Just have the devs remove the access to self heal when selecting the DPS trees and you got a deal.

LOL Which class self heal? I'd be willing to bet either would trade that for more effective DPS.

Sweetheart, I realize you're used to always having the advantage against other classes, but you can't have the upperhand against EVERY class.

 

If you really want to kill them, roll a DPS scoundrel/op and faceroll them.

Damn you for making me laugh and spill soda on my keyboard.

In lowbie, they're unstoppable killing machines. Absolute kings.

In level 50 PvP, they are very good. But nothing more than that. When it comes to killing the enemy's DPS, stealthers' number one priority should be hunting down the Gunslingers/Snipers. That's it, really. Sorcerers/Sages can wreck them pretty badly as well if there are options for LOS.

In lowbie, they're unstoppable killing machines. Absolute kings.

 

In level 50 PvP, they are very good. But nothing more than that. When it comes to killing the enemy's DPS, stealthers' number one priority should be hunting down the Gunslingers/Snipers. That's it, really. Sorcerers/Sages can wreck them pretty badly as well if there are options for LOS.

Even in sub 50; if you know what you are doing you can kill a sniper pretty easily with any class so long as you have an obstacle to work with. If you have that, you stay behind it when you see their big ol' batwings in front of them. Then when it is down you run up and knock them out of cover and pummel em. From range; you can use instant shots and pick them to death while LOS-humping.

Now in a crowded team fight a sniper can get you pretty good and you may not have the luxury of LOS

Even in sub 50; if you know what you are doing you can kill a sniper pretty easily with any class so long as you have an obstacle to work with. If you have that, you stay behind it when you see their big ol' batwings in front of them. Then when it is down you run up and knock them out of cover and pummel em. From range; you can use instant shots and pick them to death while LOS-humping.

 

Now in a crowded team fight a sniper can get you pretty good and you may not have the luxury of LOS

Luxury of LOS? What about luxury of time? I can't really imagine a circumstance in which you can afford to just hide out of LOS for twenty seconds in a warzone.

Then I was going to explain about how OS makes this tactic not work, but I realized you said "even in sub-50" and realized it was not really applicable. I may be a little overly dependent on OS in duels, but it's SO cuddly and so wonderful to force melee to fight in.

Snipers do pretty well in duels. Except against Concealment Operatives, who CLEARLY need to be nerfed some more, and to a lesser degree assassins/shadows.

"cover" meet overdrive...done.

"entrench" meet AOE

"debilitate" same as other classes stuns

"flashbang" same as other classes mez

"leg shot" meet purge and force speed

"shield probe" = poor mans static

"evasion" meet aoe

"balistic shield" admittedly that's a pretty neat trick. But a cooldown of 3 mins doesnt worry me.

"cover pulse" not very effective against ranged attacks

"shatter shot" ok that's a mean one, but a stun could sure reduce the damage from whatever comes next

"ambush knockback" doesn't really bother ranged dps too much

Snipers and Gunslinger don't need a nerf. L2P

They are strong in some place in Warzone like all class have their pro and cons.

Sage/Sorcerer:

You can easily kill a sniper by usiing DoT when you can get some LoS. If you can't get LoS don't even think about it.

Mara/Sent:

Use your skill to decrease is accuracy by 90%. Use your stealth to get next to him. Choke him if his big barrer isn't up so all your Warrior can jump on him.

All class have tools to counter the sniper, but a really good sniper can be a pain in the ***. FOCUS FIRE HIM then and stop crying for nerf.

Luxury of LOS? What about luxury of time? I can't really imagine a circumstance in which you can afford to just hide out of LOS for twenty seconds in a warzone.

 

Then I was going to explain about how OS makes this tactic not work, but I realized you said "even in sub-50" and realized it was not really applicable. I may be a little overly dependent on OS in duels, but it's SO cuddly and so wonderful to force melee to fight in.

 

Snipers do pretty well in duels. Except against Concealment Operatives, who CLEARLY need to be nerfed some more, and to a lesser degree assassins/shadows.

Are you really calling for nerfs based on deuls?

As for the 20 seconds of LOS. Better 20s than to charge and take the kill.

Are you really calling for nerfs based on deuls?

