Well there are two kinds of love. A love for life and a love of a specific person. The Jedi practice a love of life, as in they want to protect life. They warn against a love of a specific person because a Jedi could risk the lives of others to save that one specific person.

I know hence what I said about attachment which is what your talking about

I know hence what I said about attachment which is what your talking about

I think love could go either way when it comes to the Force.

Grey Jedi Code: Tell my wife I said "Hello"

...or was that the neutral jedi...

Grey Jedi Code: Tell my wife I said "Hello"

 

...or was that the neutral jedi...

Neither that is the Swinger Jedi's code.. oh the things those guys do with Jedi mind tricks and lightsaber hilts... it's obscene

It always seemed to me, in the old republic era, Grey Jedi were those lightsiders who knew they had flaws, then accepted and owned them. In theory they would strive to balance that minute taint with the wisdom of the Council and guidance of the force. At least in theory.

The whole idea is based on the canon of reality, that there is no Light without dark or the shadows in between. Lucas can't demand a world in black and white. Eventually there will be shades of grey.

It always seemed to me, in the old republic era, Grey Jedi were those lightsiders who knew they had flaws, then accepted and owned them. In theory they would strive to balance that minute taint with the wisdom of the Council and guidance of the force. At least in theory.

 

The whole idea is based on the canon of reality, that there is no Light without dark or the shadows in between. Lucas can't demand a world in black and white. Eventually there will be shades of grey.

There is no "in-between" when it comes to Jedi and Sith. Those who believe there is don't understand the corrupting nature of the Dark Side. The Dark Side is corrupting. Sidious' was so powerful in the Dark Side, his mere presence could taint Jedi and even turn them. The Dark Side corrupts all things. We have seen it before. Look at Felucia. After Shaak Ti's death, the planet and it's inhabitants were deformed and tainted with the Dark Side.

Didn't Yoda say: "Once you start down the path, forever will it dominate your destiny" So in turn can you really go from dark to light? Anakin did, but where do you draw the line of gray?

As we've seen with Revan, you can switch from darkness to light, but that decision would not come lightly and you'd need a tremendously significant event to trigger it and the chances for that are not favorable.

I think that if someone who follows the light side decides that they can resist the dark side to the point that they master its use, and NOT be affected by it...they will ALWAYS fall into darkness. That is what happened to Revan, Malek, and Exar Kun even before that, as well as Freedom Nad. They all sought-out forbidden knowledge thinking that they could master it without it controlling THEM...and in the end...well, we all know the answer...

A light-side character cannot go dark without being consumed by darkness, so only someone who has fallen into darkness and turned to the light can master the powers of both light AND darkness (i.e. there is no other "middle-ground" other than being completely neutral like the Voss, there is no "gray-line").

I think that the true idea behind "grey jedi" is that they are warriors that have devoted themselves to maintaining balance between GOOD and EVIL, NOT meerly balance between light and dark. So, technically speaking, the Grey Jedi aren't somewhere BETWEEN light and dark, they're Warriors that are sworn to act as deter-rents against evil and to stand-up for what they believe is right.

I always thought the term "grey Jedi" referred to Jedi that acted outside of The Council, or at least, deviated from its words, if not their spiritual meanings. Jedi like Qui-Gon Jinn or Kyle Katarn (from what little I know of him). They're lightside users, and Jedi, but take a step back from the Order. A grey Jedi is simply a more maverick Jedi.

Alignment-wise, someone can have a grey morality, but it would be difficult to be a "grey" Force-user. The Force isn't something that you measure on a continuum, that is just a game mechanic introduced in RPGs. There are light side only Force powers, dark side only Force powers, and those accessible to both; but make no mistake, those accessible to both are not "grey", they're merely powers one could achieve through powerful, dark emotions (dark side) or through giving oneself to the Will of The Force (light side).

Certain Force users are capable of utilising both the light side and dark side if I'm not mistaken - pretty sure Kyle Katarn does this, and Revan is capable of it, but they're not "grey Force users", so much as Force users capable of using the dark side briefly without being entirely seduced by it (well, always seemed to end that way with Revan).

Sound about right?

I always thought the term "grey Jedi" referred to Jedi that acted outside of The Council, or at least, deviated from its words, if not their spiritual meanings. Jedi like Qui-Gon Jinn or Kyle Katarn (from what little I know of him). They're lightside users, and Jedi, but take a step back from the Order. A grey Jedi is simply a more maverick Jedi.

