First of all, I want to say that unlike many people on the forums, I feel that PvP is relatively balanced. I do agree that certain advanced classes are a little weaker than others, but in general I feel like this is within an exceptable margin of error. After all, it wasn't that long ago when this forum was filled with complains of how tracer missle/grav round spam was so easy and strong.

 

I play a variety of different classes and specs on my characters, but one stands above (or perhaps "below") the rest in terms of how it fairs compared to other trees with the same role. I'm talking, of course, about the Shield-Specialist Vanguard/Shield-Tech Powertech trees and how they fair at PvP tanking. Recent, new information has been very disappointing for me and other shield-specialist vanguards in my guild because it has shown that Bioware has no plans in the foreseeable future to address the severe survivability and utility imbalance which this tree faces in PvP when compared to the other tanking trees.

 

It is clear to me that most Vanguard/Powertech players on the forums (and ranked PvP teams) agree with this conclusion:

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=576486

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=573070

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=545356

However, most non-Vanguards/Powertech players on the forums seem to be screaming for nerfs because they mostly see the Assault-Specialist/Pyrotech tree in PvP (as most Vanguard/Powertech players have respecced to this tree by now). The problem is that I rolled my Vanguard character to be a tank and do not feel that I should be forced to reroll to be a viable tank in PvP.

 

What Bioware does not seem to understand is that additional DPS talents and abilities are not going to solve the problem with this tree (unless it is a huge boost which brings the tree to the point where it is as strong as DPS spec, but that seems unbalancing and very unlikely). What is the problem then exactly? Let's compare activated survivability abilities between the tanking classes/trees. Vanguards/Powetechs have 3:

• Reactive Shield/Energy Shield - is absolutely fine and comparable to the other classes survivability abilities. It has advantages and disadvantages vs Saber Ward (lower cooldown but not as good melee & ranged damage reduction) and Deflection (useful vs force & tech but not as strong vs melee & ranged).
  
• Adrenaline Rush/Kolto Overload - is by far the worse 3 minute cooldown in the game (2 minutes with the Shield talent admittedly). For such a long cooldown to provide less healing than a medpack is very poor. Additionally, the healing is slow so it won't keep you alive significantly longer if you use it when you are low on health like a health pack would, and risks overhealing if you use it when you are too high. I would say it is the worse survivability ability in the game if not for...
  
• Smoke Grenade/Oil Slick - terrible in PvP for the simple fact that most classes use primarily force & tech attacks. Additionally, it is easily countered by Illegal Mods/Target Acquired by the Gunslinger/Sniper (which is one of the few classes which might actually care about it) and it is the only activated defensive ability which is cleanse-able. Even if the enemy uses melee/ranged attack and straight up ignores it, it is so weak that the chance of them getting a string of attacks to connect is still very high. Look at Resilience/Force Shroud (also a 1 minute cooldown); it is pretty much the same thing except it is 100% instead of 20%, force & tech instead of melee & ranged, provides stun/mez immunity, and removes all debuffs. The only upside which Smoke Grenade/Oil Slick has over it is how long it lasts.
  

It is clear that Tanking Vanguard/Powertechs have less and weaker activated defensive abilities than Tanking Shadows/Assasins and Guardians/Juggernauts.

 

Let's look at passive mitigation next. This is touted as the big advantage that tanking Vanguards/Powertechs have over the other tanking trees/classes, so let's compare:

• Vanguard/Powertechs have slightly stronger armor than Guardians/Juggernauts (only because of their talents; they both wear heavy armor), and much stronger armor than Shadows/Assassins. I concede that this is an advantage. However this advantage is lessened significantly when % armor penetration abilities (which most classes can get in one or more of their trees) come into play and levels the playing field between the classes. Before someone argues against this, think of how the most extreme case (100% armor penetration provided by Precision Strike/Gore) would work to best understand.
  
• Vanguards/Powertechs and Guardians/Juggernauts have less internal & elemental damage reduction and health than Shadows/Assassins. This is a slight advantage for Shadows/Assassins. Less attacks use internal & elemental damage than those that can be mitigated by armor (kinetic & energy), but there is also no "internal & elemental penetration" so this advantage is more static.
  

Conclusion: Tanking Vanguard/Powertechs have only a slight advantage in passive mitigation, because armor penetration is percentage-based and some attacks go through armor.

 

Finally, how do the tanks stack up in utility?

• All 3 tanks have 2 of the following: A push, a pull, and a leap. They all have advantages and disavantages. Since this is very subjective, I'll call it a wash.
  
• Stun/mez options are also very subjective. Vanguards/Powertechs have the least (Cyro Grenade and Neural Surge) and they are short but both are stuns and there are times when the AOE stun is very strong. Shadows/Assassins have the most (Force Stun, Spinning Kick, Mind Maze, and Force Lift) but some are situational. Tank Guardians/Juggernauts are in the middle of the road with number and usability (Hilt Strike, Force Stasis, and Awe). Though I personally believe that Vanguards/Powertechs and Shadows/Assasins are at a disadvantage compared Guardians/Juggernauts, I'll call this a wash.
  
