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Premades are ruining non-ranked warzones


Monoth

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PvP is dead on my server, because most of the Imps do pre-made and the Reps don't. Reps tend to PVE. The Reps basically don't PvP at all now as it's boring getting facerolled. And those that like to be carried, re-rolled as Sith. It's all Imp vs Imp nowadays. Quite dull.

 

Bravo Bioware! Your Imperial favoritism kill your own game!

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Bravo Bioware! Your Imperial favoritism kill your own game!

 

There's no difference between Imperial and Republic PvP - heck back on Ajunta Pall, most PvP was Republic victories, not Imperial. All that seems to have happened her is that many of the skilled players rolled Imperial and the lesser PvPers followed suit as this helped them get their weekly done faster.

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lol only thing killing regular warzones are the masses of bads.

 

lets all throw ourselves time after time against the same node then complain the whole time that everyone else sucks lol, pvp in this game is hit or miss...usually with those 2-3 players that are smart about it and know how to flank and draw the enemy team to another node then recap instead of wave after wave smashing up against a set up defence

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Queuing for a SOLO warzone should be what the name implies.

 

Random people thrown together on teams in similar gear. Is the WZ not sophisticated enough to match up similar players with similar gear and abilities?

 

I don't think they are that is why there are threads (endless) describing how someone is on a server where established teams are reaping the WZ comms while the others are basically locked out from getting any.

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Queuing for a SOLO warzone should be what the name implies.

 

Random people thrown together on teams in similar gear. Is the WZ not sophisticated enough to match up similar players with similar gear and abilities?

 

I don't think they are that is why there are threads (endless) describing how someone is on a server where established teams are reaping the WZ comms while the others are basically locked out from getting any.

 

Once more, please answer what is stopping those "random" players from grouping up themselves?

 

Why discourage team play in a team centric PvP content? Frankly, I advice looking up Playing to Win by Sirlin before anyone argues against people taking advantage of how the game is played.

 

It's really no different then using a WZ pickup or Medpaks/Stims. Good players use them, bad players whine that good players are cheap/cheating.

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Queuing for a SOLO warzone should be what the name implies.

 

Random people thrown together on teams in similar gear. Is the WZ not sophisticated enough to match up similar players with similar gear and abilities?

 

I don't think they are that is why there are threads (endless) describing how someone is on a server where established teams are reaping the WZ comms while the others are basically locked out from getting any.

 

dude everyone gets comms in unranked warzones. it is ridiculous to think they should discourage team play in an MMO. team up, or deal with facing premades. if you can't do that quit whining or stop doing warzones

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Once more, please answer what is stopping those "random" players from grouping up themselves.

 

First off. Doing WZ'es is a team effort. You are 1 out of 8. So implying that solo queuing is antisocial is just wrong.

 

There are lots of reasons for wanting to pug a WZ

- You can just jump into one. No need to find/wait for "the right ppl" to come online too

- You have the freedom to unqueue/log off again at anytime without having explain anything.

- You get random teammates. This can be very fun and surprising experience. It's s rollercoaster of suprises instead of eating the "same old stale premade bread"

- You might play odd hours.

- Every WZ is random and new. The outcome is never a statistically given, as going up with/against certain premades can be.

- You might just not want to make social ties beyond meeting ppl in WZ'es. There is nowhere it is written that MMO's are meant for you to do everything in a group.

 

And several others I just can't remember right now.

Edited by Veniras
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First off. Doing WZ'es is a team effort. You are 1 out of 8. So implying that solo queuing is antisocial is just wrong.

 

There are lots of reasons for wanting to pug a WZ

- You can just jump into one. No need to find/wait for "the right ppl" to come online too

- You have the freedom to unqueue/log off again at anytime without having explain anything.

- You get random teammates. This can be very fun and surprising experience. It's s rollercoaster of suprises instead of eating the "same old stale premade bread"

- You might play odd hours.

- Every WZ is random and new. The outcome is never a statistically given, as going up with/against certain premades can be.

- You might just not want to make social ties beyond meeting ppl in WZ'es. There is nowhere it is written that MMO's are meant for you to do everything in a group.

 

And several others I just can't remember right now.