 

Alignment-wise, someone can have a grey morality, but it would be difficult to be a "grey" Force-user. The Force isn't something that you measure on a continuum, that is just a game mechanic introduced in RPGs. There are light side only Force powers, dark side only Force powers, and those accessible to both; but make no mistake, those accessible to both are not "grey", they're merely powers one could achieve through powerful, dark emotions (dark side) or through giving oneself to the Will of The Force (light side).

 

Certain Force users are capable of utilising both the light side and dark side if I'm not mistaken - pretty sure Kyle Katarn does this, and Revan is capable of it, but they're not "grey Force users", so much as Force users capable of using the dark side briefly without being entirely seduced by it (well, always seemed to end that way with Revan).

 

Sound about right?

^This. Just... this. Sums it up right there.

I always thought the term "grey Jedi" referred to Jedi that acted outside of The Council, or at least, deviated from its words, if not their spiritual meanings. Jedi like Qui-Gon Jinn or Kyle Katarn (from what little I know of him). They're lightside users, and Jedi, but take a step back from the Order. A grey Jedi is simply a more maverick Jedi.

 

Alignment-wise, someone can have a grey morality, but it would be difficult to be a "grey" Force-user. The Force isn't something that you measure on a continuum, that is just a game mechanic introduced in RPGs. There are light side only Force powers, dark side only Force powers, and those accessible to both; but make no mistake, those accessible to both are not "grey", they're merely powers one could achieve through powerful, dark emotions (dark side) or through giving oneself to the Will of The Force (light side).

 

Certain Force users are capable of utilising both the light side and dark side if I'm not mistaken - pretty sure Kyle Katarn does this, and Revan is capable of it, but they're not "grey Force users", so much as Force users capable of using the dark side briefly without being entirely seduced by it (well, always seemed to end that way with Revan).

 

Sound about right?

We have a winner.

I always thought the term "grey Jedi" referred to Jedi that acted outside of The Council, or at least, deviated from its words, if not their spiritual meanings. Jedi like Qui-Gon Jinn or Kyle Katarn (from what little I know of him). They're lightside users, and Jedi, but take a step back from the Order. A grey Jedi is simply a more maverick Jedi.

 

Alignment-wise, someone can have a grey morality, but it would be difficult to be a "grey" Force-user. The Force isn't something that you measure on a continuum, that is just a game mechanic introduced in RPGs. There are light side only Force powers, dark side only Force powers, and those accessible to both; but make no mistake, those accessible to both are not "grey", they're merely powers one could achieve through powerful, dark emotions (dark side) or through giving oneself to the Will of The Force (light side).

 

Certain Force users are capable of utilising both the light side and dark side if I'm not mistaken - pretty sure Kyle Katarn does this, and Revan is capable of it, but they're not "grey Force users", so much as Force users capable of using the dark side briefly without being entirely seduced by it (well, always seemed to end that way with Revan).

 

Sound about right?

I agree with this...

I always thought the term "grey Jedi" referred to Jedi that acted outside of The Council, or at least, deviated from its words, if not their spiritual meanings. Jedi like Qui-Gon Jinn or Kyle Katarn (from what little I know of him). They're lightside users, and Jedi, but take a step back from the Order. A grey Jedi is simply a more maverick Jedi.

 

Alignment-wise, someone can have a grey morality, but it would be difficult to be a "grey" Force-user. The Force isn't something that you measure on a continuum, that is just a game mechanic introduced in RPGs. There are light side only Force powers, dark side only Force powers, and those accessible to both; but make no mistake, those accessible to both are not "grey", they're merely powers one could achieve through powerful, dark emotions (dark side) or through giving oneself to the Will of The Force (light side).

 

Certain Force users are capable of utilising both the light side and dark side if I'm not mistaken - pretty sure Kyle Katarn does this, and Revan is capable of it, but they're not "grey Force users", so much as Force users capable of using the dark side briefly without being entirely seduced by it (well, always seemed to end that way with Revan).

 

Sound about right?

Wow, the first person that has hit the bullseye here in this thread. I here by dub you the LORD OF THE FORCE!!!

I always thought the term "grey Jedi" referred to Jedi that acted outside of The Council, or at least, deviated from its words, if not their spiritual meanings. Jedi like Qui-Gon Jinn or Kyle Katarn (from what little I know of him). They're lightside users, and Jedi, but take a step back from the Order. A grey Jedi is simply a more maverick Jedi.

