Firebrand and stormcaller are irrelevant for the discussion at hand.

 

Have you noticed it's always the three of us arguing about this stuff?

When EC HM came out in 1.2, everyone in the guild I was in was wearing rakata and augments were extremely rare, because there were no augmentation kits. EC HM is supposed to be scaled to people in full Rakata without any augments. Even then, Toth and Zorn on HM was not a great challenge. We did wipe several times, but it still was quite easy once we got used to the fight. If you are struggling with HM Toth and Zorn right now, it is your guild's problem and not the boss being too difficult. Take some responsibility for yourself and stop giving excuses. HM Toth and Zorn is one of the last fights that need a nerf, in a game where 99% of the content is easy. Edited March 12, 2013 by bbare

First of all, you say "please discuss" but then ask people who don't feel they need a nerf not to post. That's not a discussion.

 

^ This.

 

So, no, please don't nerf it. Stop dumbing stuff down because people can't clear it. Lost island was a fun challenge for a while, now it's been dumbed down out of recognition partly, I'm sure, due to all the whining on here.

 

We wiped on HM T&Z numerous times in the past but it just makes victory sweeter when you clear it. Now it’s faceroll. If you don’t have the time, inclination, patience or skill might I suggest the obvious alternative: story mode.

Step 1: Buy RotHC

Step 2: Level to 55

Step 3: Faceroll HM Z&T

 

This.

 

This is already a built in (albeit indirect) nerf coming with 2.0. There's no need to further nerf the mechanics which would put this fight on par with SM EV.

Firebrand and stormcaller are irrelevant for the discussion at hand.

 

Not really. It doesn't make sense to say the fight is too difficult without determining what the correct level of difficulty is. Judging by FB/SC and Kephess, Zorn and Toth is at a good level of difficulty for the operation, possibly even too easy.

Our guild is fairly new and not enough 50s yet so any endgame I do is pug. I cant help you with how to nerf, but if I can pug EC for comms run and beat up to the Tanks then I dont think it needs it. Im still new to high lvl raid and if pugs can beat EC comms run it kinda says not very difficult.

If any thing the whole game needs nerfing with an in game voice comm. I think that would make the HARDER content much more doable for all.

DarthFamine, a free tip for you:

Stop to mouseclick and keyboard turn and you're on good way to beat them.

 

Also, if you're not full rakata yet better do EV/KP HM and ECSM to gear up. If you are then you must have some BH items already (rain of bh coms ftw). It's hard to even imagine how people in BH gear can wipe there, sorry but it seems the problem is lack of skill of your guild not the content difficulty. So stop asking for nerf when most of the people geared enough for the content have no problems with it. Sad to say but L2P.

Edited March 12, 2013 by Koordynator

Firebrand and stormcaller are irrelevant for the discussion at hand.

 

Have you noticed it's always the three of us arguing about this stuff?

 

Except they're not irrelevant, because you have to take the difficulty of the raid as a whole.

 

Raids where the first boss is much easier than the rest are improperly balanced and cause problems. How is it irrelevant when you're supposed to go from one boss fight to the other in the same exact gear, with the same exact skill level, in the very same night?

 

My guild was able to take down Zorn and Toth fairly regularly (without using the Berserk trick) for AGES before we were able to do Stormcaller and Firebrand. If you can't do the first one, you're not going to be able to do the rest of it.

 

And yeah, I've noticed we post in some of the same threads. :-)

Take it at face value, I do feel that alot of it is too difficult for the casual player. Seeing the nerfs coming to lost island in 2.0 it would seem that I was borne out on that point. Hard modes should be hard, not impossible. Nightmare modes should be completely unforgiving. But that's another discussion. I really do feel that this encounter does throw a bit too much at the players and should be nerfed.

 

But not into oblivion.

 

Hence my desire for feedback.

 

You say "casual" player and ill tell you something that is exactly what sm ops are for. They have the exact same story and everything so you don't miss out on anything how about that. If you want to step up to real raiding and do the hm and nim versions quit your whining and learn the mechanics or don't raid! it is that simple.

 

Edit: Also these fights are not hard at all in hm as long as you learn and stay true to the mechanics of the fight. If you think this fights hard wait until you get to kephass which is also extremely easy on hm if you compare it to its nim version! Its all about the mechanics that is what raiding is all about. If you want to over ride mechanics then stick to story mode.

Edited March 14, 2013 by Daelars

Did they stealth buffed Toth and Zorn recently or was my group just way too tired today? I am a bit surprised, we have killed them both now a few times without problem but today we tried for an hour before we gave up. People were suddenly dying like crazy and the tanks said they had some weird debuffs, lightning around their feet or something. Not that I'm complaining, not at all, just a bit surprised.

And Toth was a bit buggy, too, he didn't jump when he was supposed to, leading to the death of a tank.

(And yes, we did checke if we were accidentally doing NiM, we weren't!)

Edited March 13, 2013 by abokado

If you don't feel that they need a nerf then move along, the purpose of the thread is how to, not does it need it.

 

"I want a hugbox. The hubris of people who would dare disagree with me gives me indigestion."

Proceeding from the premise that they need a slight nerf, my challenge is this. How can you nerf them slightly while preserving the challenge level of the encounter.

 

If you don't feel that they need a nerf then move along, the purpose of the thread is how to, not does it need it.

 

My best suggestion would be to nerf or remove completely some of the mechanics. perhaps the yellow circle.

or maybe lower the damage they do slightly, say 10% over the course of the fight.

