As an outsider, I found this line to be worth something to comment on;

 

I read through this thread and this is exactly the mentality I was looking for in my search. I posted a few days ago concerning PvP here and received some messages and PMs as well. You all seem to have a great community here compared to other servers. Even the one I am on, I would not dare label as ideal.

 

Sure POT5 has some good PvP but I believe that not all "best pvp action" resides strictly on a PvP only server. I liked your ideas of a workshop and just community building in general. I am not from this server nor do I play on it but have been curious about xfering a toon or two over if not just rolling a toon here to play and threads like this are a good sign for someone like me.

 

Even if there is some "trolling" going on here, it's modest at best in comparison to some of the stuff I've read before from my server and have enjoyed reading through the responses here. Good luck to you all as a community and perhaps I'll end up seeing you all in game soon. Take care!

Hello and thanks for contributing Master_Nate. The Ebon Hawk community certainly isn't perfect by any means, but I do believe we have a lot of good folks here and I'd like to see that flourish and grow rather than shrink. I do agree that trolling in general likely isn't nearly as bad as say a PvP server such as POT5, but I do believe we have an obligation to try and moderate ourselves if it gets out of hand.

In general though, for me at least, I'd like to see a constituted effort to improve relations with all and definitely provide tips and advice for those who want to improve in PvP. If there is enough interest for a workshop, that is something I believe everybody on the server should have an interest in. I'd like to see The Ebon Hawk as welcoming, friendly, competitive, and fun as we can possibly make it for current members and potential new ones.

The problem with a workshop is that it'd largely be preaching to the choir. How many of those 'dreadful pugs' do you suppose visit the official forums? Unofficial forums? Have well connected acquaintances who will clue them in?

 

Yeah. None of the above is a safe assumption. So that means we'd have to advertise in game, but how many people do you know that have general and/or PvP chat off? So to maximize attendance, we'd have to spam warzone ops chat, which I'm suuuure will earn us lots of friends. xD

 

Doesn't necessarily mean it wouldn't be worth it. Many of those who'd show are probably of that middle tier variety who are looking for what gives people that bit of extra edge that grants the illusion of invincibility. (Think Mario Kart star item? lulz) But since that sort of workshop would be touching on more advanced techniques, it'd become something completely different from what you're proposing.

 

Now, to be honest, I think the problem with PvPers these days isn't the MMO, or the 'hardcore' or 'dedicated' PvPers. It's the fresh-faced players of the new generation who don't have the remotest clue what being 'thick skinned' means. Most of our problems wouldn't happen or even be problems if we all grew a pair and donned some thornmail (just search youtube for thornmail, you'll find good stuff).

 

As a final note, I'm not encouraging or endorsing legitimate harassment cases. They happen, it's bad, and as I understand it, one happened fairly recently. But other problems like the QQ and general ************ wouldn't be an issue if humans stopped breeding these wussy, pansy-assed "I'm a special snowflake!" scrubs.

Hello Aikiyc and thank you for posting. You are absolutely right in the fact that a workshop isn't something that will be simple or easy. People will inevitably do what they want and there is only so much we can do to encourage them to participate in this potential workshop. That being said, I believe the gesture of it and putting out the effort goes a long way in showing people that we as a server do care.

You certainly offer great advice that we do have an ignore feature and reporting is also essential to dismantling trolls and harassers. That being said I do believe we should still strive for certain principles and not just let this kind of bad behavior run rampant on our server. Most things worth doing rarely ever come easy. That doesn't make them any less necessary.

On top of that as good as some of the server premades are, they're not nearly as hard to face as the premades of old made up of guilds like Hex or Gamempireilla.

Pretty much this. When we use to PUG against the old guards a-team super que you had almost zero chance of winning. I have fun going against the super ques that are out there now. Don't always win but they are competitive. It's an MMO, friends are going to group with each other. It happens.

Regarding trolls: it sucks, but trolls will be trolls. Either find creative ways to counter-troll them and laugh it off or just throw them on ignore. They are not part of the community and they do not ruin the community, they're just part of the scenery.

Regarding organized help for bad players: This was tried some time ago, and guess what: nobody ever came forward for help. Why? As some have noted, it is the ones that need help the most that won't seek it. So before you all go put a bunch of effort into some sort of clinic thingy, let me just suggest that you don't waste your time. People who are motivated to get better will find a way to. But for the rest, there is no way to help people who don't want to help themselves. For these people that make PVP incredibly frustrating for the rest of us with their badness, its their $15 and they play to relax and if going in and spamming saber strike is the maximum effort they want put into this game, who are we to force them to play SWTOR like a competitive sport?

How to make a healthy community? Sadly, it requires guilds to admit mistakes and certain pugs to suck it up and improve, both of which are unlikely because ego is a strong and mystical force. But lets say we are in fantasy land here, where everyone will play with a flawless moral compass and everyone cares and pugs actually want to get better....

Guilds,

If you want to queue with 8 teammates, make an effort to queue ranked against other 8 man teams. GO TALK to to other guilds, let them know you have 8 and see if they want to queue. I'll reiterate it again, 8-man teams have no place in regular warzones. This makes people hate your guild. "Trying to snipe another superqueue" is a silly excuse. Log over to the other side and tell that guild to queue ranked. If they won't do it, then let the community lose respect for them, shun them, etc. This is not a situation in which to fight fire with fire because if you do, now you have 2 superqueues going which, realistically, aren't going to fight each other very often and so you just end up widening the gap and increasing the animosity between serious pvp'ers and non-serious pvp'ers.

If you have 8 on, and there is nobody to queue ranked with or people just feel like playing casually, thats okay. Queue small groups, and don't make it into some big deal about trying to get everyone in the same match. 4 highly skilled players working with and instructing their pugs should be able to win a game. There is no reason to ever leave a match because your other group is on the other side. This really screws people over and makes people hate your guild.

Guild members have to all take responsibility for other guild members' actions and be prepared to be associated with anything they do. Don't have a-holes in your guild. This makes people hate your guild and causes your members to suffer unnecessary abuse for things they didn't do.

