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Antagonising Companions: An Interesting and Admirable Spin


Ystig

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When I undertook playing my light side Sith Warrior, I couldn't help appreciating (though I did not use, as my character was going in the opposite direction) the various options for actively antagonising Vette as a companion.

 

I'm curious: are there other companions which are interesting not just as "best friend forever" life partners, but as unfriendly allies in a problematic world which sometimes brings together the wrong people for the wrong reasons? It's something one seldom sees in RPGs.

 

The idea that the PC should always be kowtowing to those who fall in with him/her - that all characters will always seek the affection/friendship of every crewmate that happens to end up on their ship - it clearly doesn't jive with an even slightly realistic approach to characterisation.

 

So if we aren't just saying what our companions want us to say, all the time, it's great to have antagonisms and unpleasantries which are actually developed. From the bits of Dark Side I saw along my light side path, I get the impression the Sith Warrior storyline gave that approach some attention. Do other storylines?

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Playing my light side Jedi knight, there wasn't a lot of controversy among my companions (as expected), except for Lord scourge, which clearly despised my light side actions during crew gatherings on the ship, before important class story fights. I was suprised that once I got something like -760 affection with just one convestation option. You have given me motivation to build his affection, I'm interested where his companion story will go.
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Playing my light side Jedi knight, there wasn't a lot of controversy among my companions (as expected), except for Lord scourge, which clearly despised my light side actions during crew gatherings on the ship, before important class story fights. I was suprised that once I got something like -760 affection with just one convestation option. You have given me motivation to build his affection, I'm interested where his companion story will go.

Lord Scourge is a scum that deserved to die for his actions - althou I do not mind it to be a fanservice death type so girls gonna enjoy their over emotional disturbances, for example Scourge protecting Knight and dying. Of course I would like to see him trying to kill that rot of tython but chances are rather slim.

 

for a Sith Warrior I do not exactly see a future painted with conflicts, Vette will sometimes say something about me obliterating kindergardens and Quinn gonna frown upon my dirty actions, but nothing big coming there - unless they gonna allow me to execute Quinn then its gonna be all tasty and wonderful

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I'm curious: are there other companions which are interesting not just as "best friend forever" life partners, but as unfriendly allies in a problematic world which sometimes brings together the wrong people for the wrong reasons? It's something one seldom sees in RPGs.

I had a mostly LS JK and the conversations with Scourge were just interesting. It was possible to gain respect, but he would challenge your ideas on things, point out hypocrisy, it was fun.

 

Kaliyo for the IA likes being contrary just for being contrary's sake, so you can expect conflict there, especially if you're at all LS or lawful.

 

SCORPIO spoilers

Killer robot who intends to kill your character asap (at least for awhile).

 

 

Zenith, in the JC crew, does things pretty much his own way and trust is very very slow to build up. He has a very ruthless mindset, which, depending on your character, can be in conflict. I found him very interesting.

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There's a series of YouTube videos out there of a (female) smuggler who kept flirting with Corso but absolutely refused any sort of relationship. It's... interesting. Video maker calls him stalker-like, and I can see her point, but I'm a Corso-lover so I just feel sorry for him getting turned down again and again.

 

Personally I like happy endings. But I just might do this with my Guss Tuno, Skadge, Gault, etc. (My least favorites.)

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I should really post a movie series: Kaliyo, or How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Just Dis Companions. Complete with nuclear annihilation at the end :p

 

Kidding, I liked her half the time. But our romance was incredibly antagonistic as she tried to get a rise out of me and I refused to tolerate her games. Laughed in her face when she brought up love. Stuff like that. It was way more fun than playing a straightforward romance would've been.

 

I've enjoyed my second Warrior playthrough, treating Quinn as a tool of questionable worth. He gets so sad when I question his backstory claims and tell him he'd better pull his weight.

 

Lord Scourge, I was respectful while disagreeing on every possible philosophical point. I got a lot of -768s with him when decisions came up and I loved every minute of it.

 

Tanno Vik taught me that "That goes against everything we stand for, Vik" is actually a Trooper stock line that can come up multiple times.

 

Doctor Lokin liked it when I gave him a hard time. I hated recruiting him, I don't trust him, I called him on his BS at every opportunity, and...he lapped it up, actually. That was an interesting dynamic.

 

The antagonistic relationship very slightly slows conversation progression...Scourge in particular is tough because his conversation losses are so huge...but I find it's worth it. So worth it.

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It would be a lot more worth it if they'd imported the KotOR II or DA2 system instead. As it stands now, disapproval is absolutely negative period. You never want it, it's actively detrimental to anything you could ever possibly do. It hurts your crafting, it prevents you from picking up the +10 presence perks, and, most importantly, it chokes roleplaying. Piss off a companion and you don't get to talk to them. This is the absolute opposite of good game design; it punishes you for playing a relationship in-character by removing the ability to continue to explore that relationship.

