So you get some weird LFM on the fleet.

 

First up, the single DPS looking for the entire raid, but mentions full run. How do you know the other 15 you'll find can manage a full run. For DP do you have two tanks that know what they are doing and a kiter that knows what they are doing? In TFB do the DPS know what to do or the tanks? You don't know if they do, you're pugging the entire raid!

 

You're not LFM DP Full Run 2T 4H 9DPS, you're s single DPS LFG!

 

Don't know why it annoys me so much, but any time I've joined such a pug it's invariably a failure.

 

Second up is 'must be geared, know tactics' for SM raids. What exactly is 'geared'? Because if you look at the tooltips for the missions for SM, you need 156. That's nothing. You'll have about 24k health and that seems to get people kicked? Why? It could be an alt and a very knowledgeable player. SM are gearing and learning runs. 'Know tactics' annoys me as well. Instruct them, teach them and you produce more raiders. Don't have time for that? Gonna QQ at the first wipe? Then you're probably not in the game for the fun and are maybe obsessed by gear, gear and more gear.

 

I do a lot of late night OPs on the Red Eclipse. I always make a point of saying gear and tactics not an issue. I always have successful raids. People should be more open and forgiving.

Edited June 5, 2014 by Maldorans

So basically you want a ton of players just spamming fleet with DPS LFG instead of trying to form a group themselves?

 

Some people may not have the patience or the ability to spend as much time as you do with explaining tactics and wiping, maybe they just wanna go into the raid, kill all bosses off and get out. To then ensure that players who join the group know the basic tactics and has pretty good gear to make up for mistakes does not seem particularly strange. Edited June 5, 2014 by RikuvonDrake

So you get some weird LFM on the fleet.

 

First up, the single DPS looking for the entire raid, but mentions full run. How do you know the other 15 you'll find can manage a full run. For DP do you have two tanks that know what they are doing and a kiter that knows what they are doing? In TFB do the DPS know what to do or the tanks? You don't know if they do, you're pugging the entire raid!

 

You're not LFM DP Full Run 2T 4H 9DPS, you're s single DPS LFG!

 

Don't know why it annoys me so much, but any time I've joined such a pug it's invariably a failure.

 

No mate. He isn't L(ooking)F(or a)G(roup). He is L(ooking)F(or)M(ore). Every pugrun will start with 1 guy deciding to organize an ops. My feelings are quite the opposite of yours I think.

This DPS is making an effort to make a team instead of passivly waiting till someone else decides to pull a group together. About the quality of the pugs? Well it always is a big question for DP if the group is gonna make it 4/5 and even bigger a question 5/5. But this is regardless of whether he is making a group or joining one.

In short: I'm sorry but you will find no sympathy here for this one.

 

Second up is 'must be geared, know tactics' for SM raids. What exactly is 'geared'? Because if you look at the tooltips for the missions for SM, you need 156. That's nothing. You'll have about 24k health and that seems to get people kicked? Why? It could be an alt and a very knowledgeable player. SM are gearing and learning runs. 'Know tactics' annoys me as well. Instruct them, teach them and you produce more raiders. Don't have time for that? Gonna QQ at the first wipe? Then you're probably not in the game for the fun and are maybe obsessed by gear, gear and more gear.

 

I do a lot of late night OPs on the Red Eclipse. I always make a point of saying gear and tactics not an issue. I always have successful raids. People should be more open and forgiving.

 

Just for this I made a toon called PugsloveHP. Its meant as a lighthearted educational toon with about 48k HP when she hits lv55. FYI, its a commando DPS.

Anyways ... gearwise I agree with you but hey ... a lot of people are just not seeing it. They look at HP. I got kicked out with a gearappropiate 20k HP sniper (had a very good mainhand to offset the lower mods). The moment I rejoined with the gear from my gunslinger macewindy I got called out for lootninja who wore lower gear on purpose .....

 

Tacticwise I do agree people SHOULD know tactics. With the abundance of guides both in written form on swtor and other sites like dulfy or youtube there is NO reason whatsoever to not know tactics.