Have respect for people outside your guild. Just because a player isn't in your guild, or plays solo, or made a silly mistake, or is new to PVP, doesn't automatically mean they are trash. A little respect goes a long way.

If you do things to make people hate your guild, then you have no right to call out others for things that are done to your guild as a result.

Pugs,

4-man groups are part of the game. This aspect of the game is not going to change, regardless of how much you whine about it. Either 1. find some friends, 2. deal with it, master your class, and learn to love being a solo player (aka making people cry when they're beat by a "nobody"), or 3. don't pvp in this game.

8-man groups in regular warzones are lame, yes. But there is a difference between people doing this on purpose and people from larger guilds who just have more than one group going and because of the small population of the server, these groups have a decent chance of getting into the same game. Don't get all butthurt if it happens to you on occasion.

And pugs, you need to have respect too. If you play solo, it is your responsibility to improve your level of play and make sure you're giving 110% in every warzone. Dailies and questing are the only time its appropriate to space out and hit stuff. PVP, like high-tier PVE, requires you to actually pay attention and put some effort in. Because there is no way to kick underperforming players in PVP, you will be rightly harassed and abused in other ways if you disrespect the institution of PVP and those who dedicate their gaming lives to it.

If you are a bad pug, i.e. you don't admit your mistakes, don't make a continuous effort to improve, and treat PVP like a lulzy minigame, then you have no right to call out guilds who tell you you're bad and queue in groups to mitigate the effects of people like you.

TL;DR HOW TO IMPROVE COMMUNITY (not enough tl;dr's in this thread)

Guilds - don't make people hate your guild, take responsibility for your tag, and respect others.

Pugs - give it your all, be a good team player, and respect others.

While I find it highly amusing so many people took Te'quila's post as seriously as they did, perhaps I can shed some more light here and say a few things. Râlen while you say you want to improve the community and prevent it from "dying" or deteriorating any further, that should include the Rated or Ranked community, and along with that I'm personally of the opinion that you if claim you are a PvP guild, your sights should be set on running and playing Ranked Warzones. You and your guild-mate Zortibus have made some points, but first let me add some backstory here.

 

Before Server Transfers, Rated Warzones were alive and well, thanks to many guilds, due to most of the core of <Project Mayhem> leaving the game earlier we were not able to participate due to our numbers. It took awhile for us the rebuild and around the time Server Transfers were coming, we had gained quite a few new players, enough to finally set our sights on Rateds when Server Transfers dropped. Fast forward a bit to where we were informed that our friends in<Inconceivable> were queuing every Monday and Wednesday night, we were finally able to get some games in with our new group. It was fantastic at first, and we grew and gained more members while loosing a few. Fast forward some more a month or two, and it was just us <Project Mayhem> and <Inconceivable> queuing repeatedly beating the snot out of each other in the hopes that more guilds would take the opportunity to join us, and that would we have more variety in the queue.

 

And some guilds did join us, and it was great. Fast forward to about now, and do you know what the Rated queue is currently? It's just us <Atrocity> most nights alone in the queue, waiting for <Nemesis> and <Regulators> who thankfully queue when they can, I'm not entirely sure what <Inconceivable> has been up to this week, but they are probably busy with other things. Now, during all of this, the guild <Republic> has been repeatedly running 8 Man Regulars, but we as a guild have only heard of them queuing ranked once, after Server Transfers hit against <Inconceivable>. I don't pretend to know why a guild would only queue regulars and never ranked, but I do know that the schedule has been noted by members of your guild. And so in these nights alone in the queue, we duel against each other in the Dromund Kaas Spaceport. And then when we decide we're not going to get a Rated pop that night, we end up "Superqueuing" for the night, because that's what we play Rateds for, to play as a team of 8 against another team of 8 and test our group's skill against theirs. Pugs may not fill the latter of that, but we can fill the former, and so we do, and we attempt to snipe any guild queuing at the time.

 

 

As far as the thread goes with players harassing others. This will always happen in MMMO'S, no matter the game you play, you can take steps to prevent it as a community and reporting does help, but don't expect it not to be there. Another thing is that certain members of your guild <Republic> have been known to be very reacting to this kind of thing, if you give someone a reaction to this sort of behavior you are feeding it. As many people have started before, some people need to grow thicker skin, that's not to say let it happen however. As far as this Workshop idea of yours, these players need to WANT to learn to get better, as your guild-mate Zortibus pointed out, premades have been around in other games, they have been around since beta. That's how it was started, that's how people got better, they wanted to increase their chance of winning, so they queued up with people who they knew were capable. The tools to become capable are all there, learn your class, look at your talent tree, merely looking over any skills of any class will give you an indication of the intended rotation or basis of such a thing. How hard is it to take a look at any other site with a Talent Calculator and look at the other classes talents, or search for abilities? I say it again, the tools are already there, but people have to WANT it.

 

I apologize for the monstrous post, and I don't pretend to think that I speak for everyone in <Atrocity> but I do feel this is the majority's feelings. Hopefully this can shed some light on where we are coming from here. I wish you luck with any current or future endeavors you may undertake.

Hello and thank you for posting Karkarn. As was pointed out already, unfortunately 8v8 Ranked Warzones will not be existing much longer. My guild used to be extremely active in Ranked Warzones, especially before server transfers and the Free To Play model. Unfortunately, as was the case for many other guilds, we lost a lot of core players over the months and don't house the numbers we used to. This is largely why we have not been able to host a presence in Ranked Warzones. It's not because we don't want to, but rather because we are incapable of it. Thankfully this will be rectified by removing 8v8 and implementing 4v4 Arenas, which will be more accessible for my guild and many others.

In regards to more recent times, while many seem to like to accuse <Republic> of running "super queues" all of the time, rarely do we ever actually have two full premades. On a given night we will have a premade and perhaps a couple other players, but rarely will we have eight players, and rarely will it be a decent composition for any competitive PvP. I digress though. Republic is generally most active during the weekends, given we aren't doing any progression raiding. Mondays and Wednesdays don't work for most folks in our guild, especially when it's late and members have work in the morning the next day. This is why I'm personally looking forward to Arenas as they will be more accessible for all guilds and should be much more active with a larger pool of guilds.

