I identify as lesbian IRL, I relate better to female character, and I relate better to female/female romances. It should absolutely be an option for me to play lesbian characters. Not because it reflects RL to have LGBT people in the game (which it does anyway), but because I, as a lesbian, want to have the option to play a character like me. (This should go for everyone, I add for clarity, not just me.)

I've been for SGR in the game since the beginning. I get that people want to play themselves in game. Makes sense, I guess, I've never made myself in any MMO, but I know there's people who somehow can't make a character that doesn't truely represent themselves.

But the question is based on your comment, where in the game has it ever stopped you from playing a lesbian?

Looking back over all the game, I've yet to see anywhere where it stops you from playing a lesbian.

Does a lack of flirt options stop your character from being a lesbian? Does a lack of romance story lines, stop you from saying your character is a lesbian?

What because there are no flirt options means your character can't find whatever NPC attractive? If that's the case, shouldn't they just give a flirt option with every NPC in game, since someone might think that NPC is attractive to their character?

I've played a Sith Inquisitor (basically OGR as I see her), a Smuggler (Bi), SW (Poly - which BW will never implement ), BH (Bi) all to level 44-50 levels. My smuggler has seen the most flirt lines, and even then, it really isn't that many flirt options. My JK hasn't had many flirt options either, but that's only up to level 23-25

So it's not like these OGR flirt options are making your character OGR, as you can just not select them. And even with SGR flirt options put in (YAY!) it'll be just like the OGR flirt options "Awww...why no flirt option for this NPC?!"

To the other poster, there is nothing unfair about what BW did with Makeb and SGR. They made the planet quest givers SGR flirtable. They're the planet quest giver, so it's not like there are a lot of those. They then threw in SGR flirts for both genders on both sides.

Unfair would be if they just made the planet quest giver SGR flirtable and left it at that. And from what's been said (I haven't confirmed) it sounds like they put SGR flirts on planets before Makeb, so you don't have to get to 50 first to see them.

I just had to comment on this, as I find it interesting.

 

I would like to believe (optimist that I am) that were humanity on this planet find itself in a Galactic environment, populated with sophisticated civilized life considerably different on a biological scale, that the notion of skin color defining race would fall away. That people of Earth-stock would consider themselves of one race -- the Human Race -- as opposed to the other races in the galaxy.

 

When I'm building a character in TOR, skin color is merely an aesthetic that I pick for whatever reason I feel like at the time. I don't consider I'm making a white person or a black person or a yellow person or a blue person. I do consider I'm making a Human or a Miraluka or a Twi'lek though.

 

When I put on a companion customization and their skin changes color, I don't consider I'm changing their race. Actually, until your post above, my mind didn't even go there at all.

 

Now, I'm not trying to argue about weather or not there should be a "companion customization" that changes sexuality. But I am trying to say that I consider skin color in this game has no bearing on race.

Sure, but then the entire concept of "race" would fall away. We wouldn't be "the human race" we would be "the human species," because race is a division of groups within our species. If we stopped classifying people into ethnic groups, "race" wouldn't have a meaning anymore.

It's an example. If you change a person's skin color and expect no change in their personality, congrats, your head is in the right place. If you realize that, hopefully you can also realize that changing their sexuality shouldn't require any broader consequences.

People on both sides of the issue have said that herosexuality would be bad because they seem to think that making a character change sexuality without fundamentally changing who they are is sloppy. As if Mako being gay would change anything else about her. It makes me really sad that even some of those on the progressive side of this issue don't see how regressive that thinking is.

I identify as lesbian IRL, I relate better to female character, and I relate better to female/female romances. It should absolutely be an option for me to play lesbian characters. Not because it reflects RL to have LGBT people in the game (which it does anyway), but because I, as a lesbian, want to have the option to play a character like me. (This should go for everyone, I add for clarity, not just me.)

And I'm certainly not trying to deny you that, or somehow say that you can't.

The other thing to bear in mind is that there are many many people playing each class - and yet the storyline acts like you are the only one of that class. Having one or two members of the crew for that character being bisexual (or potentially gay/lesbian) is quite possible and within the proportions you'd expect for a universe filled with billions of people*. Even if every class has two herosexual companions (which may well be the way things work out, if they ever get around to adding SGRA with companions), it's still quite possible/realistic statistically speaking**.

