Fact 1: PvP driven games are the most successful on today´s PC market (WoT, LoL and DOTA2)

While true, none of those games qualifies as a MMORPG, since none of them got anything even close to a persistent world.

Fact 2: Warzones in SWTOR are part of the most played content in SWTOR

On this "fact" I would like to see a source. From what I see on /who lists, people at lvl 55 are spending a lot more time in operations than in warzones... but that could be, cause the PvP-crowd and the PvE-crowd are not mixing much. Still I challenge that fact without seeing any hard data for it.

2. PvP puzzle raids

Expand the warzone concept and create "scenarios". Two teams, 12 vs 12 on a station, on a struggle against time repairing or sabotaging systems, solve random puzzles and minigames and also throw NPCs into the mix

Something like this was done in AION... two teams were attacking a spaceship and there were different ways to win the map... both PvP and PvE... the result was, that many times the teams were both rushing through the mobs in order to kill the ships captain first, winning the PvP map sometimes without even seeing the other team. In my opinion, mobs do not have any place in a PvP fight.

7. The PvP fleet invasion (Could be a daily or weekly mission)

Offer 24 player restriced versions of both fleets

Infiltrate the other faction fleet and eradicate the invasion

Brought up before and will likely be brought up again and again... But no, I see absolutely nothing positive in allowing a bunch of fully prepared 55er killers to invade the opposing fleet to wreak havoc and kill chars from lvl 10 to 55.

It could work as a warzone, where the attack does not harm the normal life on the fleet, but even players, who like to occasionally PvP do surely not want to be forced to PvP when they are just browsing the market, craft stuff or are AFK. The fleet is safe and it should stay safe.

On this "fact" I would like to see a source..

Okay, had to look a bit from where I remembered an article, but here some more evidence for the truth of Fact 2, directly from Bioware:

http://www.vg247.com/2012/05/02/bioware-switches-swtor-team-around-to-create-more-pvp-end-game-content/

"BioWare switches SWTOR team around to create more PvP, end game content"

"SWTOR lead designer Daniel Erickson has said the team at BioWare has realized how large the PvP community is, so it has “turned a huge amount of resources” towards creating more content"

Erickson said the team learned “two big lessons coming out of not just launch but beta testing,” when it came to development direction, one of which was not to underestimate the popularity of PvP among MMO players.

“Although we had not originally planned the game to be heavily PVP-focused, the ease of getting in and playing the Warzones combined with their fun design gave us the highest PvP participation of any modern triple-A MMO,” he said.

“At that point we turned a huge amount of our resources to PVP development, but we’re still playing a bit of catch-up, and that is understandably frustrating to our most advanced PVP users."

because it´s more about the general approach if you let players rather beat up

 

A) scripted AI mobs

or

B) each other in a non scripted, non predictable ways and different scenarios

 

 

B) is definitely the more interesting concept

PvP people never play Adventure games, that's for sure.

"Story ? Who cares ?" seems what they say.

For them - good.

But - both developers & publishers usually follow the trail of money - so, in the end, MMO will consist of nothing but PvP stuff ...

Good for the PvP folks, for the rest ... meh.

And SWTOR becoming almost solely an PvP-driven game - I'll quit.

Good for the PvP folks, bad for me (and probably for Bioware as well).

Aside from all of this : I hold a theory that PvP players are more aggressive players in general, which results in geing uch more vocal than everyone else ... Especially PvE players. Simply because PvP players are more "agressively vocal", imho. I see it every day when I look into the PvP forums ...

Wolves driving the Sheep out of "their" game ...

Okay, had to look a bit from where I remembered an article, but here some more evidence for the truth of Fact 2, directly from Bioware:

It's an interesting quote, to which I have two responses:

1. It still doesn't show that PvP is the driving force of this game. It tells you that they underestimated people's interest in PvP. Maybe you are right. I honestly wish I knew. This doesn't seem to tell us though.

2. I wish they could just decide whether they want to focus on PvE or PvP and be done with it. When I started playing SWTOR, it was kind of obvious that its main focus was PvE. Now I'm not so sure. If they come out and say they are more interested in PvP, I'll be moving on to other games right away. I would feel betrayed since this started out as a PvE driven game, but I just want to know. But I'm betting they desperately want to hang on to both their PvP and their PvE players. The issue is that they may end up disappointing everyone rather than getting at least one thing right.

While your ideas for PvP aren't actually bad, they belong in a PvP based game. I think suddenly changing SWTOR to be PvP based would be a very dishonest move.

What the hell? who is uninformed here?