 

Alignment-wise, someone can have a grey morality, but it would be difficult to be a "grey" Force-user. The Force isn't something that you measure on a continuum, that is just a game mechanic introduced in RPGs. There are light side only Force powers, dark side only Force powers, and those accessible to both; but make no mistake, those accessible to both are not "grey", they're merely powers one could achieve through powerful, dark emotions (dark side) or through giving oneself to the Will of The Force (light side).

 

Certain Force users are capable of utilising both the light side and dark side if I'm not mistaken - pretty sure Kyle Katarn does this, and Revan is capable of it, but they're not "grey Force users", so much as Force users capable of using the dark side briefly without being entirely seduced by it (well, always seemed to end that way with Revan).

 

Sound about right?

This post needs to be treasured and saved.

I do what I want

- code of the grey jedi

Didn't Yoda say: "Once you start down the path, forever will it dominate your destiny" So in turn can you really go from dark to light? Anakin did, but where do you draw the line of gray?

i think Yoda was Bias as hell

This is the actual grey code from what I've seen:

 

There is no Dark Side, nor a Light Side

There is Only the Force

I will do what I must to keep the balance

The balance is what keeps me together

There is no good without evil, but evil must not be allowed to flourish

There is passion, Yet peace

Serenity, Yet emotion

Chaos, yet order

I am the wielder of the flame, the protector of balance

I am the holder of the torch, lighting the way

I am the keeper of the flame, soldier of balance

I am a guardian of balance

I am a Gray Jedi

That's just terrible fanfiction. This is the Grey Jedi code:

We cannot know with certanty if Darkside or Lightside exists.

They COULD.

But then again there COULD be a giant reptillian bird in charge of everything.

Can we be certain there isn't?

NO, so it's pointless to talk about.

From what I remember, Lucas swatted away the notion of grey jedi that bioware was trying to create in KOtOR, put his foot down and difinitively said NO, you are either dark or light, no in between. I remember this because it made me sad. ^_^

Again this old ***** ******* *** *** ******* ****** proves that he's stupid beyond belief & can't really write for **** ***** *****!

In my mind, the only grey "jedi" (but not actually a jedi) would be those operating outside of the jedi and sith. It would be someone who was a force user, but did not participate in conflicts. Would most likely live on a world where they would keep to themselves, and use their force powers to improve their livelihood. So to be a better hunter, or trader, or what have you. They would have no qualms about being angry, and would look at it like a normal person would, as something that you shouldn't always be, but not something to be hated or feared. Same with relationships, they would have nothing against being in one, but not for the passion, just because they love someone.

Really, it would just be like if an average person was a force user, but didn't use it to change their lives all too much.

They would not be part of an order, because an order implies a code of ethics, which basically must lie on one side or the other of the light or dark, depending on intents and results of actions, not principles.

So yes, there would be grey "jedi" but they really wouldn't be jedi. Just dudes who happen to be able to use the force.

I always thought the term "grey Jedi" referred to Jedi that acted outside of The Council, or at least, deviated from its words, if not their spiritual meanings. Jedi like Qui-Gon Jinn or Kyle Katarn (from what little I know of him). They're lightside users, and Jedi, but take a step back from the Order. A grey Jedi is simply a more maverick Jedi.

 

Alignment-wise, someone can have a grey morality, but it would be difficult to be a "grey" Force-user. The Force isn't something that you measure on a continuum, that is just a game mechanic introduced in RPGs. There are light side only Force powers, dark side only Force powers, and those accessible to both; but make no mistake, those accessible to both are not "grey", they're merely powers one could achieve through powerful, dark emotions (dark side) or through giving oneself to the Will of The Force (light side).

 

Certain Force users are capable of utilising both the light side and dark side if I'm not mistaken - pretty sure Kyle Katarn does this, and Revan is capable of it, but they're not "grey Force users", so much as Force users capable of using the dark side briefly without being entirely seduced by it (well, always seemed to end that way with Revan).

 

Sound about right?

This is what I think that "grey jedi" where originally meant to be in the 1st place, and I agree with what this person says.

However, Joious, I think that what you're saying is also accurate. You're saying that a force user can choose to be a normal person, and that they don't have to choose dark side or light side if they don't want to. What MyDarkSunshine is saying is that the "grey jedi" are basically maverick jedi with a grey morality who don't always follow the ways of the jedi order, or at least not by the book, or by the jedi code for that matter. I think that the idea of "grey jedi" can technically be applied to both, and I would like all of the people reading this to keep that in mind.