I agree that players need to be motivated to improve at PvP. That was certainly my case when I started playing Star Wars Galaxies many years ago. I was a newcomer to PvP and didn't understand how MMORPGs functioned. It took diligence, patience, lots of time, and lots of effort to learn the game, the classes, and how to be competitive. This game is no different, but I feel as a community we could make that learning curve easier for those willing to go that extra mile. I truly am looking forward to 2.4, but I feel that it's good to at least recognize the increasing drama on the server and that we as a community have an obligation to at least report these offenders.

I'm not asking for comprehensive reform on everybody's part, but certainly everybody could give a little more to improve relations in their factions and guilds. We all play this game to have a good time and I believe we can come to a common understanding of how to better improve that experience for everyone.

*takes away Nomaad's popcorn* Now now, let's keep this civil.

 

In regards to your workshop idea: If you do manage to get enough people interested to make it a reality I would gladly offer assistance to those wanting to learn about node defense/stealing. Although I'm sure there are those more qualified than me to fulfill that role as well.

Hey Llama and thanks for posting. If there is enough interest in this idea, certainly we could use all the help we can get. I'd like to have a better PvP experience for all parties concerned and if there are newcomers who'd like to learn but just haven't had the tools, any and all help would be appreciated.

you seem to have a rather morbid and negative outlook in regards to PvP

I hope you didn't take this as a personal attack, and my replies below are not personal attacks, just conversation. My post was a collection of observations starting from when servers merged, all the way through server transfers, then my few weeks recently I've been spending more time on TEH again. They were not meant to be a comment on the precise current state of the server, but rather issues that seem to consistently pop up within the community from time to time. I could easily list off a bunch of great things about TEH, but that doesn't help improve the things that are less-than-ideal.

Nothing about trying to build and improve a PvP community is easy. I'm sorry your previous attempts in the past failed. However, trying to discourage others from making The Ebon Hawk a better server is somewhat counterproductive to me. I don't know you personally, but these kinds of ideas aren't built and forged over night. Obviously not everybody would be on board, but it's the initial effort and showing we are making it that would encourage some and perhaps more in the future.

You are more than welcome to try my friend, but the reason I may sound negative after looking back on all the community-building things we've tried to do is because of the backlash and apathy that we found after putting in weeks or months (yeah, not "overnight") of work for the people of this server. But hey, go prove me wrong!

I'm not sure if you realize this, but 8v8 Ranked Warzones are almost nonexistent on The Ebon Hawk. Most guilds don't have the numbers, and the few moments they are happening is at times that do not work for everybody. A cross server queue would have helped tremendously to resolve this issue, but BioWare has opted to remove the feature altogether. 8v8 Ranked Warzones is less of a community issue and more of a BioWare issue, which instead of fixing, they have decided to remove, much like Ilum.

I'm not sure if you realize this but 8v8 Ranked Warzones have been almost nonexistent since the first weeks after server merges. Even pre-2.0, pre-transfers, we had to organize and plan ranked warzones if we wanted to do 8v8 games (and we operated that way for a long time because we really wanted to play with our 8-man teams). The one guild declaring x and y are going to be ranked nights obviously doesn't work for everybody, it never did. Thats why it takes effort, good communication, and healthy guild relations to play large-group PVP on a small-PVP-population server, something that seems to be lacking right now (from what I've heard and the little I've seen) because its so much easier to say "its Bioware's fault!" and then sit with 8 in the normal queue. Not that this conversation even matters anymore since its going to be all about 4v4 within the month.

In regards to super queues in regular warzones, I can only speak for my guild, but if we have more than four guildies who want to PvP, we want everybody to be involved. The other point really is the fact that the quality of PUGs has absolutely plummeted since F2P was added. In PvP, one is only as strong as their weakest link. One bad PUG can actually ruin an entire warzone for a team if they aren't aware, calling incs, using CCs, etc. So at least from my perspective, I prefer having competent players I can depend on rather than dead weight. At the same time, I personally do not enjoy crushing PUGs. Although, most of the groups we tend to play against are imp premades anyways as they have a larger PvP player base. The Warzone Matchmaking system actually is built to match premades against each other, for those who don't know.

First of all, there is no matchmaking system. This is a myth as far as I know, and based on the numerous double-premade vs. 8 PUG same-faction games I've been a part of (which would be impossible if the system worked as you say). If you have yellow text from the devs to prove that premades intentionally get matched against each other, please link it to me.

And I know that pugs are bad, and that's why you'll always find me or a fellow group member on the node instead of a pug. We also try to give them directions and instructions, but I will almost never trust an unknown name with an important job. Its just part of the game. If you do all you can to make your pugs the best pugs they can be, treat them like human beings, and give them a reason to fight with you and not just do their own thing, losses due to one pug are pretty rare in my experience (after all, there are dumb players on both sides, and the premade on the other side might be suffering the same frustrating stupid pugs that you are). In my opinion, trying to work with pugs (or just deal with them) and having the occasional frustrating loss is worth not compromising the system of regular warzones, which to me, is intended to match up big mixed groups of people to play together and meet each other. After all, I used to be a bad pug myself and only after playing for months in the midst of excellent players and being inspired to improve did I get to where I am today. If the top players all just insulate themselves are refuse to play with people who are just getting started or need a few basic pointers (say, calling out a strat at the beginning of the warzone), then these noobs (so to speak!) are being denied the opportunity to meet and observe players better than themselves and learn something. What kind of community building is that? Just my opinion, though.

As far as actual guilds leaving warzones because they are going against fellow guildies, I have only seen that type of negative behavior from Game Genie/Empire/Guerrilla, and they are no longer part of this server or community. I do agree with you though that it really only takes one bad seed in a guild to ruin the entire perception of that guild. Every guild has its troublemakers and it is up to that respective GM to either discipline those particular players or kick them out. Otherwise their reputation will directly reflect their apathy or lack of action to set a positive example for the server.