The part in bold... a point of contention I have with this game, but is off-topic for here. Otherwise, you are absolutely correct... however, the chances of all of them being bi are slim. But nonetheless, it still comes down to the story writer, how they envisioned the character(s).

Sometimes people with things/attributes in common group together. Shocking, I know.

Except for one problem... so far, each of the class stories I've started and run, most of the companions don't join your group because they "like you". It's because you have a common end goal, no choice, or some level of prestige. Thus, sexuality plays no roll.

To the other poster, there is nothing unfair about what BW did with Makeb and SGR. They made the planet quest givers SGR flirtable. They're the planet quest giver, so it's not like there are a lot of those. They then threw in SGR flirts for both genders on both sides.

 

Unfair would be if they just made the planet quest giver SGR flirtable and left it at that. And from what's been said (I haven't confirmed) it sounds like they put SGR flirts on planets before Makeb, so you don't have to get to 50 first to see them.

I'm... assuming that was directed towards me? I haven't said anything about the current setup being unfair. I am merely discussing the point of making all flirt-able NPCs bi.

People on both sides of the issue have said that herosexuality would be bad because they seem to think that making a character change sexuality without fundamentally changing who they are is sloppy. As if Mako being gay would change anything else about her. It makes me really sad that even some of those on the progressive side of this issue don't see how regressive that thinking is.

Well, the act of changing someone's sexuality does actually change who they are... even if it is not overtly noticed. But I'm not saying it'd be sloppy. (And actually, frankly, I think they have other, bigger problems with their whole story setup... but that's digressing.) For me, personally, it breaks a level of immersion to know that every flirt-able NPC is bi. We may be in a world of "your hero's story" (which frankly makes no sense in an MMO...), but reality is that not everyone you flirt with is going to accept your advance... just like how Dorne turns down the Trooper's advances before becoming your companion (that's my experience with running it, anyway. Don't know if anyone else had a different one).

Sooo... Some straight, some gay, and some bi. We talk about accurately depicting the current state of society or reality in this game where romance is concerned, why is it that RL suddenly goes out the window when someone asks who should be SGR?

Sooo... Some straight, some gay, and some bi. We talk about accurately depicting the current state of society or reality in this game where romance is concerned, why is it that RL suddenly goes out the window when someone asks who should be SGR?

RL is irrelevant to both arguments.

I figured knowing my republic character would have a chance to find love would give me the drive to finally play the Jedi Knight story. I'd never been able to go through with it before because having Kira at my side and not being able to see some of the content I'm most excited for is both disheartening and enraging.

But I figured, hey.. She might not be able to romance Kira, the one I'm most interested in, but at least she won't have to be in the lonely hearts club anymore. So I made a female Jedi Knight that I really like. She's cute and fiery, not to mention deadly. I bought her some cool adaptive armor, and bought her all the Class Mission XP boosts in her legacy.

I was playing her this weekend, and enjoying it quite a bit. She's really cool, and I was having a lot of fun. Then I got to the first moment where I'm looking at Kira and I know that if it weren't for my chosen gender, the conversation I'm having would have a lot more meaning. I had to stop.

I logged out, and now I'm once again staring at the character creation screen, trying to think of how I can make a male Jedi that appeals to me enough to not make me mad every time I look at him. I have to either miss out on one of the things I want to see most, or create a character that I'll always know is less cool (to me) than the one I want to make and could make, except that there's a stupid restriction in place.

I don't give a damn how realistic it is that I might pine after someone who doesn't want me back. It's just not freaking fun. "Oh, it's such a realistic story of a broken heart. It's so sad, not everyone can be with the one they love!" Screw that. If I want to feel sad I'll go read Schindler's List.

I should be okay with being short changed because you think it makes for a good story? I should sit on the bench and watch the privileged kids have fun because that's how life is? That attitude really ticks me off. I'm sitting here locked out of something I really want to enjoy and I should be cool with that because you think it creates a nuanced story? I'm sorry but no! I'm not cool with it!