 

If conversations unlocked at negative approval intervals as they do in KotOR II or DA2, perhaps even with a few lines changed here and there to reflect the difference in affection vs antagonistic respect, it would be a much richer system, and I wouldn't have completely abandoned any sense of immersion or RP honesty by repeatedly selecting douchebaggy lines on Belsavis and Ilum dalies just to get Scourge to talk to me or have to choose between Elara being a mute puppet for fifty levels or else inexplicably adoring my verbally abusive darkside Trooper as an exemplar of the Republic and loyal friend because I smothered her in gifts.

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It would be a lot more worth it if they'd imported the KotOR II or DA2 system instead. As it stands now, disapproval is absolutely negative period. You never want it, it's actively detrimental to anything you could ever possibly do. It hurts your crafting, it prevents you from picking up the +10 presence perks, and, most importantly, it chokes roleplaying. Piss off a companion and you don't get to talk to them. This is the absolute opposite of good game design; it punishes you for playing a relationship in-character by removing the ability to continue to explore that relationship.

 

If conversations unlocked at negative approval intervals as they do in KotOR II or DA2, perhaps even with a few lines changed here and there to reflect the difference in affection vs antagonistic respect, it would be a much richer system, and I wouldn't have completely abandoned any sense of immersion or RP honesty by repeatedly selecting douchebaggy lines on Belsavis and Ilum dalies just to get Scourge to talk to me or have to choose between Elara being a mute puppet for fifty levels or else inexplicably adoring my verbally abusive darkside Trooper as an exemplar of the Republic and loyal friend because I smothered her in gifts.

 

Agreed, a viable positive/negative influence path would be interesting and rewarding.

 

On the other hand, some of these companion recruitments are forced enough already; shoving Ashara onto my ship and then giving me a maximum antagonism meter would just be miserable. With the current one-directional scale, at least one of us (i.e. her) thinks that we have some kind of relationship/reason to stick around by the end of the conversation line. DA2 suffered badly from this effect: I loved its affection/rivalry scale but hated that there was no reason whatsoever for most companions to not just stab you in the face and walk away at max rivalry.

 

There are ways around this: In a world-saving scenario you can justify either positive or "I hate you but we have to work together" companion relationships, and I would love to see both developed as viable paths. Likewise if there's blackmail/usefulness. Doctor Lokin is with me because he blackmailed his way onto the ship for his own reasons; in-character I hate that he's there but out of character I love, love, love that they wrote it. It makes it make sense for him to stay even though my character dislikes him.

 

As it is I'm reduced to RPing the hell out of conversations because that's what I want my character to do, then pumping companion gifts to cancel the fact that by any rational measure my companions should hate me. Don't get me wrong, it's good that the gifts are there from a mechanics perspective, but it is there in part to compensate for the disappointing fact that there is only one conversation line.

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  • 1 year later...
It would be a lot more worth it if they'd imported the KotOR II or DA2 system instead. As it stands now, disapproval is absolutely negative period. You never want it, it's actively detrimental to anything you could ever possibly do. It hurts your crafting, it prevents you from picking up the +10 presence perks, and, most importantly, it chokes roleplaying. Piss off a companion and you don't get to talk to them. This is the absolute opposite of good game design; it punishes you for playing a relationship in-character by removing the ability to continue to explore that relationship.

 

If conversations unlocked at negative approval intervals as they do in KotOR II or DA2, perhaps even with a few lines changed here and there to reflect the difference in affection vs antagonistic respect, it would be a much richer system, and I wouldn't have completely abandoned any sense of immersion or RP honesty by repeatedly selecting douchebaggy lines on Belsavis and Ilum dalies just to get Scourge to talk to me or have to choose between Elara being a mute puppet for fifty levels or else inexplicably adoring my verbally abusive darkside Trooper as an exemplar of the Republic and loyal friend because I smothered her in gifts.

 

If memory serves, KOTOR II did punish you for playing your character a certain way. If you got significantly more influence with Visas then the Handmaiden, the Handmaiden would refuse to talk to you for the rest of the game, which makes her impossible to train as a Jedi.

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If memory serves, KOTOR II did punish you for playing your character a certain way. If you got significantly more influence with Visas then the Handmaiden, the Handmaiden would refuse to talk to you for the rest of the game, which makes her impossible to train as a Jedi.

 

Well that game was riddled with bugs so I doubt it was intentional, could also be they just overlooked it.

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Well that game was riddled with bugs so I doubt it was intentional, could also be they just overlooked it.

 

I assure you it was completely intentional, she yells at you for being corrupted by the "Sith", and, from that point on, any attempts to talk to her are met with "I have nothing to say to you." or something to that effect. Interestingly, doing this is the only way to unlock the Visas romance. A similar situation is present in Mass Effect 2, having casual sex with Jac at the beginning of her story, instead of getting to know her, will lead to her telling you to "F**k off" if you attempt to talk to her after that point.

 

On a side note, KOTOR 2, even with all it's flaws, is still I wonderful game. I discover something new every time I play.