I've personally seen this whole-premade-leaving happen within the past two weeks. Yes, it was a problem with gamepirella but its still a problem with a handful of guilds here right now.

As far as PUGs are concerned, not all would likely support or want to take advice from other players. That being said, I do believe there would be a decent portion that would care and wouldn't mind having help. Having the option and tool available could go a long way, and for those who don't take advantage of it would have no place to complain.

As I said above, you're more than welcome to try.

Regardless I still appreciate all your feedback. I don't believe it's quite as black and white or negative as you perhaps make it seem, but certainly there are issues that need to be addressed. The Ebon Hawk can be better and that is exactly why this thread exists, to do just that.

I wasn't trying to be black and white. I summed up a few points that I thought were fairly simple and reasonable that apply to both pugs and groups: take responsibility and have respect. These are things that already are strengths of TEH but if even more people would do these simple things, it would make the community even healthier. I do think that we are in a much better place than we were pre-transfers, but TEH has a very, very small PVP population so we have to try extra hard to cultivate it and not alienate each other, alienate pugs, and create tension over silly things.

Perhaps we got off on the wrong foot, Nadir? I meant no harm. I just found your perspective on PvP to not necessarily reflect the current condition on The Ebon Hawk. I meant no disrespect.

I didn't create this thread to prove anybody wrong. All I want is to start a discussion on The Ebon Hawk that could perhaps lead to some positive action and change in the community. Nothing is guaranteed, but nothing will change if we do not try.

You are more or less agreeing with me that the 8v8 Ranked Warzone system is flawed and doesn't work. Sure, it's easier to just blame BioWare for all of our issues, but you have to recognize they are responsible for the feature. Especially in regards to a server such as this that isn't a PvP server, it's going to be more difficult to encourage and foster many guilds to run ranked warzones.

There is indeed a matchmaking system for warzone queues. I don't have a quote or link on hand, but Damion Schubert (Lead Combat Designer for BioWare Austin) has specifically addressed this in the past. Gabe Amatangelo (Lead PvP Designer still?) also talked how the game actually places premades against other premades. The matchmaking takes a variety of variables into consideration before building a match. It's not just randomly throwing players together. That being said it's not a perfect or flawless system by any means. I'll post a link later if and when I find a specific mention of BioWare's matchmaking system.

You make a valid point in regards to veteran players communicating with newcomers, and I agree with you. I just believe with instanced PvP such as warzones, it's difficult to build and foster these connections, especially when many PUGs in my experience are apathetic and do what they want, regardless of instruction. If Ilum World PvP still existed in the game, it was actually great at integrating new players into the established PvP community. I know from personal experience on my old server of Shien that Ilum allowed my entire faction to become much closer, coordinate groups, and train players in PvP. I feel in warzones where there is less time to explain and the experience is limited to 15-20 minutes. It's harder to build that kind of experience for players.

If there are still premades that join warzones and then leave them because their guildies are not on the same side, then shame on them. In my personal experience it tends to be more fun going against guildies, as this tends to lead to more competition and balances out the game. We can't force people how to act or how they should play, but certainly people should have common courtesy when they are affecting matches of other players.

I definitely agree with you 100% that things are better than they were pre-transfers. You are absolutely right, however, that there is plenty of work to be done and that it will require a lot of effort on our parts to improve things. This is why I'm happy I created this thread because it is getting people talking and bringing these issues forward. As far as I'm concerned we are all on the same side here as the goal is to improve things on our server, not to let them decline. Again, I really do appreciate you adding to the discussion as you have brought up a lot of valid points.

Like to add this...

It's 2013 and almost everyone has some form of voice system on their computer ( Skype, Ventrilo, Team Speak, and Mumble) there are even more out there. So lets just throw that excuse out the door. If you don't have these things on your computer by now and you logon a MMO it's a YOU problem not anyone else. This is like jumping out a airplane and crying that everyone else who jumped said plane all have parachutes but you don't. Yet you got on the plane and was told and showed to use a parachute! (SIGH)

Furthermore I have even went out my way to pay for a Team Speak for pugs that want to PVP or PVE. A good amount of people when asked if they want to form groups for WZ and jump in Team Speak turn their nose up at the thought of it. Yet not just few minutes later these same people cry that its not fair we are all in some group and are using a voice chat to WIN! (face meet palm)

Heck we have a good portion of guild members in Republic who do not have pvp gear as well. No different then these so called helpless solo players or pugs.(again SIGH) But all I hear is because we are a guild and have some nights of 8 or more members online we should be forced to do ranks. I want to really ask how these other pvp guilds who are pointing the finger got their gear? Is there some form of special treatment organized guilds get and they do not have to grind out gear like the rest? Is there a in game mail that Bioware sends that says congratulations you are in a guild here is you brand new PVP gear and you no longer have to do regular WZ? Answer would be a big NO. We all have grind those coms like the rest. Meaning everyone who is in some form of guild are all guilty of running premades or so called super queues. (we all have done this and still do)

The fact is some guilds progress faster gear wise in pvp. Just like guilds do in pve content. It all depends on how hard you work at doing so. Plus the time you have. These two go hand and hand!

Last but not least. There is no rule that forces people to have to solo queue. (It's a choice) This outcry that super queues are hurting the pvp and giving people the RIGHT to harass and insult others is ridiculous. These same type of people cause good MMO's to have to water down the game (NERF) everything to ground in order to please them.

Back to the real topic. It's glad to see and have healthy conversations with others outside our guild. Maybe one day on this Rep-side some of this guilds can start forming some kind of alliance and work together more. That way we can all help take down the evil mean IMPS

i mean since server transfers most of the good PvP'ers left for actual real PvP servers, where THEY belong...

I hate it when people keep pulling this card. The only difference in game on a PvP server is that it auto flags you in most areas and the queues take less time. On major reason people left in the first place (Ranked Warzones, poor souls...) no longer matters because BioWare screwed them over after taking their transfer money.