I'm not going to be told I should be happy with my sad story of unrequited love while the other side gets to have their happy love story, just because while she can find it in her heart to love a human, twilek, cyborg, or even sith, making her able to love a woman at the same time as someone else's Kira loves a man is so "unrealistic".

If Kira wasn't able to be romanced at all, that'd be one thing. But I'm sorry, it's just not cool to sit there and know that if I'd made the "right" gender choice at character creation, I'd be enjoying the content I want to enjoy right now. That turns it into a really crappy choice, where no matter what I pick I'm not happy.

I'm invested in my characters, not coolly detached. That's the way I like it. That's what I get enjoyment out of. I'm vicariously living through some really cool characters, and I don't want to be held back in the same way I am in real life. "Sorry, she just isn't into you," is not fun and I don't appreciate you using the realism of sexuality as a way to bar me from enjoying what I want to enjoy.

Especially because your arguments are ignorant and baseless. There is no reason why it's bad story telling. That's really, really, really narrow minded. "Kira isn't gay, that's just the way it is!" Well it doesn't have to be the way it is. There's no good reason that has to be the way it is! She can be gay in my game and straight in yours, there is no compromise to our individual stories! Just like in your game the Jedi Knight might be a male Twi'lek and in mine she might be a female human, and in neither is the story compromised by that! The entire argument against it just makes no sense.

I'm sick of it! I try to be reasonable and nice. I try to spell everything out, explain the shortcomings of these arguments against fun on the basis of realism. But some people just don't get it. Well maybe this will get through. Maybe letting you see some of the passion I have for the subject will make you understand that it's more than just cold reason.

It matters! Yea, it's just a game, but story is a huge part of my life. I'm a writer. I listen to 5 to 10 books a month. I may have never climbed Everest, but I was there with Luke Skywalker when he made the trench run. This is where I find joy, and I won't be told that's not valid. So yea, it matters to me.

I could walk away from this story, there are hundreds of others just waiting for me. Even though Star Wars is a big part of my life, having been a creative inspiration from childhood... Even though I've been looking forward to this game for years.. Even though BioWare's methods of story telling, letting me put my hands in the creative muck and shape the story, is extremely appealing...

Even though all those things are true, I could walk away from it and take my disappointment and move on. But I've been strung along with promises. Besides, I don't want to walk away, I love this game and this story and the promise it offers just beyond the bend.

I'm not mad at BioWare, I'm disappointed. I'm mad at the people here trying to invalidate what I want to enjoy because they don't think it makes good story telling. People trying to tell me that I should be just as happy getting the opposite of what I enjoy just because they think it's more realistic. That's what makes me mad.

Whatever ends up happening with this game, fine. Life moves on. But don't sit there and try to tell me that I'm being unreasonable and that I should be fine with it. I'm not fine with it, and my reasons are perfectly valid.

I'm... assuming that was directed towards me? I haven't said anything about the current setup being unfair. I am merely discussing the point of making all flirt-able NPCs bi.

But then how is that fair the artist who envisioned that character to be not be bi. Hell take it even further and say that there is only same sex flirts for certain NPCs, but to make EVERY NPC that is flirtable bi is not fair, not to the artist or the community. It's not logical, and not realistic. You can say this is Star Wars and none of it is real, but there is a sense of realism when it comes to the personalities of the NPCs in the game. The artists, designers, and writers have a vision to create, and it is THEIR vision.

If you want that kind of choice and creative, go play Second Life!

For me, personally, it breaks a level of immersion to know that every flirt-able NPC is bi.

It all boils down to this very basic failure to comprehend. They aren't necessarily bi! They might be, but it's just as feasible that, in your story they are gay, or straight, or whatever works for your story. What they do in Joe Schmoe's story has no bearing on who they are in yours.

Yes, the herosexual woman you flirted with on your female character could be straight in an alternate universe where your character is male, but that doesn't make her bi. It's another universe, entirely separate from the one you are experiencing, in which she's gay.

The "Your hero's story" doesn't make sense in an MMO? It's the only way it makes sense! Or do you think that security officer is really sitting there having pretty much the exact same conversation and asking for the exact same task to be done 1000 times a day? No, he has that conversation once, with your character, and that is the canon of your character's universe. In a parallel universe, someone else is having a similar conversation, and that is their hero's story.