Well, if you want to talk about Jedi who go off to live normal lives and use the Force for every day things, look at Jolee Bindo. Even he had a couple of lightside points in the game mechanics. And he was still a good guy at heart, even though he didn't want to admit he was a Light Sider or associate himself with anythign to do with the Order. But that's a whole other discussion.

Even in normal every day life though, I think the same philosophical questions and moral struggle apply to the whole Light/Dark balance. Just because you're not throwing lightning at someone doesn't mean you're immune from Dark Side corruption - you still have to be aware of its lure in all actions, big or small.

Your reasoning is, in a rhetorical sense, only as good as the response you get from your audience. Simply saying "My reasoning is valid" is roughly as effective as a politician saying "I'm an honest man!" Be valid and it will take care of itself. Further, starting with what sounded like a condescending sigh only hurts the rest of what you intend to say, no matter how valid it might potentially be.

 

You're sounding precisely like the kind of person we've been discussing. Sure, since you pre-mentioned the labels and assumptive stereotypes, you think you can assume you're off the hook from them. Nope.

 

You mentioned the "human character" in regards to "grey jedi". You need to accept that this is meant to be space fantasy, with larger than life characters. Certainly no one would pull a Darth Vader in real life, not even with a contemporary version of modern body armor, and personally kill his own employees in his evil organization if they failed him. It's over the top, on purpose. Star Wars is meant to have these kind of characters. This really is feeble ground for the "gritty realism" fad that's overtaken so much other fiction, TV, and cinema. Really, there's so much of it out there that it's exhausting, even boring, to imagine yet another regurgitation of "no one's really a good guy or a bad guy I have to stand on my own the world is confusing and everything is grey". To me, Star Wars blended with that (as it has been in some recent EU entries) feels like oil trying to mix with water.

 

Your tone about my oh-so-horrible Socratean world says a lot more about you and your strawmanning fallacy than it says about me. I know the world's a complex, dirty place. I don't need to muddy my fiction to fit the same just to feel at home, thank you. Some people enjoy fantasy because, you know, it's fantastic.

 

The saga may "belong to everyone" but you may be surprised how many of those "everyone" that may be lost if Star Wars drags itself in the same tired gritty-realistic mud that has overtaken most of fiction, fantasy, sci-fi and otherwise. It was actually interesting at first (I was a big Firefly fan, for example, and before that, Farscape), but like anything done too much, it gets old. To draw a parallel, I know bacon's all the rage partially due to internet-based memes right now, but if every single restaurant featured bacon specials and cut out other menu items, business would actually suffer because no niche markets would be catered to, and it'd be simply a choice between bacon franchise 1, 2, 3, and 4.

 

In my opinion, a big galaxy full of huge villains and valiant heroes feels just about refreshing and welcome compared to the grime you can see wall-to-wall in almost every genre these days. Need it be here too, just to please you?

You seem to miss the point that we have went from a medium of movies to one of a computer based mmo which is about nothing but interactivity. Why don't you explore the medium and become a programmer and study that for 10 years and then tell me how that works out. apparently your logic class didn't tell you have to have knowledge of all aspects of a subject matter to correctly come to any conclusion in an arguments. It's pain in the rear of all time. It's called scope of an argument.... Now put yourself back in a more humble position and go read a really old engineering manual and study some technical subjects until you can create something and then come back into the argument and consider again what this argument encompasses.

Cause' ye already brakeded the mold of yer gersh darn theory.

The basis of the desire for dark jedi is purely the realism involved in the interaction. That is why they "badly" attempted to make SWG the ultimate story you are involved in. That is the point of an mmo and computer games in general. It's also the most complicated medium in existance. but only someone with a good math and engineering background could appreciate that. 8) Lets say it make them book writers and movie makers(ironlically only there because of engineers in the modern form) look darn right ignant. Especially if the medium in general started taking on the forms of the things it can really do.

