into Lightning Storm and Lightning Effusion, letting you use instant Chain Lightnings. But that may be more than you actually need at the sacrifice of single-target DPS.

 

End game, full Lightning or Madness is where it's at. I prefer Madness for mobility.

 

 

Actually, the single target dps of 0/18/23 is the same as full madness for me, but with much better force management.

 

I pally the loss of higher dot damage by using shock on cooldown, which the better force management allows. Its very high dps, and if the Gods of RnG likes you, awesome burst if Wrath pop in each FL, Lightning barrage and insta force lightning, I got up to 1300 dps on elites, versus a constant of 1k about with my current gear.

 

On a 5 minute parsing on a dummy, both reported 1050 dps about.

Even before the nerf, 0/18/23 was less DPS than 0/13/28. The only thing the 0/18/23 build gives you is extra force management, but I can't think of a situation leveling where running out of force was an issue. That's really only possible in raid boss fights. I can see wanting to go higher up the lightning tree for instant-Chain Lightning procs, but the problem I have with those builds is that they start to confuse your rotation. You end up needing both force lightning and lightning strike for procs, and that just doesn't make a lot of sense.

Even before the nerf, 0/18/23 was less DPS than 0/13/28. The only thing the 0/18/23 build gives you is extra force management, but I can't think of a situation leveling where running out of force was an issue. That's really only possible in raid boss fights. I can see wanting to go higher up the lightning tree for instant-Chain Lightning procs, but the problem I have with those builds is that they start to confuse your rotation. You end up needing both force lightning and lightning strike for procs, and that just doesn't make a lot of sense.

 

Its situationnal sure. But damage is the same since madness on a constant dps burns force. Pre nerf of 0/13/28 sure, you blew chain lightning on wrath anyway. But now, you still cast lightning strike with extra wrath proc. So it sometimes also proc a chain lightning to add to your rotation, and also I cast shock every 6 seconds, something pure madness can't do often since it leads to lack of force.

 

Its not a fixed rotation, sure its a lot more bursty, but that chain lightning every 10-15 sec with the higher dps value of shock with chain shock i think cover it, and give me more flexibility, mostly at the cost of on-demand burst.

 

Rotation is a priority list that looks like that pretty much:

 

-affliction

-death field

-FL till wrath procs (normally one or 2)

- wrath powered Crushing darkness

 

Then its a priority list.

 

If wrath is procced and CD not within 3 sec of coming off cd

Shock

Lightning strike

 

If wrath is not procced

-Lightgning barrage FL

-shock

-FL

 

Instant CL last for a few seconds, so single target you don't HAVE to cast it ASAP, and it looks a bit like that:

 

Shock

Wrath powered lightning strike

Chain lightning

 

 

Top priority remains holding dots and DF deathmarms on the target. I normally try to sync DF and CD to simplify thing.

 

But pretty much getting same dps when going full madness or 18/23. I simply have more flexibility and AoE.

 

So yes, its more complex (I realize that trying to explain it) but parser says I pull good numbers for my gear, knowing sorc single-target dps is currently lacking a bit compared to mara.

You might feel like it does the same DPS, but it doesn't. These builds have been tested with parsers and SimC data. For one, a Wrath-proc'd lightning strike does less damage than simply spamming force lightning. Every time you use lightning strike, you are gimping your DPS. And if you use wrath on lightning strike, you risk it not being available off cooldown for Crushing Darkness.

 

As for Madness eating force, that just isn't the case. It's actually a force positive rotation if you put points into electric induction. Even if you don't, you will never run out of force while leveling. Fights simply don't last long enough. Same goes for the 0/13/28 hybrid. Both give you better DPS than a 0/18/23 build.

 

Put simply, if you get the same DPS with a 0/18/23 build as you do with full madness, you aren't running full madness properly.

Edited November 22, 2012 by SoonerJBD

I'm not eyeballing numbers here. I parsed both, and my rotation for the 0/18/23 does the same damage about. I don't remember making too many mistakes with madness either, and as said priority remains CD with wrath, but when its on a 15 sec cd with more than 6 sec remaining, I'll shoot lightning strikes with it, and they normally do around 2k, compared to 1,1k ticks on FL on crits. The kicker comes when CL also proc, giving me a noticeable burst. Madness does keep the advantage of being internal damage, but it seems like the way I'm running it works well for me. Beong a subscriber I always parse with different spec to see their progression, but results i got are coherent with expected dps for a sorc with my gear, and all very close to each other, weither we are talking about madness, lightning (was my lowest, but also the one about which I'm less sure I'm optimizing)

 

As far as FP and raid went, on the few I did it seems I pull my weight, and even sometimes pull from the tank at start if I'm not careful, which means I'm the 2nd highest threat at that point. So does madness beats it single-target wise? Maybe. It would be strange if it didn't. But its perfectly viable as a DPS build endgame from what I see up to now.

 

I however have yet to try the 13/28 build which does seem nice by higher dot effectiveness, at the cost of slightly reducted AoE effectiveness.