 

1. It is very nice to jump in at any time, I agree. However, I also expect my chances of winning drop considerably, whether facing groups or other "randoms." In a game that relies on teamwork, any "solo" queueing has a much greater chance at failure.

 

2. Is it really hard to say "Alright peeps, I'm taking a break?" I did it just 30 minutes ago because i got the random itch to play Boarderlands 2.

 

3. The same experience can be had while groups of 4 can queue up. It isn't like a team of randoms never beats 4 friends playing together. Rather than see if the team of randoms can beat a tough opponent, you would rather your opponents be just as un-organized? I suppose some might consider this a decent reason, but I'd rather push myself (and my team) then demand my opponents suck more.

 

4. Every WZ can be different reguardless of the players. One premade tends to favor a 2/4/2 strategy? Give them hell and got 4/0/4, or 1/3/5, etc... Once again, it's a question of pushing yourself harder rather than asking your opponents suck more.

 

5. Massive Multiplayer Online.

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Group and single queues ARE seperated. They are called normal or regular war zones, and ranked war zones. Sometimes you lose and sometimes you win. Get some friends if you don't like to lose sometimes. Nothing will change and BW needs to do nothing.

 

/THREAD

 

edit: Your guild refuses to do rankeds unless they have 16 online so it is against their own team? WOW. I understand now why you would think normal war zones are unbalanced do to you having to play with or against anyone other than your guildmates. /BOGGLE

 

No, they aren't. You can group up with 4 people and queue for regular WZs. This also enables two groups of four players each to synch queue and get into a regular WZ together. What I see most often on my server is two partial premades (two groups of 4) from two different guilds. While they aren't from the same guild, it is extremely rare to see any PUG be able to win against that. Just a single partial premade of 4 people can be a game changer in regular WZs against a pure PUG. But since I'm guessing you already knew that, I can only assume you're trying to be argumentative.

 

As for why we do Ranked against each other, when we're playing against each other it's not only great practice without the pressure of winning/losing, but also no one gets left out because we don't have to worry about class composition (other than making sure the teams are relatively even). If we were doing Ranked against a Republic team, we'd need to be very picky about which classes we bring in order to stack the team for the best chance of winning. This is one of the fundamental problems with Ranked WZs in that it encourages classism. Why bring two Sorc healers when one is enough and an Operative healer is far superior in terms of mobility? Why bring two Marauders when one with 80% Predation for the first cap is sufficient? And so on. We also don't need to worry about gear issues, such as bringing anyone who might not be full augmented WH+. Finally, given the non-existant match-making system in Ranked WZs, the practice we get against each other is not something we'd be able to benefit from when we're queued against a top ranked team who ends up farming us at spawn, which are typically the only teams that actually queue up for Ranked.

 

I've mentioned it in other posts, but the way RIFT handles their PvP queue is pretty good. Not only will a grouped queue not be placed against a solo queue thereby preventing premades of any size from playing against PUGs, but they also match by gear level using their Prestige rank (which functions exactly the same way as Valor does in this game). The way they support this queue system is with cross-server queues, which as I mentioned, Bioware is unable to do for some reason. Unfortunately, I don't see this changing in TOR anytime soon, if ever, hence why I suggested toward the end of my post that players don't queue solo in this game or avoid PvP altogether.

Edited by Mournblood
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- You get random teammates. This can be very fun and surprising experience. It's s rollercoaster of suprises instead of eating the "same old stale premade bread"

 

I'm supposed to eat my teammates? How come no one told me this before now?

 

Do I at least get a nice wine to go with them?

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The problem is the matchmaking system, i think BW should have taken a note from a diff game called global agenda where they match people by their ranking, and ranking is done on regular matches as well as guild matches. That way if u go against guys with amazing gear they mostlikely have better rating and so you will get a few great geared guys to compensate as well.
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Here are some personal statistics over the past 3 days from solo pvp'ing on the Republic side of the Progenitor server. I used Recruit gear only at the start to see the incentive a new player will have. To see if he will keep playing pvp:

 

Played 38 matches over the course of 3 days:

 

Won: 4. Lost: 34.