There is a reason that by default, people of the same class can't exist in the same story instance. There is only one "Jedi Knight Hero", only one "Smuggler Hero" and so on. When you create a character, you determine who that hero is in your story. Those other knights and smugglers don't exist in your world. You can play with them for gameplay reasons, but as far as the story is concerned, they don't exist.

How else could you rectify anything in this game?

But then how is that fair the artist who envisioned that character to be not be bi. Hell take it even further and say that there is only same sex flirts for certain NPCs, but to make EVERY NPC that is flirtable bi is not fair, not to the artist or the community. It's not logical, and not realistic. You can say this is Star Wars and none of it is real, but there is a sense of realism when it comes to the personalities of the NPCs in the game. The artists, designers, and writers have a vision to create, and it is THEIR vision.

 

If you want that kind of choice and creative, go play Second Life!

Their vision, yes, but also their bank books, their subscription numbers, their profit margin...you get the idea.

The folks at EAWare are doing this for money, don't kid yourself otherwise. They're hired to come up with the content, and they do what they're told. A writer of books writes what they wish, and the work will sink or swim on its own merits with the immutable content therein, but in a game, catering to the customer base is almost universally considered a good idea.

The answer is quite simple. Create character as normal, then before you enter the game, the very last step says "System will read character as *Male---*Female (pick one)". You constructed a female character, and all will see her as such. But the system, due to your last choice, will compute the game as having her being exactly the opposite, and NPC dialogue choices will be adjusted accordingly. I have no idea why they didn't figure this out, it seems so absurdly simple and inexpensive in its execution.

The answer is quite simple. Create character as normal, then before you enter the game, the very last step says "System will read character as *Male---*Female (pick one)". You constructed a female character, and all will see her as such. But the system, due to your last choice, will compute the game as having her being exactly the opposite, and NPC dialogue choices will be adjusted accordingly. I have no idea why they didn't figure this out, it seems so absurdly simple and inexpensive in its execution.

It's not that simple. What if I don't want my female character referred to as a man? What if she isn't cross gender, but gay? Am I supposed to be happy with my female character having a male voice? If not, what happens when we get to the romances and there are no lines recorded by the female voice actress?

It's not that simple. What if I don't want my female character referred to as a man? What if she isn't cross gender, but gay? Am I supposed to be happy with my female character having a male voice? If not, what happens when we get to the romances and there are no lines recorded by the female voice actress?

All very good points, but I, for one, would be willing to overlook all of them save for the very last. I concede that not having dialogue in the appropriate gender would be rather disconcerting and/or annoying.

It has been a long time, so I am not exactly sure where I heard (read) it, but according to this 'source', the dialogue for SGRA had already been recorded, and was simply not included (because EAWare was 'concentrating on delivering a polished introductory product' or whatever). I am in no way claiming that I was reading a true statement, but if it is true (though I know EAWare would never confirm it one way or the other), then I would imagine they'll have some irritated customers who put their game experience on indefinite hold while they fiddled around and essentially ignored threads like this. If I can find the locations where the already-recorded dialogue is discussed, I will pin it up here posthaste.

I figured knowing my republic character would have a chance to find love would give me the drive to finally play the Jedi Knight story. I'd never been able to go through with it before because having Kira at my side and not being able to see some of the content I'm most excited for is both disheartening and enraging.

 

<snip for brevity>

 

I'm not mad at BioWare, I'm disappointed. I'm mad at the people here trying to invalidate what I want to enjoy because they don't think it makes good story telling. People trying to tell me that I should be just as happy getting the opposite of what I enjoy just because they think it's more realistic. That's what makes me mad.

 

Whatever ends up happening with this game, fine. Life moves on. But don't sit there and try to tell me that I'm being unreasonable and that I should be fine with it. I'm not fine with it, and my reasons are perfectly valid.

Bravo and exceedingly well-said.

http://madsabroo.tumblr.com/post/46791745275/ranty-post-about-sw-tor-romances

Some interesting points raised about the romances in this game, specifically the author's interpretation of "assert male independence/dominance" with male companions and characters respectively.