 

Do understand I'm not "camped" on my position here. Simply experimenting. I do suspect tough, that as my alacrity increases FL will start pulling ahead more as far as dps goes.

 

Edit 1 : 2 typo and small conclusion

 

Edit 2 : edit message

Edited November 22, 2012 by verfallen

You might feel like it does the same DPS, but it doesn't. These builds have been tested with parsers and SimC data. For one, a Wrath-proc'd lightning strike does less damage than simply spamming force lightning. Every time you use lightning strike, you are gimping your DPS. And if you use wrath on lightning strike, you risk it not being available off cooldown for Crushing Darkness.

 

As for Madness eating force, that just isn't the case. It's actually a force positive rotation if you put points into electric induction. Even if you don't, you will never run out of force while leveling. Fights simply don't last long enough. Same goes for the 0/13/28 hybrid. Both give you better DPS than a 0/18/23 build.

 

Put simply, if you get the same DPS with a 0/18/23 build as you do with full madness, you aren't running full madness properly.

 

Agree with all of this pretty much.

 

However, 0/18/23 would probably work fine for soloing dailies, where the better AOE would be nice, but in a raid situation, it'll be a good bit inferior.

Ok so parsed the different spec a bit. They all gave 1100 dps.

 

I currently have still mostly non end-game gear, armoring are the 23 from daily comm vendor, enhencements and mods are mostly 22s purple, got columni gloves, boot and offhand, with rakata stalker and columni force-master

Implants, and tionese mainhand.

 

My stats are 702 bonus damage, 34,34% crit, 74,77% surge and 8,52% alacrity, if any of you want to check. Maybe I'm not playing madness optimally, but I don't believe I make a critical mistake either, and that the dps I'm giving you fits my current gear limit.

 

The "force positive" rotation is pretty much lightning and dots, DF on CD as far as i could tell, shock used very carefully. It does mean my burst is more on demand, at the cost of force (suddenly, shock on cooldown) while what I'm running now is pure random procs, which I grant is a weakness that can be rather critical in some boss phases. But the sustained seems comparable. The stronger AoE comes useful on thrash packs, like the EV ones in between annihilator droid and Gharj.

 

So top dps? Maybe not. Good dps? I think so. Fairly sure I beat pure lightning in an ops fight where you have to move at any rate.

Ok so parsed the different spec a bit. They all gave 1100 dps.

 

I currently have still mostly non end-game gear, armoring are the 23 from daily comm vendor, enhencements and mods are mostly 22s purple, got columni gloves, boot and offhand, with rakata stalker and columni force-master

Implants, and tionese mainhand.

 

My stats are 702 bonus damage, 34,34% crit, 74,77% surge and 8,52% alacrity, if any of you want to check. Maybe I'm not playing madness optimally, but I don't believe I make a critical mistake either, and that the dps I'm giving you fits my current gear limit.

 

The "force positive" rotation is pretty much lightning and dots, DF on CD as far as i could tell, shock used very carefully. It does mean my burst is more on demand, at the cost of force (suddenly, shock on cooldown) while what I'm running now is pure random procs, which I grant is a weakness that can be rather critical in some boss phases. But the sustained seems comparable. The stronger AoE comes useful on thrash packs, like the EV ones in between annihilator droid and Gharj.

 

So top dps? Maybe not. Good dps? I think so. Fairly sure I beat pure lightning in an ops fight where you have to move at any rate.

 

It's a simple fact that you are losing dps using that build. As it was stated earlier you are losing dps every time you are casting lightning strike, even if it procs off of wrath. It's simple math.

There's no reason to go over it, this spec was lower dps before it was nerfed.

It's a simple fact that you are losing dps using that build. As it was stated earlier you are losing dps every time you are casting lightning strike, even if it procs off of wrath. It's simple math.

There's no reason to go over it, this spec was lower dps before it was nerfed.

 

But how much less, thats the question. 50? 100? 10?

 

Before writting off a build as unviable, there is also the matter its actually funnier to play with more abilities, and over here I have issue with how the heck a 1,4k instant lightning strike is less dps than 2,9k channelled lightning, especially if CL instant cast procs from it.

 

Then come AoE in thrash pulls, if I catch 3-4 enemies in the force storm, its a very probable proc in many thrash phases.

 

So stop hiding behind "ya but maths say its less dps" without making more of a point.

 

I gave you my stats, if you love maths so much, give me the "numbers" I should expect. Or an alacrity threshold where what you say come true? There is a lot of variable in play here, that can either help your build or mine. Ex, is it worth it if there is no other cast than force lightning's channel to stack alacrity at all, or am I better off with only surge.

 

Is there a point where the alacrity number will actually clearly make FL the "obviously" superior dps, more than a surge heavy build where the DR start being harsh?

 

Seriously, I'm not taking people for idiots, I believe them they saw a math demonstration "where wrath powered lightning strike is less dps than force lightning". All I'm looking for is an explanation of what the parameter of that result where, if you know the class, how much dps should I expect from my current stats and how much more i could get with full madness or the cookie cutter hybrid you are talking about.