Number of times queued against a premade (3 or 4 people from the same guild): 23

Number of times queued with a premade (3 or 4 people from the same guild): 2

Number of times lost against the Republic: 0

Number of times lost against the Empire: 34

Number of times won against the Republic: 4

Number of times won against the Empire: 0

Number of times grouped without a healer: 17

Number of times faced an enemy group without a healer: 1

Number of times faced an exceptional enemy group (4 or more players with War Hero title or above): 10

Number of times queued with an exceptional group (4 or more players with War Hero or above): 1

Number of times queued with an inadequate group (4 or more players in Recruit): 10

Number of deaths: stopped counting.

 

As you can see from this limited survery, queuing solo meant losing the overwhelming majority of the games (a ratio of 4-34), almost all of them against the Empire. I've been in 4 true PuGvsPuG matches and incidentally every single one of them was Rep vs Rep we won.

 

23 times ouf of 38 (all in Rep vs Imp) we faced three or more players from the same guild. On my team this happened twice but we lost those matches as well due to the fact that:

 

10 times out of 38 we had 4 or more people (!!!) in Recruit gear (myself included of course), whereas 10 out of 38 times we faced enemy groups where 4 or more people were sporting War Hero, Conqueror, Warlord etc. titles.

 

This was further compounded by the fact that 17 (!) out of 38 times our team did not have a healer. Only once was I in a match where I could not find an enemy healer to mark.

 

I did not exactly count how many times our group was utterly annihilated (0-6 huttball, 100-0% novare etc.) but there were a lot of instances where we could not hold a single node in Civil War. Coordination was ok, we always discussed tactics, 9 out of 10 times people called out inc but the general lack of healers AND the overall gear advantage enjoyed by the enemies AND the fact that 23 matches had 3 or 4 people from the same guild made sure that no amount of coordination would make a difference.

 

Look at the numbers and tell me why a new lvl50 would bother to play pvp again after this?

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Facing premades more than half the time (23/38) was part of the reason we kept losing but not the only part. The drastic lack of healers wasn't helping either. And the fact that in almost every 3rd match or so we had 4 people in Recruit.

 

I haven't tried pvp as an Imperial yet. I'm curious to do some statistics when I hit 50 to see if it's easier to level up somewhat as an Imperial.

 

I've seen many opinions by many people (some say it's fine, the majority call for changes) but I think there is something very wrong with pvp if solo queuing means autoloss.

 

Here are the personal statistics from the last 3 days of PvP on the Progenitor server, this time as an Imperial. Again, began with Recruit gear to see if a new lvl50 player has enough incentive to keep playing pvp.

 

Played 38 matches over the course of 3 days:

Class played: Sniper (Marksmanship)

 

Won: 16. Lost: 22.

Number of times queued against a premade (3 or 4 people from the same guild): 26

Number of times queued with a premade (3 or 4 people from the same guild): 24

Number of times played against the Republic: 6 (Won: 6; Lost: 0; Premades: 0)

Number of times played against the Empire: 32 (Won: 10; Lost: 22; Premades: 26)

Number of times faced an enemy group without a healer: 4 (Republic: 4; Empire: 0)

Number of times queued without a healer: 0

Number of times faced an exceptional enemy group (4 or more players with War Hero title or above): 24

Number of times queued with an exceptional group (4 or more players with War Hero or above): 21

Number of times queued with an inadequate group (4 or more players in Recruit): 0

 

As you can see, right away, the stats look a lot brighter while playing PvP as an Imperial on the Progenitor server. While I've stil lost more matches than I've won, I have actually had several matches whose outcomes were very close. The overall average win-lose was more even as an Imperial: 16-22 as opposed to 4-34 while playing a Pub character. We had a 100% win ratio against the Republic (6/6) but from the experience of my previous stats, these teams might very well have been true PuGs.

 

Just as a Rep player, the overwhelming majority of the matches were against the Empire. I had 6 matches against the Republic, whereas I played 32 against the Empire. The most popular warzone was Huttball, which popped 15 times.

 

Pre-made-wise the situation was actually quite balanced. We had a premade team (3 or 4 players from the same guild) on our warzone team 24 times and we faced a similar opposition 26 times. Even where my team did not have at least 3 people from the same guild, it always had at least 2, sometimes as many as 3 teams of 2 people. This also meant that we never got into a warzone as a "true" PuG.