I wonder if the SGR versions of those romances (let's assume for the sake of argument that all romance companions get SGRAs) would have the same strict independence and roles being defined by the Male Companion and a similar power dynamic being used by the Male Character.

And then you'd have the more submissive/chasing themes from the female companion and character.

These are where you are more likely to see a shift in companion personalities.

Ugh, I'll have to YouTube the romances soon to give more detail and evidence to support the claims in the blog post, just so that we can have a discourse about this which doesn't into "I need SCREENSHORTS".

And for the record, my Smug is 27 and we're both finding Corso a little insufferable.

I'm... assuming that was directed towards me? I haven't said anything about the current setup being unfair. I am merely discussing the point of making all flirt-able NPCs bi.

Don't think so. The poster's post was deleted though, sooo, I could be mistaken, but I believe it was someone else.

But then how is that fair the artist who envisioned that character to be not be bi. Hell take it even further and say that there is only same sex flirts for certain NPCs, but to make EVERY NPC that is flirtable bi is not fair, not to the artist or the community. It's not logical, and not realistic. You can say this is Star Wars and none of it is real, but there is a sense of realism when it comes to the personalities of the NPCs in the game. The artists, designers, and writers have a vision to create, and it is THEIR vision.

 

If you want that kind of choice and creative, go play Second Life!

That's a tremendously silly argument in a game with so much dialogue and actions that are up to the player. If we followed that logic there should be no dialogue options or choices for character actions in game, it should all be a single script. You want to backtalk Darth Baras? Nope, sorry, the artist wants you to respect his character. You want to kill Thana Vesh? Nope, sorry, the artist doesn't want his character to die. You want to make a Dark Side Jedi? Nope, sorry, the artist wants all Jedi to be Light Side.

I figured knowing my republic character would have a chance to find love would give me the drive to finally play the Jedi Knight story. I'd never been able to go through with it before because having Kira at my side and not being able to see some of the content I'm most excited for is both disheartening and enraging.

 

But I figured, hey.. She might not be able to romance Kira, the one I'm most interested in, but at least she won't have to be in the lonely hearts club anymore. So I made a female Jedi Knight that I really like. She's cute and fiery, not to mention deadly. I bought her some cool adaptive armor, and bought her all the Class Mission XP boosts in her legacy.

 

I was playing her this weekend, and enjoying it quite a bit. She's really cool, and I was having a lot of fun. Then I got to the first moment where I'm looking at Kira and I know that if it weren't for my chosen gender, the conversation I'm having would have a lot more meaning. I had to stop.

 

I logged out, and now I'm once again staring at the character creation screen, trying to think of how I can make a male Jedi that appeals to me enough to not make me mad every time I look at him. I have to either miss out on one of the things I want to see most, or create a character that I'll always know is less cool (to me) than the one I want to make and could make, except that there's a stupid restriction in place.

 

I don't give a damn how realistic it is that I might pine after someone who doesn't want me back. It's just not freaking fun. "Oh, it's such a realistic story of a broken heart. It's so sad, not everyone can be with the one they love!" Screw that. If I want to feel sad I'll go read Schindler's List.

 

I should be okay with being short changed because you think it makes for a good story? I should sit on the bench and watch the privileged kids have fun because that's how life is? That attitude really ticks me off. I'm sitting here locked out of something I really want to enjoy and I should be cool with that because you think it creates a nuanced story? I'm sorry but no! I'm not cool with it!

 

I'm not going to be told I should be happy with my sad story of unrequited love while the other side gets to have their happy love story, just because while she can find it in her heart to love a human, twilek, cyborg, or even sith, making her able to love a woman at the same time as someone else's Kira loves a man is so "unrealistic".

 

If Kira wasn't able to be romanced at all, that'd be one thing. But I'm sorry, it's just not cool to sit there and know that if I'd made the "right" gender choice at character creation, I'd be enjoying the content I want to enjoy right now. That turns it into a really crappy choice, where no matter what I pick I'm not happy.

 

I'm invested in my characters, not coolly detached. That's the way I like it. That's what I get enjoyment out of. I'm vicariously living through some really cool characters, and I don't want to be held back in the same way I am in real life. "Sorry, she just isn't into you," is not fun and I don't appreciate you using the realism of sexuality as a way to bar me from enjoying what I want to enjoy.