World of Tanks, 60 million accounts, growing every day

DOTA 2 and LoL most played games, around 25+ million accounts

 

WoW and SWTOR can dream about numbers like this

 

http://venturebeat.com/2013/06/07/world-of-tanks-hits-60-million-registered-users/

 

http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2013/09/11/why-is-dota-2-the-biggest-game-on-steam/

 

http://www.pcgamer.com/2013/04/10/dota-2-overtakes-league-of-legends-as-most-played-pc-game-of-2013-claims-report/

 

so much for "completely baseless"

Thats nice and all, but those games are not the same thing as PvP in SWTOR.

It would be like comparing Call of Duty to the PvP in SWTOR...

Competetive versus multiplayer does not equate to MMO PvP.

APB is a completely PvP based game. But you would hardly compare that to the PvP in SWTOR now would you?

Face it, MMORPG PvP is not the same thing as DotA and LoL.

ah, sure, let´s put a new twist on this.

Before it was "but it´s the F2P market", now that SWTOR is F2P too, people don´t see " immediate correlation between 'most played' and 'most successful'"

Being that MOBAs (or ARTS or whatever you want to call them) are just the new flavour-of-the-month genre, and that bubble's gonna burst, I wouldn't see it as something to follow in a mad rush. As for successful, as you said - they're F2P. Show me the microtransaction profits if you're going to quantify success via players. I tried LoL once, to shut my brother up and haven't used it since... odds are, I'm still being counted as "one of the millions of players."

Jumping on the band-wagon is why we got just another MMO instead of KOTOR 3, after all.

What the hell? who is uninformed here?

World of Tanks, 60 million accounts, growing every day

DOTA 2 and LoL most played games, around 25+ million accounts

 

WoW and SWTOR can dream about numbers like this

 

http://venturebeat.com/2013/06/07/world-of-tanks-hits-60-million-registered-users/

 

http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2013/09/11/why-is-dota-2-the-biggest-game-on-steam/

 

http://www.pcgamer.com/2013/04/10/dota-2-overtakes-league-of-legends-as-most-played-pc-game-of-2013-claims-report/

 

so much for "completely baseless"

I'm sorry.. But number of players does not constitute successful..

And the games you have mentioned can only dream of collecting the amount of money WOW and SWTOR have.. Case closed..

Yes it is still baseless..

Not that I consider anything the OP stated as actual "fact', it is nice this game is adding to the PvP.

Would love an MMO to focus on PvP as much as it did on the PvE, I like both, and theres a good amount of PvE to enjoy in this game, especially compared to the PvP.

Sadly, I don't think SWToR is that MMO, but it is nice to see.

Warhammer 40K Eternal Crusade aims for a action oriented mmorpg, fps from the sounds of it with vehicle warfare etc. etc. with an emphasis on PvP, "bolt and pray" - ehm "plug and play"

it really bothers me that SWTOR has all the potential in the world to do everything on a big scale with the most successful I.P in the industry but here we are.. 4v4 and 8v8.. and the 4v4 ain't even war themed.. - so yeh, a HUGE gold-mine..

Galactic Starfighter is a huge step in the right direction, looking forward to that!

PvP games are always the top games, BUT we are not talking about MMORPG's here. We are talking shooters and more games that are deviations of shooters. Games where everyone is at an even playing field. Games where progression is horizontal not vertical. MMORPG's are not those games and haven't succeeded when trying to be those games.

So no there is no PvP driven goldmine OP. Though it doesn't hurt to give PvP some focus...

Well, It cant be disputed the World of Tanks is the largest MMO in the world right now....and it is PVP based. Only social games have more players to my knowledge.

60 million players last I heard...that is crazy.

Well, It cant be disputed the World of Tanks is the largest MMO in the world right now.

Yes it can be disputed. As in my definition, WoT is not an MMO at all.

It is an online game, and it got massive ammounts of players, but the most of people who are actually playing together at the same time is 20vs20 or something, but that is not massive.

To qualify for being am MMO, a game needs a persistant world, where theoretically all players could interact at the same time in game and meet at the same place without having to open a chat room.

While instances are ever growing in modern MMOs, there still is an open world in games like WoW, Tera, STO, SWTOR, L2, AO, Conan, LOTRO, etc... which makes these games MMOs.

If WoT is an MMO, then Online Poker is too.

Fact 1: PvP driven games are the most successful on today´s PC market (WoT, LoL and DOTA2)

Fact 2: Warzones in SWTOR are part of the most played content in SWTOR

Fact 3: Galactic Starfighter is purely PVP driven (probably also due to major problems with adding NPC AI)

Fact 4: PvP in SWTOR is actually pretty damn FUN

The only "facts" you just stated are numbers 1 & 3. Numbers 2 & 4 are simply your opinion, and one person's opinion means no more than another's. That being the case, I am only going to respond to your actual facts. So regarding the point of this thread, the flaw in your logic is assuming that just because PvP may be the most popular form of PC gaming in general, that the majority of people who play this specific game will want to PvP.