 

Also, I'm proud to say that 38 out of 38 times our team had a healer! What is more, 30 times we had at least 2 healers! Unfortunately, our opposition was not so lucky healers-wise, as 4 out of 6 times their teams did not have a healer I could mark (unless they sent them to guard objectives but I guess even they wouldn't do that). This is more or less in line what I perceived as a "drastic lack of healers on the Rep side" in my previous statistics.

 

War Hero geared people were a very common sight fortunately both in premade teams and outside. Recruit players were actually a minority and this allowed many teams to effectively "carry" us to victory (although I like to think I've done what I could to contribute.) Only in one warzone did we have 3 Recruit geared players, never 4.

 

Conclusion: This is is a limited survey, so my conclusion is equally limited. On the Progenitor server, right now, Empire is definitely the faction to choose for PvP. It is more balanced, more diverse role-wise and the large number of premades on both your team and the enemy Imperial team can actually bring close and enjoyable matches. I have to admit I did feel a bit like a small fish watching the large sharks battling all around but at least our team had sharks as well instead of other small fish. This meant that I got far more commendations, more Valor levels and had more fun overall instead of the bitter frustration I had as a Rep player. It was a more rewarding experience in every way.

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I wouldn't say premades, per se, are killing non-ranked warzones. Instead, I'd say matchmaking is killing non-ranked warzones. The system that exists needs an overhaul since now with consolidated servers the population should be sufficient for matchmaking:

 

- 2 Premades v 2 Premades

- 1 Premade + 4 PUGS v 1 Premade +4 PUGs

- 8 PUGs v 8 PUGs

 

Those are the only queues that should be necessary in unranked. There will still be composition and expertise imbalances which could also be considered in matchmaking, but realistically, this is unranked. It will be toss up and is the luck of the draw. It carries the same risk of queuing into Group Finder -- you will sometimes run into the good groups and then others you'll run into the outright bizzare (I still have no idea what the Shadow Tank in Tionese Sage DPS gear and Guardian Tank MH/OH was doing in HM LI, nor do I understand how the hell we managed to clear it). In other words, when queuing solo, it should say "Queue at your own risk."

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Pre-mades are helping non-ranked WZ's.

 

Helping me get wins.... group up and do the same.

 

Working as intended.

 

If a guild has 4 or 6 people online do you expect them to queue separately just so YOU can have better chance of getting a win? :rolleyes:

Edited by UGLYMRJ
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Pre-mades are helping non-ranked WZ's.

 

Helping me get wins.... group up and do the same.

 

Working as intended.

So I guess the ranked queue also works like intended? Some pugstompers claim the ranked queue never pops unless they field two 8-man teams. They do that because they don't enjoy being rolled in RWZ. I mean why else would you have to exchange members between the two teams queuing to prevent people from leaving the teams?

 

Well I'm not sure I care because this game will probably end up like warhammer by the end of next year. Maybe the PvE servers will thrive due to people doing the class stories for free.

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So I guess the ranked queue also works like intended? Some pugstompers claim the ranked queue never pops unless they field two 8-man teams. They do that because they don't enjoy being rolled in RWZ. I mean why else would you have to exchange members between the two teams queuing to prevent people from leaving the teams?

 

If more guilds actually worked on being better and more competitive.... much like my guild is doing. We wouldn't have either of these "problems". Blame the players... not the game. Everyone is so worried about having their damn internet ego bruised that they're afraid of a few rated losses. If more teams queue'd for rated you wouldn't always be pitted up against the 1-2 beast guilds on your server who are wrecking faces. You'd actually have a chance to face a guild of equal skill... or even better.... you could focus on improving your game play and work at getting on those guilds level.

 

Hell... the top guild in our server actually split teams with us and we broke into 4 and 4 mixes with their guild and got on vent. They want the competition too... these guys saw the potential of us being competitive with them and grouped with us for rated to give advice. What you don't realize... is these guys are bored with rolling people. They WANT competition but no one is even attempting to give it to them. Most guilds are backing down like scared kittens instead of taking their licks and improving their game play. You're NOT going to get better by playing guild worse than you... you WILL get better by playing guilds better than you.