The pugs on Pot5 are JUST as bad, the exploiters are worse (rollbanging), the childishness is about the same though...My point being that I CHOOSE to play here because the people in general I like more. Don't presume that just because the server has "PvP" written on it's where I have to be if I'm a good PvP'er.

BioWare needs to get their act together and create cross server queues, that's the only way PvP in this game will work. Otherwise, it's just a ticking time bomb as to when the game eventually fails.

I hate it when people keep pulling this card. The only difference in game on a PvP server is that it auto flags you in most areas and the queues take less time. On major reason people left in the first place (Ranked Warzones, poor souls...) no longer matters because BioWare screwed them over after taking their transfer money.

 

The pugs on Pot5 are JUST as bad, the exploiters are worse (rollbanging), the childishness is about the same though...My point being that I CHOOSE to play here because the people in general I like more. Don't presume that just because the server has "PvP" written on it's where I have to be if I'm a good PvP'er.

 

BioWare needs to get their act together and create cross server queues, that's the only way PvP in this game will work. Otherwise, it's just a ticking time bomb as to when the game eventually fails.

I do not think he was referring to you when he mentioned pvpers that should go to pvp servers. Just saying. Not bashing.

I hate it when people keep pulling this card.

This is not a "bashing" ..its an observation..and there is a difference between Pot5 and bastion servers compared to EH....its where the ppl that want WORLD PvP and WZ PvP hang out..its where they are forced to push there game to the very limits, as everyone else is on those servers.....competitiveness breeds betterment....imo.

If you are a serious PvP'er...this is where you should be..i gave up alot of good freinds and great times when i moved servers from EH to two PvP servers...i play this game to PvP, i am good at it....i dont want to play with mediocre players that think they are good because they can get "big numbers" on a RP server....if you wanna be the best, you have to face the best...its the same in all walks of life....

BioWare needs to get their act together and create cross server queues, that's the only way PvP in this game will work. Otherwise, it's just a ticking time bomb as to when the game eventually fails.

This is Even more stupid...and this time i am bashing...WHY ?...as cross server PvP would breed more contempt and nastiness...knowing full well you are not going to see those players again, people would be nasty as hell to each other....

get some perspective.....PvP players belong on PvP servers...if they take themselves, and the game seriously, if they dont...imo they have no rights to brag, post numbers or even think they are good...untill they test themselves...and most will fall out of love with PvP very quickly, as they will find out they simply dont have the stones for it on a server where its competition galore, and mistakes are punished quickly....and i really dont care, this is just opinion, and they aint worth squat....the bigger issue is what RAELEN is gonna do to address a situation he created....thats the only issue on this thread imo

If the top players all just insulate themselves are refuse to play with people who are just getting started or need a few basic pointers (say, calling out a strat at the beginning of the warzone), then these noobs (so to speak!) are being denied the opportunity to meet and observe players better than themselves and learn something. What kind of community building is that? Just my opinion, though.

Nadir makes a really excellent point here, and you would be wise to listen to her, since she, more than probably anyone else on this server, has made a consistent effort to reach out to people.

I know that people from Republic, PM/Atrocity, etc... don't spend 100% percent of the time superqueuing. I've seen them out in the battegrounds in small groups or solo myself, so I know that's just not true. HOWEVER... if you all are actually serious about wanting to reach out to pugs and help them improve, you should seriously consider stopping the superqueues (for real superqueuing - not two groups ending up in one match because there's just one or two battlegrounds going). I mean, I personally don't have a big problem when guilds superqueue; having been on both sides of the premade pain train, I can see where both sides are coming from, but I'm pretty obviously in the minority.

For one thing, you're just alienating the people that you say you want to help. They're not going to remember that time when you soloqueued and got stomped along with them, but they sure as hell will remember the time that six to eight people with the same guild tag kicked their pug team halfway across the map. Which is one reason I find it deeply unlikely that they'll come to any clinic or workshop that y'all put on because the ones who would consider it will either be too annoyed or too intimidated to deal with you.

For another, you're removing yourself from the people you say you want to help. I mean, look, a lot of the puggers are clueless as hell. They aren't going to show up to some predetermined clinic time to get wisdom from you. If you want to actually help them get better you're going to have get dirty in the trenches with them, and very slowly, through little one on one interactions, try to help people.

My suggestions are:

1. Give clear orders at the beginning of the game to the whole team, especially if your four man is grouped with four noobs you don't recognize. (Incidentally this was my biggest beef with GG actually - you never heard a word from them unless you ****ed up). Half of the time they won't listen to you, but a lot of the time they actually will. Continue to communicate as much as you can through the whole game. It's very, very easy to forget to do that when four or more of you are on voice.

2. If you see a noob pugger who is consistantly doing all the right things (in the right spot, focus firing, responding to inc calls), but struggling a bit because they have two pieces of partisan and zero augments - lend them a hand. If you're like us, You have a guild bank that's probably packed with mats that no one is using and probably crafters that can help fresh 55's out. But even you're not inclined or have the means to help them with their gear, an encouraging word coupled with a piece of well timed advice can go a long way. So do MVP votes (as silly as they are). Instead of just tossing them on your own team (who probably doesn't need to know how good they are), consider giving them to the noob that really put the effort out.

3. Take some freaking personal accountability for your own teams. I know that a lot of puggers can suck horribly, probably more than most because I pug most of the time now, which is why I get why people superqueue. HOWEVER... just cause you're in a premade, doesn't automatically mean that you're better than the pugs you queued in with. I have lost track of the number of times that I've seen premades do completely stupid **** and blow the game for the rest of us. I've seen premades zerg to the middle, not making sure anyone covered west (where I, the lone healer, have to run west and cap it myself). I've seen premades ignore repeated inc calls for help. I've seen them zerg around like sheep with zero situational awareness and overcommiting that leads to an enemy cap. I've seen them chase one healer around while the rest of the enemy team is taking our other node. And the list goes on...