I have seen only a few people when doing pugs who said they were 1st timers but have looked up guides and videos. THATS the attitude. If you want to be carried like that you should join a guild who can provide it for you. If you can't join a guild than I suggest you read dulfy and/or watch youtube videos.

 

FYI. SM runs are not primarily meant as gearing runs. Back in the old days we had N(ormal)M(ode), H(ard)M(ode) and Ni(ghtmare)M(ode). NM got changed to S(tory)M(ode) so anyone who wanted to just enjoy the story could do the content. The focus was to make it so that more people could clear content. Nowadays the endgame SM opses are way easier than the NM opses when Rakata (58/140) was the best available so I guess that bioware has achieved her goal.

So basically you want a ton of players just spamming fleet with DPS LFG instead of trying to form a group themselves?

 

 

Wouldn't that be awesome? The general chat becomes one big pool of dps to grab from! and if they are impatient, then just kick and throw your arm in the dps pool again for a new one

 

The Red Eclipse dps pool, can we get copyright on that one

Some people may not have the patience or the ability to spend as much time as you do with explaining tactics and wiping, maybe they just wanna go into the raid, kill all bosses off and get out. To then ensure that players who join the group know the basic tactics and has pretty good gear to make up for mistakes does not seem particularly strange.

 

Tactics take two second, I rarely wipe. So...

So you get some weird LFM on the fleet.

First up, the single DPS looking for the entire raid, but mentions full run. How do you know the other 15 you'll find can manage a full run. For DP do you have two tanks that know what they are doing and a kiter that knows what they are doing? In TFB do the DPS know what to do or the tanks? You don't know if they do, you're pugging the entire raid!

You're not LFM DP Full Run 2T 4H 9DPS, you're s single DPS LFG!

 

For me this is a single DPS, willing to organize a pug OP. This means willing to take responsibility. Explain takts, explain loot rules.

If it is LFG it will be the opposite - i want to join group that anybody else takes care of.

"full run" ofc reasonable as well, he says in advance he needs people willing to do full run. When i join pug groups i always want to know if it is weekly or full or 1 boss or 3+ bosses

 

As for the other stuff i agree with you.

And the rage continues ..

Oi ..... can we keep it polite Ehbuse?

@Mal: Its ok mate, I haven't seen any raging from you till provoked. Don't fall for the trolling mal.

Oi ..... can we keep it polite Ehbuse?

@Mal: Its ok mate, I haven't seen any raging from you till provoked. Don't fall for the trolling mal.

 

 

Fair point

OP, I think you're overthinking things way too much.

 

Like it's been pointed out, many times it just starts by exactly one guy/gal, who doesn't wait for others to start it. That's commedable I think. I imagine you only want to see the "ads" on fleet only when there's only few spots left which means a short wait until actually it starts. We all do, but someone gotta start it somewhere and sometimes it means is not so convenient and one has to be a bit patient. Gold spammers, troll beggars and Hodors will have share the spot on fleet chat.

 

How you do know the other 15 will manage/will do a full run ? You don't. No one does. You don't have any control over the others and their actual intentions of doing the full run or not. But you can still aim for that

 

Be geared ? The issue is too long to have it discussed on fleet chat. If someone asks for "geared" and I show up just freshed out of Oricon with 26k hp I know someone might say something. If I have 33k then nobody will say anything unless I have the wrong mainstat. Personallly, I would prefer not saying anything about gear (and decide case by case ) or asking a minimun number of hp, so there is no wondering about it.

 

As for the for "know tacts" bit not sure what to think. In your first paragraph, you're saying the s/he, the recruiter, can't actually know if the tanks know what to do for example, but then you have issues with this knowledge being required, which is as much one can do when you pug in order to have at least a small degree of certainty for a full clear.

 

If someone starts recruiting for an op from scratch, which is alone by themselves, let them be.

OP, I think you're overthinking things way too much.

 

Like it's been pointed out, many times it just starts by exactly one guy/gal, who doesn't wait for others to start it. That's commedable I think. I imagine you only want to see the "ads" on fleet only when there's only few spots left which means a short wait until actually it starts. We all do, but someone gotta start it somewhere and sometimes it means is not so convenient and one has to be a bit patient. Gold spammers, troll beggars and Hodors will have share the spot on fleet chat.