 

As for the 20 seconds of LOS. Better 20s than to charge and take the kill.

I'm not calling for nerfs at all. I think snipers are well balanced. (Though I think EP should be every 20 seconds instead of every 30 seconds -- engineering needs a little more burst).

But "wait 20s then go after them" (or the 1 v 1 discussion generally) is really only applicable in a duel scenario -- such as when a sniper is guarding a turret solo and is attacked or (more rarely) attacks a node solo. But that 20 seconds fiddling thumbs would either be used to get backup, or to get the objective.

It's not hard to kill a sniper 2 v 1, entrench or no entrench, and there's no reason to solo anyone in a general skirmish.

As to whether it's better to attack an entrenched sniper or not die --- that's fairly situational. If they're burning down a healer, it may be time to put on big kid pants and deal with the sniper sooner rather than later, even if means dying.

While snipers are good... they definitely don't need a nerf.

Which leads me to one conclusion...

That object between the keyboard and your desk chair could obviously use a buff.

Snipers/Slingers are a beautifully balanced Ranged DPS class. Leave them alone.

HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

I actually went through the thread looking for you comment. Good timing..

On second thought... nerf gunslingers and snipers immediately!!!

I'm not calling for nerfs at all. I think snipers are well balanced. (Though I think EP should be every 20 seconds instead of every 30 seconds -- engineering needs a little more burst).

 

But "wait 20s then go after them" (or the 1 v 1 discussion generally) is really only applicable in a duel scenario -- such as when a sniper is guarding a turret solo and is attacked or (more rarely) attacks a node solo. But that 20 seconds fiddling thumbs would either be used to get backup, or to get the objective.

 

It's not hard to kill a sniper 2 v 1, entrench or no entrench, and there's no reason to solo anyone in a general skirmish.

Yeah, it's not a situation I would say you go after; but I have had it happen before to where I have went after a sniper when our teams are skirmishing below, just because I knew not to just let him sit up top and take shots. The sniper throws out that entrench and cover pulse me, setting me up to duck behind a wall. That gives him a choice to waste 20 seconds with me, or to ignore that I was there and resume firing; either way, he is not hitting me. A lot of times; they decide to relocate and kill their own entrench.

I'm not sure if Eng needs a lower CD on that. I am torn between MM and Eng on my sniper when I play him. MM feels more like a sniper to me and can really burn down soft targets. Eng provides a lot of tools though; that are very team oriented.

I'm not calling for nerfs at all. I think snipers are well balanced. (Though I think EP should be every 20 seconds instead of every 30 seconds -- engineering needs a little more burst).

 

But "wait 20s then go after them" (or the 1 v 1 discussion generally) is really only applicable in a duel scenario -- such as when a sniper is guarding a turret solo and is attacked or (more rarely) attacks a node solo. But that 20 seconds fiddling thumbs would either be used to get backup, or to get the objective.

 

It's not hard to kill a sniper 2 v 1, entrench or no entrench, and there's no reason to solo anyone in a general skirmish.

 

As to whether it's better to attack an entrenched sniper or not die --- that's fairly situational. If they're burning down a healer, it may be time to put on big kid pants and deal with the sniper sooner rather than later, even if means dying.

EP usage is what separates noob Engineering Snipers from Godlike Engineering Snipers. It takes a good amount of skill to make the best use of it. On the contrary I had snipers placing the explosive probe when i was dashing my way out of their line of sight.. I was out of their line of sight with that explosive ball waiting to be triggered at my feet, fat chance, i can wait a little beyond the corner until that thing expires

Besides the 30 CD of EP is the defining weakness of engineering. It has to stay that way, or there will be way too much incentives to go Engineering over MM or Lethality.

It's a very fine example why the sniper is balanced in PVP. My only gripe with it are way how Asassins and Operatives deny me from soloing enemy capture points. I can handle marauders, sorcerers, PT, mercs, juggernauts solo, but a talented assassin is just way too much to handle.

On second thoughts.. let the stealthers have an easy time with snipers. I think duel wise, a sniper getting stealth attacked by an assassin or operative is probably one of the most skill intensive match-ups in game. Nothing in this game demands so much good reaction and anticipation, with Sniper vs marauder coming in close second.