 

Especially because your arguments are ignorant and baseless. There is no reason why it's bad story telling. That's really, really, really narrow minded. "Kira isn't gay, that's just the way it is!" Well it doesn't have to be the way it is. There's no good reason that has to be the way it is! She can be gay in my game and straight in yours, there is no compromise to our individual stories! Just like in your game the Jedi Knight might be a male Twi'lek and in mine she might be a female human, and in neither is the story compromised by that! The entire argument against it just makes no sense.

 

I'm sick of it! I try to be reasonable and nice. I try to spell everything out, explain the shortcomings of these arguments against fun on the basis of realism. But some people just don't get it. Well maybe this will get through. Maybe letting you see some of the passion I have for the subject will make you understand that it's more than just cold reason.

 

It matters! Yea, it's just a game, but story is a huge part of my life. I'm a writer. I listen to 5 to 10 books a month. I may have never climbed Everest, but I was there with Luke Skywalker when he made the trench run. This is where I find joy, and I won't be told that's not valid. So yea, it matters to me.

 

I could walk away from this story, there are hundreds of others just waiting for me. Even though Star Wars is a big part of my life, having been a creative inspiration from childhood... Even though I've been looking forward to this game for years.. Even though BioWare's methods of story telling, letting me put my hands in the creative muck and shape the story, is extremely appealing...

 

Even though all those things are true, I could walk away from it and take my disappointment and move on. But I've been strung along with promises. Besides, I don't want to walk away, I love this game and this story and the promise it offers just beyond the bend.

 

I'm not mad at BioWare, I'm disappointed. I'm mad at the people here trying to invalidate what I want to enjoy because they don't think it makes good story telling. People trying to tell me that I should be just as happy getting the opposite of what I enjoy just because they think it's more realistic. That's what makes me mad.

 

Whatever ends up happening with this game, fine. Life moves on. But don't sit there and try to tell me that I'm being unreasonable and that I should be fine with it. I'm not fine with it, and my reasons are perfectly valid.

Like you want to invalidate what other people enjoy because they think it makes better storytelling?

Like how the exclusion of SGR was called unrealistic by some, and those same people go around and say they don't care for it being realistic?

You mean like how it's been said to those who were against SGR that their own reasons weren't perfectly valid?

And I agree, when you make a character and find you can't romance the companion you want, a bit of a let down. The pining away aspect for me is just my way of continuing on with the game. Why? Because it's a game. If I don't like the games mechanics and aesthetics, the story isn't going to keep me around. The stories in TOR aren't these great works of fiction. There are other MMOs with just as good stories. The only difference between them and TOR is TOR has 8 of them (that will all converge to 1 so it becomes kinda pointless now) and TOR (to my knowledge anyways) put romancing of companions into the game.

On that note, I have to say, getting my smuggler up to level 47, I don't see the appeal of Corso! Gaaaah. He's not getting romanced at all. Between Andronikus, Torian, Quinn, and Corso...he's last!

Though, I think that's why while I may be for SGRs, I'm also not the OMGWTFCANTPLAYWITHOUTIT type. Saddly, a lot of the romances are just plain forgettable, and if not forgettable they just...end. Why I think playing for the game for the romances is the worst idea.

Like you want to invalidate what other people enjoy because they think it makes better storytelling?

Except that it doesn't invalidate...anything, given that it's completely optional. The only argument is essentially, "The fact that other people can make story choices that I wouldn't totally ruins my experience!" which isn't an argument at all.

Like how the exclusion of SGR was called unrealistic by some, and those same people go around and say they don't care for it being realistic?

Homosexuals exist in real life, across all cultures and countries. So the idea that it is completely absent from the Star Wars Universe is highly unrealistic. Unless I missed a dialogue in game where an NPC says that they're totally straight, or the developers released a comprehensive list of the sexual orientations of the characters, arguments about the 'realism' of any particular romance in game are purely subjective.

You mean like how it's been said to those who were against SGR that their own reasons weren't perfectly valid?

The only 'reasons' for opposing SGR are "I don't like it, and even though I never have to see or participate in it, I don't think other players should be able to do it because I don't like it.".