 

How you do know the other 15 will manage/will do a full run ? You don't. No one does. You don't have any control over the others and their actual intentions of doing the full run or not. But you can still aim for that

 

Be geared ? The issue is too long to have it discussed on fleet chat. If someone asks for "geared" and I show up just freshed out of Oricon with 26k hp I know someone might say something. If I have 33k then nobody will say anything unless I have the wrong mainstat. Personallly, I would prefer not saying anything about gear (and decide case by case ) or asking a minimun number of hp, so there is no wondering about it.

 

As for the for "know tacts" bit not sure what to think. In your first paragraph, you're saying the s/he, the recruiter, can't actually know if the tanks know what to do for example, but then you have issues with this knowledge being required, which is as much one can do when you pug in order to have at least a small degree of certainty for a full clear.

 

If someone starts recruiting for an op from scratch, which is alone by themselves, let them be.

 

I agree with some of what you say. I did say in my opening post that I didn't know why it got me annoyed.

 

Also, if it's a single tank that starts a pug, I find I have no issue with that whatsoever. It only annoys me when it's a single DPS. A single DPS who demands tactics and gear while pugging the entire raid. The phrase 'beggars can't be choosers' comes to mind. I have a guild I run things with, but for my alst who cant be on at the same time, I need to pug. I dont know why it bugs me, but it certainly does.

So then only tanks can start raids in your eyes. You must be a tank on your main

So basically you want a ton of players just spamming fleet with DPS LFG instead of trying to form a group themselves?

 

 

Instead of 6 solo DPS all trying to start the same pug OP. 12 tanks and 24 healers on the fleet willing to pug at a given time are few and far between.

So... a tank can start a DP PuG can he? But not a DPS? Something about tanking and kiting...

 

A tank doesn't know how well the other tank's gonna be. Or if the kiting DPS is gonna move enough. He's gonna know about as much as a tank would about his group.

 

Why is a DPS looking for a group, not starting his own group? Who starts that group the DPS is looking for? Sometimes you have to take the courage and actually lead an op. By the tricky bosses you'll know how all of your team are doing.

 

Also, if it's a single tank that starts a pug, I find I have no issue with that whatsoever. It only annoys me when it's a single DPS. A single DPS who demands tactics and gear while pugging the entire raid. The phrase 'beggars can't be choosers' comes to mind. I have a guild I run things with, but for my alst who cant be on at the same time, I need to pug. I dont know why it bugs me, but it certainly does.

 

Cos the tank's the one all the enemies are on? Cos he's the one with the most HP? A tank demanding tactics and gear you have no issue with...?

 

Explain this please? The fact DPS are the simplest to find? Why not make a healer the leader? He's the one who's gonna be keeping the people who suck alive.

So... a tank can start a DP PuG can he? But not a DPS? Something about tanking and kiting...

 

A tank doesn't know how well the other tank's gonna be. Or if the kiting DPS is gonna move enough. He's gonna know about as much as a tank would about his group.

 

Why is a DPS looking for a group, not starting his own group? Who starts that group the DPS is looking for? Sometimes you have to take the courage and actually lead an op. By the tricky bosses you'll know how all of your team are doing.

 

 

 

Cos the tank's the one all the enemies are on? Cos he's the one with the most HP? A tank demanding tactics and gear you have no issue with...?

 

Explain this please? The fact DPS are the simplest to find? Why not make a healer the leader? He's the one who's gonna be keeping the people who suck alive.

 

Tanks contoll the flow of fights. The pace of the raid.

 

Anyway, already said this. DPS are ten a penny. Tanks and healers are not. When you have 6 solo DPS all trying to pug the same raid, you end up with 6 raids that end up not starting. As they only have 1 tank and 2 heals. So does the other raid group. Now if a tank started that, you're halfway there to the hardest part of getting two tanks on a busy, tankless server.