I dunno, any class that can be beaten by walking around the corner seems counterable by any class.

Seriously though, these are a pain for warrior types, but as that is their primary purpose, I don't see the problem.

Just have the devs remove the access to self heal when selecting the DPS trees and you got a deal.

wow. if you ever catch a dps sage/commando trying to heal himself in the middle of a fight, you've already won. stop gawking and finish him. those heals aren't worth crap if they aren't spec'd, and they WASTE a lot of time in the cast. christ. a sin heals himself more efficiently than a dps commando. get over this "pure dps" bias. if you're not spec'd heal, the heals are useless. lol you can have my assault commando's heals. wow. I lose exactly one medpac in the deal, and that's only if I wanna sacrifice the burst that I could get by instant casting a plasma grenade.

I dunno, any class that can be beaten by walking around the corner seems counterable by any class.

 

Seriously though, these are a pain for warrior types, but as that is their primary purpose, I don't see the problem.

The problem with warrior classes players, the beginner ones, some of them have even a more narrow vision than snipers do. They are just so focused on their current melee target that they forget to notice that they are outgunned and shouldn't drag their presence too long in that territory. Since they have the tools for it, like huge damage reduction, combat vanish, they should not complain about snipers.

Personally i would prefer for Range DPS in SWTOR to have a 2s shorter interrupt as they are a joke at dealing with healers currently. 12s CD is just way too much, basically forces the mindset: if you want a healer dead - put a marauder or PT on him. Because everything else will take ages to kill.

EP usage is what separates noob Engineering Snipers from Godlike Engineering Snipers. It takes a good amount of skill to make the best use of it. On the contrary I had snipers placing the explosive probe when i was dashing my way out of their line of sight.. I was out of their line of sight with that explosive ball waiting to be triggered at my feet, fat chance, i can wait a little beyond the corner until that thing expires

There are engineers who don't have interrogation probe on their current kill target? (I mean, running like hell can protect you from the cluster bombs I guess, but those matter way more for energy regen than not damage). I guess target switching happens - grudgingly -- but I hate it when it does. Need to keep track of who has IP to get the adrenaline probe & shield probe reset. If you're killing the guy with it on them, easy to remember!

Besides the 30 CD of EP is the defining weakness of engineering. It has to stay that way, or there will be way too much incentives to go Engineering over MM or Lethality.

You make a good point. Need to maintain the Special Snowflake status of engineer snipers.

It's a very fine example why the sniper is balanced in PVP. My only gripe with it are way how Asassins and Operatives deny me from soloing enemy capture points. I can handle marauders, sorcerers, PT, mercs, juggernauts solo, but a talented assassin is just way too much to handle.

Eh. No different from any other class really. If no one seems to be there, 1-2 stealthers. Do not attack. If 1 visible, then there may be a stealther --- if so, solo attacker would lose no matter what their class was. If decide to take chance and charge in, sniper is in a good spot to solo the visible guard and take the objective

(Why is everyone else focusing on difficulty against assassins? They're hard, but not damn-near impossible like ops. Maybe I suck to an unusual degree vs. ops.)

On second thoughts.. let the stealthers have an easy time with snipers. I think duel wise, a sniper getting stealth attacked by an assassin or operative is probably one of the most skill intensive match-ups in game. Nothing in this game demands so much good reaction and anticipation, with Sniper vs marauder coming in close second.

I disagree. Assassin duel is good fight. Operatives just have too much burst and they can LOS/mezz to self-heal -- I mean, it's fun crowing when you actually (rarely) WIN, but it's not competitive enough to be a good "skill match." (Or at least I hope it's not, considering my current record.)

I don't think marauders are that skill intensive, it's just an advantage: sniper class matchup. With a little presence of mind, snipers just need to root that when their defense cooldowns are up, plus rotate defensive cooldowns appropriately. Even dueling a marauder badly (as alas I often do), and not paying attention to their defensive cooldowns like an idiot until it's Too Late, it's a match that will usually end with sniper victory at a sliver of health.

Stop looking at mara's and powertechs for a few minutes. Look at snipers...