This is manifestly less valid than, "I should be able to enjoy the same aspects of the game available to other players that suit my interests."

So pining away because it’s better story-telling applies only to SGRs, eh? Or let’s say ‘mostly to SGRs’, before someone jumps in with the sophistry that they can’t romance HK-51 or Khem Val.

So people who are against SGRs because they think there’s something ‘wrong/sick/icky/etc’ with SGRs have perfectly valid reasons, eh? And we never did hear any argument against SGRs that didn’t ultimately boil down to ‘there’s something wrong/sick/icky/etc about SGRs’.

So when people said that gays weren’t in SW and therefore they shouldn’t be in SWTOR, and we argued against that -- we now have to accept a continuous stream of ‘put up with it because that’s realistic’ drivel about SGRs… in a fantasy game?

That’s BS.

I’m with you, Slaign ! Your post was brilliant.

RL is irrelevant to both arguments.

Your point? I’m saying that a lot of the argument for SGR was based on “realism”, yet as soon as someone says something about taking it a step further, suddenly these same people are saying that realism is irrelevant?

<snip>

I’m going to come back to you in a separate post. I started writing up a response until I started thinking about a couple things… I want to rethink my response while writing to others.

But then how is that fair the artist who envisioned that character to be not be bi. Hell take it even further and say that there is only same sex flirts for certain NPCs, but to make EVERY NPC that is flirtable bi is not fair, not to the artist or the community. It's not logical, and not realistic. You can say this is Star Wars and none of it is real, but there is a sense of realism when it comes to the personalities of the NPCs in the game. The artists, designers, and writers have a vision to create, and it is THEIR vision.

 

If you want that kind of choice and creative, go play Second Life!

Umm… I think you’re replying to the wrong person? Or thought I was discussing the other side of it?

<snip>

Again, I’ll come back to you (it’ll be nice… I promise).

Don't think so. The poster's post was deleted though, sooo, I could be mistaken, but I believe it was someone else.

Oh, ok. It’s just you were quoting someone who had replied to me, then in the same post said “To the other poster”, so I assumed that was me. Apologies.

So when people said that gays weren’t in SW and therefore they shouldn’t be in SWTOR, and we argued against that -- we now have to accept a continuous stream of ‘put up with it because that’s realistic’ drivel about SGRs… in a fantasy game?

And this is where I’m really left scratching my head. To get SGRs in, you (people in general) argue it’s realistic. But then immediately you go on about it being a “fantasy game” as soon as someone wants to take the realism a step further. Make up your minds!

Please note all: I am for SGRs being in. I have never once said that it has no place in this game, or that it can be in but I don’t want to so it, etc. I don’t care if I’m playing a straight character and get an SGR flirt option off from someone… as a straight character, (s)he just simply would not make that choice.

I’m going to say some things in my next post that will hopefully clarify a bit where I’m coming from (simply because it will be in direct reply to Slaign). It may be a bit… I’m at work and want to put a lot of thought into this.

Slaign you are my hero.

You've laid out a handful of excellent arguments for herosexuality that no one will be able to rebut, though they will try XD. They need to show why it's okay to be lax on 'realism' and allow for herosexualism with every other attribute besides gender (cuz that's the only restriction now in place)....haven't seen anyone do this yet.

Your point? I’m saying that a lot of the argument for SGR was based on “realism”, yet as soon as someone says something about taking it a step further, suddenly these same people are saying that realism is irrelevant?

Not for me...my argument for inclusion is based on 'fun' (I pretty much feel the exact same as Slaign on the issue). I don't give a flying hoot about 'realism' in fantasy games/story/

So...I'm not sure what your point is. Perhaps you saw someone argue from the point of 'realism' and are generalizing? First, not everyone who wants SGRAs added supports 'herosexuality'. Second, lets say, yeah, there are some posters being hypocritical about 'realism'...that doesn't discredit the things Slaign and others have said and doesn't undermine their arguments.

So pining away because it’s better story-telling applies only to SGRs, eh?

But of course, OGRs get their pick of the romance option litter and that totally makes a lot of sense and stuff.