If four of you are on voice, but you let that pug noob with no expertise on his gear in level 45 greens guard the node by themselves, you're just as much to blame when that node gets stolen as they are. If every single one of you don't have your ops frames up so you can keep an eye on the rest of your team - you're doing it wrong. And if you lose, seriously sit down and take a look at the way your premade played. Odds are it was a pugger who screwed up, but also odds are there was something you might have been able to do to minimize the damage.

Anyway, I apologize for the long post. I admire the intent here, I think it would actually be a good thing if people tried to reach out to the pugs, because the situation is only going to get worse with the f2p crowd getting unlimited warzone access soon.

This is not a "bashing" ..its an observation..and there is a difference between Pot5 and bastion servers compared to EH....its where the ppl that want WORLD PvP and WZ PvP hang out..its where they are forced to push there game to the very limits, as everyone else is on those servers.....competitiveness breeds betterment....imo.

 

If you are a serious PvP'er...this is where you should be..i gave up alot of good freinds and great times when i moved servers from EH to two PvP servers...i play this game to PvP, i am good at it....i dont want to play with mediocre players that think they are good because they can get "big numbers" on a RP server....if you wanna be the best, you have to face the best...its the same in all walks of life....

 

 

 

This is Even more stupid...and this time i am bashing...WHY ?...as cross server PvP would breed more contempt and nastiness...knowing full well you are not going to see those players again, people would be nasty as hell to each other....

 

get some perspective.....PvP players belong on PvP servers...if they take themselves, and the game seriously, if they dont...imo they have no rights to brag, post numbers or even think they are good...untill they test themselves...and most will fall out of love with PvP very quickly, as they will find out they simply dont have the stones for it on a server where its competition galore, and mistakes are punished quickly....and i really dont care, this is just opinion, and they aint worth squat....the bigger issue is what RAELEN is gonna do to address a situation he created....thats the only issue on this thread imo

POT5 pvp was amazingly competitive until 2.4 was announced, maybe when it drops things will pick up again, but with so many guilds/people unsubbed/not playing pvp on that server is pretty meh.

If you guys really want to help the community you may be interested in this:

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=672872

snip

 

If you want to actually help them get better you're going to have get dirty in the trenches with them, and very slowly, through little one on one interactions, try to help people.

 

snip

Ding ding ding we have a winner!

This whole post is right on the money. If you want to help pugs get better, read this one. VERY well said, Pym!

The real issue with here honestly stems from the simple fact the Republic faction does not really have a driving force PvP guild. Each so called PvP guild on the Republic side has noteworthy players, nevertheless, for every noteworthy player you have three or four players that coast on the success of their better players, which is fine. Though, the problem this causes is it lacks continuity.

 

Players names have the ability to motivate players, like many here I have entered a warzone late only to turn it around because people followed my instructions, this was only possible because for some odd reason people think I am a decent player. This said, if the Republic side had PvP guild that got together the pvpers of our factor, I do think the factions player base would respond favorably. The would listen to instructions, not give up at the sight of a premade on the other side, because the PuGs would see via the guild tag that they have a premade of their own, and when that tag becomes known for having decent pvpers things will fall into place.

 

What we have now are noteworthy players spread out across different guilds, but often times people respond quicker to the guild tag instead of the player name. I mean it is silly but I have been in pugs that have given up just because the see four people from Regulators, which in all honesty is plain stupid.

 

It is said but when people grow to fear a guild tag a lot of people just roll over and die at the start, though same could be said when people grow to admire a guild tag, people tend to play harder and better.

 

So yeah, Republic side needs to really form a Super PvP guild of some kind to bring balance in the force. <The Chosen One> though I think <SUPER AWESOME HAPPY FUN TIME HOUR> would be more fitting. Might be too long though.

 

With so many decent imp guilds and players that group together, coupled with the lack of decent premades republic side we happen to create a void of helplessness which results in disdain for the faction in terms of pvp.

Hello and thank you for posting MahneWarrior. You bring up a valid point to this discussion in that the Republic faction does lack the PvP force the Empire faction possess. Faction population imbalances have always been an issue, but even more so post-server transfers. Besides maybe a handful of Republic guilds that can throw premades together, there really isn't much of a PvP force to be reckoned with.

As far as unifying all the noteworthy PvPers together into one common guild, that is unlikely to happen. I'm somewhat hesitant of the results of such a move as that is exactly what Game Genie/Empire/Guerrilla did, and they more or less killed the PvP community. Instead of having multiple competitive PvP guilds, they all combined into one and crushed anyone that opposed them. That doesn't help our PvP situation.

That being said, with the inclusion of 4v4 Arenas, less players involved and more accessibility could produce more competitive and active PvP on our server. There are a lot of Republic players out there that lack guild tags. I believe it is the responsibility of already established guilds to try to recruit those individuals, train them, and incorporate them into the PvP scene. More action on the parts of the guilds that already exist could help our current dilemma and improve conditions.

Hi all,

Just a friendly reminder: Call-outs of players or guilds are not allowed. You can read more about call-outs here.

My suggestions are:

 

1. Give clear orders at the beginning of the game to the whole team, especially if your four man is grouped with four noobs you don't recognize. (Incidentally this was my biggest beef with GG actually - you never heard a word from them unless you ****ed up). Half of the time they won't listen to you, but a lot of the time they actually will. Continue to communicate as much as you can through the whole game. It's very, very easy to forget to do that when four or more of you are on voice.

 

2. If you see a noob pugger who is consistantly doing all the right things (in the right spot, focus firing, responding to inc calls), but struggling a bit because they have two pieces of partisan and zero augments - lend them a hand. If you're like us, You have a guild bank that's probably packed with mats that no one is using and probably crafters that can help fresh 55's out. But even you're not inclined or have the means to help them with their gear, an encouraging word coupled with a piece of well timed advice can go a long way. So do MVP votes (as silly as they are). Instead of just tossing them on your own team (who probably doesn't need to know how good they are), consider giving them to the noob that really put the effort out.