 

Don't treat me like an idiotic noob who can't read and is camped on its position, I've read perfectly the first time someone brought that point to the thread, and I believe my post about my build and how it works for me deserves a more specific answer than a stats i've read just before doing it.

I don't think anyone said your build isn't viable. Just that it isn't optimal. Full madness, full lightning or a 1/12/28 hybrid all parse higher.

Sorry to come in sounding like a complete noob, but what is this hybrid spec that people talk so much about, for whatever reason I can't seem to actually find it in a talent builder. For leveling purposes if somebody would be able to give me maybe a guideline of which order to pick which talents I would be forever grateful. Thank you for all of this wonderful information!

Sorry to come in sounding like a complete noob, but what is this hybrid spec that people talk so much about, for whatever reason I can't seem to actually find it in a talent builder. For leveling purposes if somebody would be able to give me maybe a guideline of which order to pick which talents I would be forever grateful. Thank you for all of this wonderful information!

 

This was the hybrid that used to be really popular.

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#201ZfzMMdZcMfRsMkrc.2

 

It still works well for leveling because you can use chain lightning as an opener on trash groups and then follow with death field. The AOE is really nice for clearing groups. End game, chain lighting is now useless in this build because it has a 3 second cast time. Some people still use a variation of this, taking the point from chain lighting and putting it into seeping darkness in the corruption tree.

 

This build is OK for endgame, but a full lightning or madness build will give you slightly better DPS. I prefer madness for its mobility.

Before writting off a build as unviable, there is also the matter its actually funnier to play with more abilities, and over here I have issue with how the heck a 1,4k instant lightning strike is less dps than 2,9k channelled lightning, especially if CL instant cast procs from it.

 

umm, lol?

 

1400 lightning strike x2 = 2800 damage in 3 seconds.

 

Force lightning with that number = 2900 damage in 2.7 seconds

 

Also, using wrath proc on LS has the chance of delaying your next wrath CD.

Verfallen,

 

You seem genuinely interested in figuring out the build DPS priority level.

 

Quantitatively tested, proven, retested, and re-proven results are posted over at MMO-Mechanics.

 

The results have not changed in some time:

 

Full Lightning (3/31/7) is top DPS. Period. [100%]

Full Madness (3/7/31) trails by ~2% [98%]

Hybrid (1/12/28) trails a further 3% [95%]

 

For starters, the build you are using (0/18/23) is fairly close to the old 0/17/24 build we had pre-1.2. Why is that important to know? With the change to CL this build, when played perfectly, is still inferior to the Hybrid build.

 

When you introduce further inefficiency (Talenting CL and then Wrath-LS Casts) you increase that disparity.

 

Basically, every new Sorc attempted to legitimize using LS off of Wrath at some point early on because we “felt” like it was increasing our DPS or Burst.

 

It never was.

 

Unfortunately, we no longer have Daellia around to bash the community over the head with the obvious…

 

I unfortunately do not have it in front of me right now (and someone correct me if I am wrong) but shouldn’t a basic Hybrid build be pulling at least 1,200 DPS at this level?

Edited November 25, 2012 by -IceHawk-

umm, lol?

 

1400 lightning strike x2 = 2800 damage in 3 seconds.

 

Force lightning with that number = 2900 damage in 2.7 seconds

 

Also, using wrath proc on LS has the chance of delaying your next wrath CD.

 

I would like to understand how you come to 2800 over 3 seconds, since GCD seems slightly under 1,5 (to be sure I checked with my 1,4 sec cast on LS and it was shorter) and i'm never using it on cast, just instant. It would seem to be 1400 dps no?

 

In the end tough, I doubt with my current gear I can pull 1200 parses. I get 1250 on level 50 champs, but I'm a lot more bursty, and if I get lucky on the procs, my DPS seems to raise in the 1300ish range on elites fight. Lack of luck seems to drop it to 1050 1100 (one fight in particular where Wrath failed to proc over 4 FL, elite was pretty much dead when it finally did)

 

I do believe you the others may very well pull forward on dummies. I've seem lightning's numbers, and getting used to madness probably allows better force management (I found using 1 stack of consumption on CD gives more force and the health loss is quickly covered by self-heals and DF) but I'm fairly sure I'll stay with that spec for a number of reasons:

 

1st I'm at this point convinced my dps is not riding far under the "cookie cutter" hybrid

2nd Better force management allows me to use shock on cd

3rd much more fun to play than pure madness (dot-Df-FL CD Fl Fl Fl Fl df CD!) since i use more abilities, and I find I have a certain versatility.

 

At similar gear, I also seems to be riding at the same numbers my friend's arsenal merc enough to be 2nd threat rather often if khem drops the mob.

 

Pure lightning, its nice but for turret play I got a sniper, and imo in live ops bosses aren't dummies and I'm sure madness-using spec pulls ahead in most case.

Edited November 26, 2012 by verfallen