Slaign, for the sake of putting it out there, to the first of your two posts, I was originally going to reply with this:

Slaign, I am sorry… but it really sounds to me like you may need to re-evaluate some things if you seriously cannot play this game (or certain characters) without romancing someone, let alone certain someones.

But as I thought about it, I realized something. For starters, I’m planning on running every class story. The other day I created all the characters that I’m going to run, including 4 Imps. Now, while on some level I do have a “cool detachment” from things, I can say with all honesty, I am going to have a hard time playing those Imp characters. Why? Because I do actually make an emotional connection with my characters and as such have a hard time “pretending” to be evil. I actually do have an emotional response to that. Watching the intro movie for the Empire does actually make me sad and I know I will run into several situations while playing my chars that I’ll go “But I don’t want to do that!” even though I have to. While RPing evil is different from RPing romance, it’s also the same. On that note, I do understand where you are coming from.

And of course, I’ll be honest... I have very little desire to RP a romance. That opens wounds for me, thus something I wish to steer clear of. But please note, it’s not the reason behind my wanting things the way I’m arguing for. It’s the reason why I’m able to have the “cool detachment”.

-----------------------------

Now, allow me to better define where I’m coming from, which will require going into a topic I previously considered off-topic, but I feel is important for my position.

(I’m only quoting the first part of your post for space reasons, not because it’s the only part I’m replying to)

It all boils down to this very basic failure to comprehend. They aren't necessarily bi! They might be, but it's just as feasible that, in your story they are gay, or straight, or whatever works for your story. What they do in Joe Schmoe's story has no bearing on who they are in yours.

The point that you make, the fact that it is “your story” (in reference to the individual players) is actually a big point of contention for me with this game’s story mechanics. Everyone is playing their own personal story, in which they are the “hero” and the whole story revolves around them… except that we’re playing in an MMO? That at certain points you have to group up with others to complete certain content? Of which some of these people are your alternate universe twins? Huh??

IMHO, they did a bad job at this for it being an MMO. It really has the feeling to me of a single player game that has multiple story arcs for you to play… that they happened to make into an MMO.

Because of this, and because of the following point, I am actually willing to concede to Companions being herosexual. After all, in all fairness, many of the classes do not have enough companions that could be romancable for them to open up all possibilities.

However, all content outside of the player class story arc is really shared content. This should not be lumped into the it’s “your story” pile as then we are further taking a SP orientated MMO (story wise) and making it even more so. (The point of an MMO shouldn’t be just for the chat channel….) I honestly believe that the shared content area should be pre-set for each NPC: OGR, SGR, or BGR. Why? Because this is where the individual stories merge, and quite frankly should (definitely) not be “your story”. As such, not everyone is going to straight, gay, or bi. But opportunities should be equally spread for all fairness.

One thing to note about the “your story” thing (and again, this is in reference to all individual players, not a comment aimed at you, Slaign), if you are playing a game for the story and to make it into (truly) “your story”, then you should not be looking at MMOs. Those are what Single Player games should be about. MMOs should be about an overarching story line, and “our” role in it.

I hope this helps clarify a few things about my stance on the issue.

There's a reason why SGR is in Mass Effect and rated M and why there's no SGR in SWTOR and it's rated T. The sooner this fact is realized, the sooner something (one way or the other) will be resolved.

This is patently untrue. Someone better at google than I am posted the ESRB answer to the above quote in the last iteration of this thread.

Not for me...my argument for inclusion is based on 'fun' (I pretty much feel the exact same as Slaign on the issue). I don't give a flying hoot about 'realism' in fantasy games/story/

 

So...I'm not sure what your point is. Perhaps you saw someone argue from the point of 'realism' and are generalizing? First, not everyone who wants SGRAs added supports 'herosexuality'. Second, lets say, yeah, there are some posters being hypocritical about 'realism'...that doesn't discredit the things Slaign and others have said and doesn't undermine their arguments.

Please understand, when I make a post, it is directly to the person I am replying to unless otherwise stated (I try to point out when I am generalizing, etc). Also, I never said that "everyone who wants SGRAs" are arguing this way or another. I merely said that those who were arguing for it and using realism as their basis.

As such, none of the post you quoted was directed at Slaign. Different people make different arguments for the same thing. As such, I make counter-arguments that are tailored specifically back at them if I can.