No, it's not a QQ thread, because I have 4 toons valor 60+ and a sniper valor 52.

 

Let's look at the defensive abilities sniper's have.

 

- Cover - You cant jump him.

 

- Entrench - immune of ALL control abilities, lasts 20 seconds... 20 seconds IMMUNE of all CC's, knockbacks, whatever... Force Shroud lasts 5 secs.. 45 secs cooldown.

 

- Debilitate - stun the target for 4 seconds, NOT breaks on damage. 45 secs coodown.

- Flashbang - stun the target for 8 seconds, breaks on damage. 1 min cooldown.

 

- Leg Shot - instant root, lasts 5 seconds, breaks if damage after 2 seconds... He can use leg shot, shoot you before 2 seconds, you can do nothing and you will wait more 3 seconds until the root finish. 16 secs cooldown.

 

- Shield Probe - Absorb damage for 15 seconds. 45 secs cooldown.

 

- Evasion - dodge melee and ranged atacks by 100% chance, lasts 3 seconds. 1 min cooldown.

 

- Ballistic Shield - deploys a giant shield reducing the damge taken for you and all allies by 20%, lasts 15 secs. 3 min cooldown.

 

- Cover Pulse - knocks your target to the moon, AND root 5 seconds. Breaks if damage after 2 seconds, he can shoot you before 2 seconds, you can do nothing and you will wait more 3 seconds until the root finish. 30 secs cooldown.

 

- Shatter Shot - Reduce the target armor by 20% for 45 secs. Inflicts Trauma for 9 secs and reduce all healing the target receives by 20%. 5 secs cooldown.

 

- Ambush knockback - Marksmanship has a 1 point talent: When Ambush strikes a target within 10 meters, the target is knocked back several meters.

 

So 11 defensive tools, a LOT OF damage, you guys know how much hurts each shoot from a sniper. He can kill you in 3 GCD.

 

Seriously Bioware, this class NEEDS a huge nerf.

 

"just LOS him"... No, melee class has no gap closer against snipers.

L2P? Ok, roll a melee and try to kill a sniper.

 

English i'ts not my first language, sorry for mistakes.

Thanks.

I didn't read all the ppsts to this thread so if what I say has been addressed I apologize.

Key thing to note about snipe/slingers is they literally have 0 mobility. They have to take cover for nearly all their abilities. I had this argument with my broinlaw whom plays a mara and was all up in arms about not being able to jump at them.

So here is the deal, the concept of the sniper is to kill from a distance. When a melee stays in melee range with a sniper the sniper dies. So the goal of the sniper is to keep you at range.

Seriously the ONLY class that can not "regularly" kill a sniper is the mara! Second being the other melee class jugs.

I Have 4 50's. A sorc that can easilly take down a sniper, a jugg that regularly takes down snipers, a PT that easily defends against a sniper and the SNIPER that allowed me to learn all the weakness and strengths of the sniper!

Because I am fairly good at playing a sniper I am leathal in WZs. However the mobility of other classes really give everyone else the advantage.

If they nerf the sniper at either long range or short you kill the class altogether. It is indead a very balanced class.

And because OP promoted the 20 second imune every minute that is the same ratio as the PT, Jugg and Sins imune buff. Additionally if the sniper has to move before the 20 second buff he loses it for the entire minute. Not so with the other 3 ACs.

It is a class you have to play to understand how weak and strong they truely are. Playing against one will only make them feel OP.

Tragamite

what's your PT tank experience against Snipers currently? I have not experienced this match-up after 1.4.

The way the gear scaled on my sniper it provided me more and more chances to overcome even the worst possible matchup which is MM against PT Tank. Even this match-up that is supposed to be a desperate experience for a sniper, i could hold my ground thanks to Target Acquired changes, which allows me to overcome your high defense and high armor.

Engineering has more tech damage options which already shifts the match-up in my favor, especially since i go for 22000 hp on my engi.

Lethality, no need to comment here as it pretty much designed to hard counter you.

So unless you have a pocket medic, i do not feel threatened by PT Tanks.

Actually the wost match-up of PT specs used to be PT Pyro vs Lethality, because it does not have ballistic dampers. But after the range nerf i have no idea how this matchup changed.