• Shield Vanguards/Powertechs have the worst slow option. Their only choice is the Neural Overload talent. This talent is a single target proc and lasts way too short (2 secs) to be useful. Both Shadows/Assassins and Guardians/Juggernauts have much better options.
  
• Other utility: Vanguards/Powertechs have little to no other utility (Stealth Scan I guess but it is rarely useful), whereas Shadows/Assassins have stealth (which is great for node guarding, node attacking, surprising enemies, etc.) and Guardians/Juggernauts have Sunder Armor (increases damage for allies) and Force Leap/Intercede (extra mobility, and reduces damage to target which is a Guardian-only way to get extra protection score).
  

It is clear that the lack of a good slow and "other utility" hurts Vanguards/Powertechs compared to other tanks.

 

So what do I recommend to fix the issue? Here are a couple suggestions:

• Make Smoke Grenade/Oil Slick work on force & tech as well as melee & ranged, and award protection score for damage it prevents to others. It would still not be great, but it would atleast feel useful in PvP. I feel like this is the easiest, most non-invasive change which would help balance this tree compared to the other tanking trees, and would not unbalance PvE.
  
• Alternatively, you could make Smoke Grenade/Oil Slick remove all debuffs on the Vanguard/Powertech.
  
• Give Vanguards/Powertechs more utility which the other tank classes cannot do so ranked teams have a reason to bring them.
  

 

Bioware, I'm not asking for the world here. All I want is you to bring the Shield-Specialist Vanguard/Shield-Tech Powertech more inline with the other PvP tanks.

Well said.

 

To be honest I think BW needs to look at tanking in PVP period. Granted with a really good healer a good healer/tank combo is ridiculously good to kill, but that makes solo queuing with either a losing proposition.

 

Good changes I think you're suggesting. Vanguards could definitely use another tank specific DCD, and this would help BW avoid the massive rebalancing that fixing tanking in PVP would result in.

I would be happy if they just made Ironfist viable again, great post though. Our PT tanks need some love, believe it or not not ALL of us enjoy playing 4 button Pyro :\ Edited February 9, 2013 by ARagingNoob

Agree.

the suggestion about oil slick for force & tech attacks is an excellent barometer question. as the op says, it will not have any effect whatsoever on pve, AND PT/VG tanks are the rarest in the game by far, so if BW has any concern whatsoever for pvp/balance/player concerns, I think they'd at least respond to such a suggestion...if for nothing else, at least to explain why they WOULDN'T implement such a thing.

Yeah, Iron Fist was so much fun! I wish they'd make that viable again.

 

I might even have to dust off my PyroPT and respec to good ol' huttballin' spec.

I kinda miss carolina parakeet

Well said, I agree with the OP. It really does deserve a "Dev" reply.

/signed

Pretty much everything that the OP said. I really wanted to pvp tank with my powertech, and I did in the lowbie bracket, but when I switched to Advanced Prototype, I felt a LOT more useful. Let that sink in a little. AP is not generally considered viable for pvp, but that said, it is a lot stronger than Shield Specialist. Please, BW, any buff for PT/Vanguard tanks!

 

/signed

I'm in agreement, both non-Pyro trees of the vanguard/PT are incredibly underpowered and need some love.

 

Even in PVE the tank vanguards seem to fall short compared to the other two tanking classes...

 

Also can you restrict the use of taunts (especially AoE taunts) to the respective tanking stance/cell? It makes no sense that DPS classes can divert damage better than tanks can by taunting and killing off the marauding opponents fast enough to annul their damage to teammates. It would promote more actual tanking in PVP which we could certainly use.

I would be happy if they just made Ironfist viable again, great post though. Our PT tanks need some love, believe it or not not ALL of us enjoy playing 4 button Pyro :\

 

Pretty much this. Fully approve.

/signed

Make that thread a sticky .

 

Alternative would be to make our shields work on all types of damage, but with its effectiveness greatly reduced. Seeing how many many talents increase our chance to block as well as absorbtion, tree will never be viable in pvp if the shield is useless there.

 

And I'd go step further, and restrict taunting not only to tanking stance but also to a tanking offhand

Make that thread a sticky .

 

Alternative would be to make our shields work on all types of damage, but with its effectiveness greatly reduced. Seeing how many many talents increase our chance to block as well as absorbtion, tree will never be viable in pvp if the shield is useless there.

 

And I'd go step further, and restrict taunting not only to tanking stance but also to a tanking offhand

 

just make the taunts for non-tanks weaker like only 10% damage reduction

Good thread, I miss 'Storm and Stab' build. Not the best, but the laugh factor of leaping like a Knight and bashing/slashing reds to death was priceless.

Make that thread a sticky .

 

Alternative would be to make our shields work on all types of damage, but with its effectiveness greatly reduced. Seeing how many many talents increase our chance to block as well as absorbtion, tree will never be viable in pvp if the shield is useless there.

 

My thought exactly, until using a shield in pvp is viable, tanks (besides juggs for huttball maybe) will be in short supply for pvp.

Ive been a Vanguard tank for almost 1 year didnt even have the dps gear till now i give up i just respected to assault and threw away my tank gear.