 

though that might be too much.

 

Suggestions?

 

My guild has two active raid teams. The second have just recently downed HM Zorn and Toth and because of that first take down every time we do EC HM we take them down one shot. In terms of the rest of the raid we have downed the tanks but not Vorgath yet. Anyway back to the point. Do I think they are too hard? No. Do I think they need to be nerfed? Absolutely not.

I do feel that alot of it is too difficult for the casual player.

 

Story Mode is for the casual player.

 

The "casual player" is concerned with leveling, storyline content, seeing all the flashpoints and their stories, cinematics, etc. Story Mode Operations are perfect for, and DESIGNED for the casual player. (At least at this point in the game.)

 

It used to be, that Story Mode was a stepping stone... a learning tool so you could move up to Hard Mode... But Bioware has nerfed most of the Story Mode Ops to the point that they are a social event moreso than a launching pad to get into Hard Mode.

 

Hard Mode/Nightmare Mode Explosive Conflict is NOT designed for the casual player, and nor should it be. Just like Hard Mode Terror From Beyond is not designed for the casual player.

 

Example: Both my wife and I play SWTOR. I love endgame, min-maxing, and the challenges presented by the most difficult content... She enjoys playing socially, leveling, some story mode ops. The premise of logging on, and wiping for 2 hours on a raid boss in HM/NiM EC/TfB (read: progression raiding) is NOT something she finds enjoyable, and doesn't care that she will never get native Dread Guard gear, and it doesn't bother her one bit. She fully comprehends that it would be totally ludicrous of her to expect to be handed/able to complete with ease, the hardest content of the game, as a casual player who doesn't even know what a "parse" is. This doesn't make her a BAD player, it makes her a casual player who is finding her fun in game in her own way, which is different than my fun. We have overlaps, but that stops at HM/NiM EC and HM TfB.

 

Casual players can obtain a full set of Black Hole with Campaign armorings for set bonus, simply by doing dailies, weeklies and story mode operations. Dumbing down ANY of the top tier HM/NiM content to satisfy the "casual player" is a fatal mistake.

 

TL;DR - You are either a casual player or a progression/min-maxer. There is not really any middle ground between the two, and any casual player who thinks that the content should be dumbed down so they can easily get the "Dread Entity" title or the Hard Mode Aratech Nightscythe speeder without putting the time/effort that the more hardcore players did to get it, are being unreasonable and it's BAD FOR THE GAME.

 

FYI - "alot" is two words. -> a lot

 

One last thing.... Who remembers HM EV/KP a year ago? Seeing someone on Fleet in full Rakata would make you do a double-take. Because that content was HARD. And everyone was doing it in Columi gear. The casual player was NOT downing Soa or Karagga in Hard Mode..... These days, everyone can get 61/63 gear from dailies/weeklies/GTN and go into HM EC with the gear (or better) that drops from it. So if you can't down HM EC, and you are in full 61s.... nerfing the content isn't going to fix your "problem".

Edited March 15, 2013 by Ocho-Quatro

If you don't feel that they need a nerf then move along, the purpose of the thread is how to, not does it need it.

 

So you don't want any different opinions in your thread?

Hard Mode/Nightmare Mode Explosive Conflict is NOT designed for the casual player, and nor should it be. Just like Hard Mode Terror From Beyond is not designed for the casual player.

Guess this is hard to wrap my head around, I've done HM EC now on my main and 2 alts, I have done HM TfB on my main and 1 alt. I have done 2 bosses in NiM EC, so I am not a casual player. hmmm still feel pretty casual

 

@OP - I think HM Zorn and Toth should be nerfed by not nerfing it. You will feel the same once your group figures out all the mechanics. The fight is extremely easy once everyone is on the same page, just like every fight in the game (or any game), plus you get the satisfaction that your group overcame its difficulty.

 

Our group had extreme difficulty on Operator IX in HM TfB, now I laugh about it because the fight may be the easiest in HM TfB, but at the time it was extremely frustrating, but we overcame.

...

 

@OP - I think HM Zorn and Toth should be nerfed by not nerfing it. You will feel the same once your group figures out all the mechanics. The fight is extremely easy once everyone is on the same page, just like every fight in the game (or any game), plus you get the satisfaction that your group overcame its difficulty.

 

....

<3

 

Forsooth

they seems fine to me..

Proceeding from the premise that they need a slight nerf, my challenge is this. How can you nerf them slightly while preserving the challenge level of the encounter.

 

If you don't feel that they need a nerf then move along, the purpose of the thread is how to, not does it need it.

 

My best suggestion would be to nerf or remove completely some of the mechanics. perhaps the yellow circle.

or maybe lower the damage they do slightly, say 10% over the course of the fight.

 

though that might be too much.

 

Suggestions?

 

I'm sure this was mentioned by another poster, but NO. Why? Zorn and Toth are sooooo easy to beat. If you are having problems, most of it has to do with the idea of Tank Swaping during the fight(you DO NOT need to swap the entire team, just the Tanks). If the Tanks cannot hold aggro, you are going to have ZERO chance on this fight, because when Zorn and Toth get together, you're done.... The other issue is the healers not being able to keep pace with the fight.

 

Also, your teams need to watch for the ground spike markers. Remember: Circle on Ground = Bad. All you have to do is watch for and walk out of the circles. The spike will not damage you or not damage you much if it does hit.