 

These guilds are queuing for regular WZ's because no one is queuing against them in rated. Again... a player issue, not a game design flaw.

 

So to answer your question... Yes, rated is working as intended. It's the players who ARE NOT working as intended. People complained about not having rated for months and now that we have it people don't queue because they're scared to take a beating and be humbled.

 

People wanted rated for competitive PvP... it's there. The best and baddest guilds on your server want you to queue and they want you to be competitive. It's not their fault that they're on a another level. The goal should be obtaining that level... not complaining about it.

Edited by UGLYMRJ
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As a PVE'er i only pvp'd so I could take advantage of the benefit of having the 2 pc set bonus from both a pvp set and the pve set, put my blackhole mods in and went back to my realm of PVE. Do what I did, just stop pvping, when I want to pvp i go play "the other game". But when I want adventure i play this game. After all this game was not designed for pvp, think of pvp on SWTOR as a mini-game and you'll understand my perception of this point of view.

 

Ifolad 50 jug smash

Ifo 50 Sage heals

Ifo'lek 38 scoundral healer

Rhodea 33 tactics trooper

Ifogroda 33 lightning sorce

Ifoza 34 balance shadow

Seenya 25 anni marauder

Groda 23 merc body guard

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So I guess the ranked queue also works like intended? Some pugstompers claim the ranked queue never pops unless they field two 8-man teams. They do that because they don't enjoy being rolled in RWZ. I mean why else would you have to exchange members between the two teams queuing to prevent people from leaving the teams?

 

Well I'm not sure I care because this game will probably end up like warhammer by the end of next year. Maybe the PvE servers will thrive due to people doing the class stories for free.

 

As the above exampled was directed at me, allow me to respond.

 

My guild forms an 8 man, all set for ranked. We're hoping for a ranked match. Queue up... nothing. Sit around on the fleet waiting for a match. 30 minutes later still nothing, so we double queue for ranked and regular (one 8 man and 2 4 man's). End up in a match against an Imp double premade as well. Great!

 

We spam in /say "Go ranked after this! We're trying to do ranked."

 

We win the match, go back to waiting in ranked queue. Nothing... nothing... Nothing...

 

That's what happens when we try to do ranked. Annoyed, we then divide our group 4 and 4, invite 4 randoms/friends, balance the teams so none of the randoms have a fit and leave, and then we queue.

 

The ranked queue is then bugged. We know for a fact we have 2 teams in ranked, waiting to pvp. No pop, nothing. Takes all 16 people relogging and reforming for it to pop.

 

Do you know how much work that is, just to spare "PuG'ers" the pain of dealing with us wanting to play the game, as it is intended?

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As the above exampled was directed at me, allow me to respond.

 

My guild forms an 8 man, all set for ranked. We're hoping for a ranked match. Queue up... nothing. Sit around on the fleet waiting for a match. 30 minutes later still nothing, so we double queue for ranked and regular (one 8 man and 2 4 man's). End up in a match against an Imp double premade as well. Great!

 

We spam in /say "Go ranked after this! We're trying to do ranked."

 

We win the match, go back to waiting in ranked queue. Nothing... nothing... Nothing...

 

That's what happens when we try to do ranked. Annoyed, we then divide our group 4 and 4, invite 4 randoms/friends, balance the teams so none of the randoms have a fit and leave, and then we queue.

 

The ranked queue is then bugged. We know for a fact we have 2 teams in ranked, waiting to pvp. No pop, nothing. Takes all 16 people relogging and reforming for it to pop.

 

Do you know how much work that is, just to spare "PuG'ers" the pain of dealing with us wanting to play the game, as it is intended?

Well that situation is what normal warzones will be like in a half a year or so if you keep steamrolling in normal warzones. But whatever do what you want since your sub money is worth just as much as mine and every other solo queuer. Just don't QQ when you have to do the same procedure for normal warzones or wait forever for queues to pop in half a year because no one queues for PvP. That is unless F2P is a real hit. I doubt people will play this game for the PvP though.

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