 

3. Take some freaking personal accountability for your own teams. I know that a lot of puggers can suck horribly, probably more than most because I pug most of the time now, which is why I get why people superqueue. HOWEVER... just cause you're in a premade, doesn't automatically mean that you're better than the pugs you queued in with. I have lost track of the number of times that I've seen premades do completely stupid **** and blow the game for the rest of us. I've seen premades zerg to the middle, not making sure anyone covered west (where I, the lone healer, have to run west and cap it myself). I've seen premades ignore repeated inc calls for help. I've seen them zerg around like sheep with zero situational awareness and overcommiting that leads to an enemy cap. I've seen them chase one healer around while the rest of the enemy team is taking our other node. And the list goes on...

 

If four of you are on voice, but you let that pug noob with no expertise on his gear in level 45 greens guard the node by themselves, you're just as much to blame when that node gets stolen as they are. If every single one of you don't have your ops frames up so you can keep an eye on the rest of your team - you're doing it wrong. And if you lose, seriously sit down and take a look at the way your premade played. Odds are it was a pugger who screwed up, but also odds are there was something you might have been able to do to minimize the damage.

 

Anyway, I apologize for the long post. I admire the intent here, I think it would actually be a good thing if people tried to reach out to the pugs, because the situation is only going to get worse with the f2p crowd getting unlimited warzone access soon.

Great post. If there is going to be any comprehensive effort to try to improve the quality of PUGs on TEH, especially before they receive unlimited warzone access, this is the way to do it. We have to get up close and personal, constitute the effort to get to know these players, and show our intent is pure and sincere.

Otherwise as you suggested, they will either be intimidated or uninterested in receiving any sort of help from the established guilds on the server. I can't speak for any other guilds in my faction, but certainly I will be making a personal effort to try and connect to PUGs more.

I feel it's even more of an issue for us as a PvP community to keep things running, considering we are on a RP server and not everybody is interested in this game experience. Thanks again for making this post. If anything positive should come out of this thread, it should be the suggestions you just made.

If you guys really want to help the community you may be interested in this:

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=672872

This is another great idea. Thanks for posting.

Hmm....so what we have here is yet again, more failure....

This thread has turned into ...."lets put a freindly arm round a noob, and try to make them better,".. kinda smacks of the upmost condescension imo...also...um forgive me if i am wrong...but is that NOT what guilds are about, helping your fellow guildmates attain there full potential and ensuring the game is an enjoyable experience for them ?!?!...yes, i think i read that somewhere...is a guild not also there to suppport and protect a fellow member ???....i think i read that somewhere too....

The issue here is one that is ugly, and too many times the inhabitants of this server choose to "look the other way" when things get uncomfortable for them, or simply put there head in the sand.. and do nothing...

Let me make this simple...there IS currently someone on the EH server, Masquerading as other individuals and creating bad feeling for that person by going around and saying horrid nasty things about other people in the hope of creating bad feeling and ill will towards innocent parties......why ?!?!....No one can know the mind of a sick individual...WHERE ?!??! ....RIGHT NOW on the EH.....WHO ?!?!?....No one knows...or is willing to say....

The proof is on Heatherblades Enjin wall....in the form of a Screenshot...most of her freinds have seen it, i myself was disgusted when i did, to think of someone doing this to her....a well liked and great member of the EH community is...in my opinion Abhorrent. I know its not causing her to leave the game..i know she made her mind up a few weeks ago, before all this Drama happened...but it could have..to a lesser person...

What have the great and the good members of the EH community chosen to do about this.....to my knowledge NOTHING....when they should be....I really think the Gm's of the "PvP" guilds should actually get together and talk about this, ask there members to report this to the admins in game...write tickets....especially when it has gotten this far, which is quite far enough..only when the people responsible for doing this is directly effected, and the PvP community see's that this behavior will NOT be tolerated....only then will i think people will buy into this sudden turn of altruistic events on the server....This could be interpreted as a childish rant...its not, i just wanted to make it as basic as possible do everyone that reads it know what is going on....in the vain and empty hope some people may be willing to step up, and do something real....instead of bleating about nothing...

THAT IS THE ISSUE HERE.....

Hmm....so what we have here is yet again, more failure....

 

This thread has turned into ...."lets put a freindly arm round a noob, and try to make them better,".. kinda smacks of the upmost condescension imo...also...um forgive me if i am wrong...but is that NOT what guilds are about, helping your fellow guildmates attain there full potential and ensuring the game is an enjoyable experience for them ?!?!...yes, i think i read that somewhere...is a guild not also there to suppport and protect a fellow member ???....i think i read that somewhere too....

 

The issue here is one that is ugly, and too many times the inhabitants of this server choose to "look the other way" when things get uncomfortable for them, or simply put there head in the sand.. and do nothing...

 

Let me make this simple...there IS currently someone on the EH server, Masquerading as other individuals and creating bad feeling for that person by going around and saying horrid nasty things about other people in the hope of creating bad feeling and ill will towards innocent parties......why ?!?!....No one can know the mind of a sick individual...WHERE ?!??! ....RIGHT NOW on the EH.....WHO ?!?!?....No one knows...or is willing to say....

 

The proof is on Heatherblades Enjin wall....in the form of a Screenshot...most of her freinds have seen it, i myself was disgusted when i did, to think of someone doing this to her....a well liked and great member of the EH community is...in my opinion Abhorrent. I know its not causing her to leave the game..i know she made her mind up a few weeks ago, before all this Drama happened...but it could have..to a lesser person...

 

What have the great and the good members of the EH community chosen to do about this.....to my knowledge NOTHING....when they should be....I really think the Gm's of the "PvP" guilds should actually get together and talk about this, ask there members to report this to the admins in game...write tickets....especially when it has gotten this far, which is quite far enough..only when the people responsible for doing this is directly effected, and the PvP community see's that this behavior will NOT be tolerated....only then will i think people will buy into this sudden turn of altruistic events on the server....This could be interpreted as a childish rant...its not, i just wanted to make it as basic as possible do everyone that reads it know what is going on....in the vain and empty hope some people may be willing to step up, and do something real....instead of bleating about nothing...