I personally think the grey jedi is the true original jedi. And the power sucking of the council is a complete perversion. It was an order based on study and personal concience. That does not go with council of rulers..... I liked the comment about how the jedi were originially able to marry and practice dark side as well. I think the problem is basically a slow moral fall within the order on individuals(seperate from the use of the force) and the maintaining of the extreme of the original views(as I'm supposing) would have been the best solution. From my point of view the jedi council is the "sith". The only thing they accomplish is what the sith want but within the jedi order. Personally that leaves open that the fall and inbalance goes back to where it all started the order itself and makes a more complex story and a cycle of events. It created the sith and the sith, ironically, are not wrong in their motives. They are evil in a simplistic view but maybe not in a realistic view. They really were wronged and violently and continuously. They are oppressed and demonized as apposed to demons and their actions are a literal reflection of what was done against them and it never stopped. Much more real world. So basically the order had finished falling, and being tested, failed its test. The reality of the study in the force they originally sought itself and they(those who created the council) failed by seeking control over allowing all to do as they felt they needed to and growing from the experience humbly . Presuming knowledge over obtaining it and consolidating power(what we refer to as sith beleifs.) What is a belief afterall if one does not stick to it when it counts or when it is tested. In that point I view the sith as literally the manifestation of the evil of the council and would literally not exist without it and only does because of it both literally and metaphorically. Having sought power they created the consequences of it. It's a totally self created evil. And it continues until it destroys them, the creators of the problem. They are punished for their own sins not the sins of others. In this case the seeking of power by the sith is legitimate for defense and many other things and merely reflects the sins of the council more flamboyantly but less purely and only because of the continuous choices and actions of the council and things within the jedi they cause. But the true source is the creation of the council and the oppression it creates to naturally reflect their actions and bring it back against the council. All other major evils the order faces merely are a reflection of their failings. And is the cause in all cases.

In the end the arrogance the council keeps referring to in their order is the cause. And it is not the in origin from the body. It is from the head. The head of anything is always the creator and leader of the things in the body. It is the borders and reality of what it leads. So it again is a reflection of them. And the creation of the council caused this imbalance because of the nature of their action. It was literally sealed and in this case force on the order because of the creation of the governing body over the original views and the reality of making a power structure in the order that was beyond just guiding wisdom but involved force and authority again outside of natural guiding wisdom. It was the literal appropriate thing to happen, the natural consequence. And it followed them throughout their history poetically. And they fudged up every step of the way even more poetically. Making them the greatest evil and the continuous cause of the problem.

Without a dark there can be no light without a light there is no dark..? something like that. The statement of the problem right there. The light created itself. They setup their downfall right there. They created the light per say and made the contrast. they are not good but call themselves light. Their action speak louder than their words.

Maybe that needs to be analyzed against something deeper or put to more complex comparatives. But that is the best I can do right now. 8)

With that viewpoint you could also say part of Anakin being the savior involved his destroying of the jedi order and had to in order to be it's savior. In this case at the highest level of necessity and as a natural consequence of the order itself. The death of the jedi in that case was the necessity for the rebalancing. Not the sith. but happened with it technically being jedi also. A poetic reason for the sith to be self destructive and ironic they end up destroying the jedi, part of their selves. And in the end with the death of all players and the Anakin returning to the light(maybe going through hell) it was done. And with only the father and son remaining. Ironically that was the sith form of the rule of two... but anyway. You also see a little form of biblical proportions here. Father son and holy ghost/force. The casting of the devil into the pit/ palatines death. Not sure if that is a perfect reflection so you will have to look yourself. Not sure who casts it in revelations in the end. But there may be some similarities or down right usage of it as the story. though I doubt the 3 movies took the council into account. but then who knows since he said he wrote the first 3 movies first. Maybe it works out. I can't think of the information to analyze it.

Though after all this you have to see if Luke actually didn't recreate any of the original problems to bring back an imbalance. Did he reverse all of the sins of the order? That also makes ending the story with Anakins death and revival from his son Luke more convenient because you don't have to deal with those complexities.

I think it can come down to this. A moral comparison. The giving of oneself to the light side can be seen as a good thing. And may purely be. If it exists. It would be a greater guiding tool or something more complicated giving you answers. the using of the force of a tool is the using of the force is a tool. But that using of the tool can be a responsibility potentially and may be morally required. for instance some viewpoints traditionally hold the viewpoint that "God does not help those that don't help themselves." that is a statement of the necessity of doing things in the world and that you are required to and cannot be completely passive and do good and should not at the least. Who says using of the "darkside" of passion is not in part synonymous with the need of use of power like discipline. That is a naturally need for passion and control or power in the right circumstances.. Child rearing or what not. Who says the forces "darkside" was not the natural ability to use more power when needed quickly like in some of those circumstance. Something they would naturally use and need if they had continued the family structure in the order. Spare the rod spoil the child, right? From that there are a thousand endless examples you could go into in the natural world and far outside of child rearing. And I wish I could think of even one single one but I'm tired and drawing blanks mentally.

So in the end you had a bunch of idiots who decided to become monks and pull themselves away from the natural world and it's complexities and the needed lessens those bring along with moral character it provides. Kind of a stupid way to do it with great power and responsibility. The natural world provides those. Our ideas of how to live don't.