While it is true that some people enjoy both forms of gameplay, it is also obvious that many more people prefer PvE than PvP. But dont take my word for it, there is actual proof. You can check the server status any time of day, and you will never see PvP servers with a higher population than PvE servers. In fact, it is usually the reverse. Granted, there will be times when all servers show "standard". However, most of the time the PvE servers have heavier populations than the PvP servers. And I'm not talking about all PvE servers combined, because I know there are more PvE servers than PvP servers. What I'm talking about is the fact that the PvE servers actually get "heavy", while the PvP servers are almost always standard.

So regardless of the demographics of the gaming industry in general, the majority of players in this specific game prefer PvE gameplay. Therefore, Bioware is hardly sitting on any goldmine.

Everyone who enjoys PvP in SWTOR let´s join together on this little "wall of crazy" thread.

 

Some facts beforehand:

 

Fact 1: PvP driven games are the most successful on today´s PC market (WoT, LoL and DOTA2)

Fact 2: Warzones in SWTOR are part of the most played content in SWTOR

Facts are easy to come by when you just make them up, eh?

Fact 3: Galactic Starfighter is purely PVP driven (probably also due to major problems with adding NPC AI)

This one would seem to be an actual fact.

Fact 4: PvP in SWTOR is actually pretty damn FUN

If you added "for me," then this would be a fact. As written, it;s just your opinion.

When you actually post a fact.. Let me know..

I tend to think the same way. If it's a fact, let's see a source.

I'm all for making PvP fun. But until it's expertise and bolster free, I don't really care for it. PvP is supposed to be skill vs. skill. But games likes SWTOR and WoW make it about PvP stat hoarding, and I already have enough on my plate grinding a tank set, healing set, and DPS set for my two raiding toons. I don't have the time or patience to grind equal sets for PvP as well.

I tend to think the same way. If it's a fact, let's see a source.

 

I'm all for making PvP fun. But until it's expertise and bolster free, I don't really care for it. PvP is supposed to be skill vs. skill. But games likes SWTOR and WoW make it about PvP stat hoarding, and I already have enough on my plate grinding a tank set, healing set, and DPS set for my two raiding toons. I don't have the time or patience to grind equal sets for PvP as well.

Not in RPGs. Whether you are playing D&D with a group of friends, or playing an MMORPG, RPG combat is based on lots of stats and dice rolls. The only games where PvP is supposed to be based on skill alone is FPS. If you dont like stat based PvP that is fine, but that doesnt change the fact that that is how RPGs work.

Not in RPGs. Whether you are playing D&D with a group of friends, or playing an MMORPG, RPG combat is based on lots of stats and dice rolls. The only games where PvP is supposed to be based on skill alone is FPS. If you dont like stat based PvP that is fine, but that doesnt change the fact that that is how RPGs work.

D&D is not a PvP game and MMOs are not really RPGs.. MMO PvP should be like an FPS, player skill vs. player skill, not player gear vs. player gear.

D&D is not a PvP game and MMOs are not really RPGs.. MMO PvP should be like an FPS, player skill vs. player skill, not player gear vs. player gear.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion, however facts are facts:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mmorpg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Old_Republic

TOR is an MMORPG. If you do not enjoy RPG style combat I'm sorry, but that does not change the type of game this is.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion, however facts are facts:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mmorpg

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Old_Republic

 

TOR is an MMORPG. If you do not enjoy RPG style combat I'm sorry, but that does not change the type of game this is.

What branmakmuffin is talking about is the changes that came about first from tabletop rpgs becoming PC rpgs, and then those being further made MMOs.

Most MMORPGs, despite the rpg in the title have very little to do with roleplaying games. MMOs generally AREN'T about roleplaying. Some regular RPGs still bear resemblance to a tabletop rpg module(directed story), but MMORPGs almost have no relation.

RPG style combat isn't even a definable thing. There's no established set of rules that everyone follows in tabletop games, let alone in developing video game RPGs, let alone in developing MMO.

Most MMORPGs, despite the rpg in the title have very little to do with roleplaying games.

I disagree, but this since is just an opinion statement I wont say you are wrong

MMOs generally AREN'T about roleplaying.

Again, this is just your opinion. You cannot speak for how other people play their characters.

Some regular RPGs still bear resemblance to a tabletop rpg module(directed story), but MMORPGs almost have no relation.

Every MMORPG that I have played has combat based on various player stats, and the computer calculates all of those stats when attacks are made. That is the exact same way RPG combat works, except the computer is doing the work of the dice.

RPG style combat isn't even a definable thing.

See my above statement. No, every game does not use the exact same mechanics, but all RPGs use those same basic elements.