 

 

 

 

THAT IS THE ISSUE HERE.....

Hello and thank you for posting Psychana. There is one issue in particular with your post. We do not know who committed this heinous act against Heather. We probably will never know. That being said, part of the reason I created this thread was to bring light to the fact these events are occurring on our server.

This is why I'm hoping everyone can at least be empathetic, and be spurred to action to report misbehaviors and uphold basic and decent conduct in warzones. That being said, this disgruntled player impersonating others very well could be a random PUG, or perhaps someone in an established guild. Whatever the case, trying to set a better example and helping others can go a long way to improving behavior on our server.

If I ever find out who is so cowardly and bitter to commit such atrocities against other players, I will be more than happy to report them to BioWare and hopefully everyone else will as well. Until then, setting a better example for all and trying to change the mentality of PvP on this server is a nice place to start.

....

okay, not sure if anyone ever told you this, but when replying to a post above you, there really is no need to quote the entire thing....really..is NO need....i stand by my words everytime i hit the enter button...

Secondly...in case IQ's have suddenly dropped, and i am not aware of it....or in case you have not been reading my posts on this thread...let me make myself perfectly clear...or give you a road map...<passes crayons and paper>

1) Everyone should report the names of the the person doing this to Heather and others in a written ticket to the Admins...and i mean everyone that has an interest in the community of PvP flourish on the EH...if enough people do it...they will take action, hopefully resulting in a ban...even a 24 hour one is sometimes enough to take stock of your own actions, and adjust there behavior. This would send a message, not only to the person involved, the admins at BW, but to the server as a whole...showing that this type of behavior will not be tolerated in the community. There is no need to have "names"...the admins can actually find out that stuff and then act, if enough people actually are bothered to make a stand and be united.

2) The Gm's of big PvP guilds take stock of the situation, and actively encourage better habits amongst there members, the scrapping of double queueing in WZ's, warning there members about trashtalking when its reported to them, all of the antisocial behavior, backed up by screen shots ofcourse...and the GM's and officers of those guild acting on that information in order to show that they will not tolerate it....and that it is not acceptable to conduct yourself in that manner, and still remain a member of that guild...and this STARTS with the GM's and officers...if not..it will fail.

3) I am all for "help a noob"...infact i have done it many times myself, and i have taken quite a few players under my wing and nutured there development, and the rewards for this is great, seeing someones game enhanced by there own self confidence and belief, there skill set widen and them become "better than noob" is amazing..infact one of the posters in this Thread, a great member of the EH community once helped me...a debt i still owe, and know i can never repay, to this day.....so i have been there...and i know the feelings it can bring.

4) GM's and officers stopping the mentality of "my guild is better than yours"....it has to come right from the top..only then can the behavior of members be moderated, and expected to change...(this i believe can never happen)

5) Actively encouraging people to join your voice comms for matches..i know SC still has a relatively open policy about freinds of players and ex members popping into there voice comms...and i am sure if Pano ( GM SC) felt it would bring more positives to the EH server, would probably endorse this behavior.

6) Communication, and yet more communication between GM's of guilds, if a player has been a "questionable" member, and you see they leave your guild, and join another.....have a word with the GM of there new guild, as a courtesy, explain events and let them know the potential harm a member could do to there guild, and its reputation.

I dont see any of these suggestions happening anytime soon, too many people have the mentality of "its only a game" or ..."I dont care about others" attitude...asking for suggestions or even discussing this is about as useful of putting a band aid on an arm thats just been ripped off by a great white shark...

Untill the GM's, officers and players of EH begin to take positive action.....nothing will change...all this talking does if clog up forums, and waste peoples playing time....imho, but i like to throw my 2 cents in anyway...get it off my chest !

Hello, I came here via following the dev tracker. I'm on Vanjervalis Chain, I'm sorry.

This discussion is interesting. There's much to comment on, but i think that it wouldn't be a very ggood ideaif I did, since I'm from another server.

Hello and thank you for posting MahneWarrior. You bring up a valid point to this discussion in that the Republic faction does lack the PvP force the Empire faction possess. Faction population imbalances have always been an issue, but even more so post-server transfers. Besides maybe a handful of Republic guilds that can throw premades together, there really isn't much of a PvP force to be reckoned with.

In one discussion, someone has put forth the theory of Republic side players either being - as a tendency - "carebears" or older and/or more "casual" players i general.

Which would be at least a possible explanation to tell why there's faction imbalance.

However, there are servers, where the Republic side is dominating, and on others, it's the empire's side.

I have the suspicion that the Empire faction attracts rather - as a tendency - the opposite of "carebears". Rather aggressive players. And perhaps younger players as well. But - that's still merely a suspicion, nothing solid at all.

Regarding bullying : I've been reading through the German PvP forums. (Since I'm a German-language player.)

Yes, there's drama, bullying and imsulting going on. Or - at least it was going on until the server transfers came.

What they did there is something they called "forums-PvP. Insulting, bullying, everything was possible, but what appeared in the forums was usually only a weak hint towards what had happened in TS before.

Another thing I learnedis that it's usually men bullying women in PvP - not the other way round. In one case, an female organisator of an PvP meeting in-game was bullied and insulted via TS. My personal impression was - not so much because she was a bad player - she had been organizing this kind of meeting, in fact ! - but rather because she was a woman.

This thing has never been fully resolved within the forums. To outsiders, it was an rather vague thing.

From all of these forum entries I drew my very personal impression that it is pretty normal for some players to insult others. I's like some kind of sport for them - to insult each other.

And if ANYONE gets between them - they receive full fire, too.

I have no idea how this can be dealt with. Because to this kind of players, it's just a natural thing, to insult each other. At least that's my personal impression I saw.

Hi all,

 

Just a friendly reminder: Call-outs of players or guilds are not allowed. You can read more about call-outs here.

 

Another person coming in here stealing my /popcorn

take a seat bro and a number.