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I assure you it was completely intentional, she yells at you for being corrupted by the "Sith", and, from that point on, any attempts to talk to her are met with "I have nothing to say to you." or something to that effect. Interestingly, doing this is the only way to unlock the Visas romance. A similar situation is present in Mass Effect 2, having casual sex with Jac at the beginning of her story, instead of getting to know her, will lead to her telling you to "F**k off" if you attempt to talk to her after that point.

 

On a side note, KOTOR 2, even with all it's flaws, is still I wonderful game. I discover something new every time I play.

 

So if you train her into a jedi first, can you still romance Visas afterwards?

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So if you train her into a jedi first, can you still romance Visas afterwards?

 

I don't know, the only time I've ever gotten this conversation, it was early in the game, about half way through the second planet I went to after Telos. However, if I had to guess, I'd say probably not. To unlock this coninversation, you need significantly higher influence with Visas then Handmaiden, and training Handmaiden as a Jedi involves gaining significant influence with her.

 

That being said, it's not like you need to train Handmaiden as a Jedi, you have plenty of other companions who can be trained in the force. People say that Jedi Handmaiden is the strongest party member in the game, but, personally, I say that honor goes to Hanharr.

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I don't know, the only time I've ever gotten this conversation, it was early in the game, about half way through the second planet I went to after Telos. However, if I had to guess, I'd say probably not. To unlock this coninversation, you need significantly higher influence with Visas then Handmaiden, and training Handmaiden as a Jedi involves gaining significant influence with her.

 

That being said, it's not like you need to train Handmaiden as a Jedi, you have plenty of other companions who can be trained in the force. People say that Jedi Handmaiden is the strongest party member in the game, but, personally, I say that honor goes to Hanharr.

 

I love that they made the Wookiee a psycho thug instead of the usual gentle giant. No Sith lord in impractical and evil-looking armor could be half as terrifying as a psychotic Wookiee out for your blood.

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Well, what you do is save up your credits and buy level 5 companion gifts off of the GTN. Even if you earn hundreds of negative affection points with Scourge, you can still max out his affection by giving him the gifts. This works for ALL companions. You don't have to suffer the consequences of negative affection when you can use this method to max it out.
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I love that they made the Wookiee a psycho thug instead of the usual gentle giant. No Sith lord in impractical and evil-looking armor could be half as terrifying as a psychotic Wookiee out for your blood.

 

He actually had a pretty interesting backstory too, and, best of all, you could max out his influence in one conversation without ever leaving the ship.

 

KOTOR 1 also punished players for playing a certain way, since going full on dark side involves killing Juhani, who is one of the most useful companions in the game, and you get no replacment for her.

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Antagonizing Aric Jorgan as a Trooper is incredibly fun, especially during the various hearings with Senators. You can get him all riled up. If I remember correctly there were plenty of opportunities throughout the whole storyline and I loved every minute of it :)

 

http://i.imgur.com/rjeCYso.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/CyU6ZWb.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/Sg2Qpe8.jpg

 

My Trooper provoked him at every opportunity, but apparently there was some unspoken respect because he later promoted him to Lieutenant. Elara Dorne was too "by the books" and wasn't practical like Jorgan was.

 

Oh, I did also manage to get -422 affection with Kira. Or something like that: http://i.imgur.com/hkInt.jpg

Edited by Jenzali
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I'm curious: are there other companions which are interesting not just as "best friend forever" life partners, but as unfriendly allies in a problematic world which sometimes brings together the wrong people for the wrong reasons? It's something one seldom sees in RPGs.

 

I'm in the process of replaying each of the class stories; first time around, I couldn't help but generally gain approval from all the Companions, so, second time around, there are several I'm enjoying being antagonistic to.

 

 

  • Doc - My female JK romanced him (although not completely blind to his faults), but in 'revenge', I played my male JK as thinking Doc is a self-absorbed a-hole and takes every opportunity to smack down his egotism. There are some really fun dialogue choices along the way if you go that route.
  • Jorgan - Someone mentioned him already, but throwing him under the bus early on was pretty fun (after, again, Romancing him first time through).
  • Tharan Cedrax - Second f!Consular slept with him, got jilted, and now pretty much slams Holliday every opportunity she gets, which Tharan hates. She refuses to support his efforts to make Holliday into a real person.
  • Tanno Vik - My lighter than light Trooper refuses every attempt for Vik to use him to make a buck
  • Lokhin, Vector, & Kaliyo - My xenophobic human Agent thinks Lokhin being part-rakghoul and Vector being a Joiner is gross. It's made for an interesting relationship with both of them, since he rejects a very large part of what they are, in the process. Likewise, he refused to play along with her Chapter 3 companion quest, shutting her down entirely (given what I already knew happened during it after my first run through).
  • Ashara - There's been a ton of eInk spilled about Ashara, but my DS Inquisitor tells her off every time she goes on about allying with the Jedi (even rejecting her offer to teach his kids despite the fact he was in a Romance with her, haha).
  • Quinn - Looking forward to a Warrior playthrough shutting him down hard, given what happens later.

 

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