 

Each to thier own. I don't know how many times I've said in this thread I don't know why it bugs me. I know that it does though.

 

But continue to rant at me..............

Edited June 5, 2014 by Maldorans

It doesnt matter what role the char is leading the group if that person knows what they are doing, can explain what to do clearly, and the rest of the raid is willing to listen and learn and are at least competent.

 

Unfortunately, that last bit is the big hang up.

 

It shows up most clearly on tanks because their job is a straight, binary pass/fail. They either do it right, or typically the entire raid dies. Its a lot harder to tell if a dps who is sitting there whaling on the boss is doing their job properly or not. There are definitely ways to do it, but they are all far less obvious than a mechanic failing because the boss wasnt moved or the tank losing aggro and sitting there impotently watching the boss murder the raid group one by one.

if i'm looking for pugs i just stare at gen chat for a while and start one myself if i see no lfm but enough lfg.

 

said so..raid leading, even if it's story mode i'll switch to tank or healer if i need to. tactics will be explained to first timers and undergeared players kicked after a good old inspect. i don't mind 156 unaugmented or blackmarket..those are fine for SM..just i don't like 140 hilts on dps/healers or such underperforming gear.

 

first timers need to say so and i'll briefly explain tactics at bosses, with easing schems like marking a dps to follow or giving announcements during the fight. everybody needs to learn..and it would be better to read around some guide, but again sm is so easy.

 

i didn't remember people giving up in a sm pug i lead..maybe someone leaving but that happens in smooth OPdps runs.

 

i've 12 chars on the red eclipse so i know well that habitat..

When you have 6 solo DPS all trying to pug the same raid, you end up with 6 raids that end up not starting. As they only have 1 tank and 2 heals. So does the other raid group.

Doesn't make sense. If one dps is advertising for a group, and another dps comes to the fleet and wants to raid, why would he/she start a separate group, rather than join the one already being advertised?

What I never understood was "GROUP LF 2 TANKS 4 HEALS 9 DPS" types of LFG.

 

Basic math maybe? I mean, if you're really a one-man-group, surely you can obliterate the ops by yourself. It worked well enough for John Rambo.

It's really just turned into a stereotype that tanks are leaders for various reasons... I like how Hatred's GM often is leading the op on his non-tanks. Makes a change.

It's really just turned into a stereotype that tanks are leaders for various reasons... I like how Hatred's GM often is leading the op on his non-tanks. Makes a change.

 

This ^^ I have never understood why is Tank automatically leader. I gladly follow lead of nice, experienced Tank, but if Tank is first-timer etc. It's better to let DPS or healer leads

Tank is automatically the leader in Group Finder Flashpoints and easymode operations you get from the same Group Finder. In those cases, it is up to the tank to inform the team whether or not they're capable of leading the team. I for one do not discuss who's leading the pug team when I'm tanking. There's really no need for it and the only thing where a democracy is needed is the decision whether or not the group will be doing the bonus. Once that is established, it's Follow the Tank and Enjoy the Ride.

 

In more serious settings such as latest operations - the raid leader is usually the leader of the operations team or someone with an "officer" rank within the guild. Most often a rdps because of better perspective.

 

Nothing complicated or revolutionary, right?

Edited June 9, 2014 by slafko

Tank is automatically the leader in Group Finder Flashpoints and easymode operations you get from the same Group Finder.

 

I love you slafko, but I gotta call balderdash on this statement. I play several tanks and often do GF FPs. I am also often not the leader. I know this for a fact because I always am trying to do /rc before fights and can't.

I didn't mean leader as the actual dude that GF randomly designates as the leader and puts a star on their name. I meant it in the sense of doing the actual leading - setting the pace, deciding the tactics and guiding the team.

 

As for flashpoints, if anyone has any doubts about who's leading the team when I'm tanking, they learn really, really fast. Some even learn by getting killed repeatedly, but they do learn.

 

And why the hell would you /rc in flashpoints? Enough time is wasted on gathering materials and looting drops. Force Speed and Rocket Boost the rest of the instance. The entire flashpoint should be one giant continuous pull.

Edited June 10, 2014 by slafko