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Premades are ruining non-ranked warzones


Monoth

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Alt-f4 is enough. I am on SSD hard drive so the game launch pretty fast. Compared to using the "leave WZ" button, I will maybe loose 20s at most. And as I stated it is highly improbable they will detect the alt+f4 because even if they did that it would not solve the problem. I took the unplug example, but I have many other options like for example tuning my firewall, and interrupt only enough to get disconnected do the servers page, so that I don't even have to close and re-launch the game. Sorry for you, but it is quick and easy to go around your proposition.

 

That's YOU. Are you sure that all others are running on SSD and that - come on, would love to do that EVERY TIME they bump into a "problematic" WZ?

 

In the arenas if you are considered a week class as I am and focused from the start by those F*** sneaky assassins, you often get 0 medals during the fight, which gives absolutely no valor or commendations at the end. If you force me to stay, I can maybe do a /stuck and wait for the end of the fight? By doing so I ensure I won't get replaced and my team mates will be 3v4 all along, which is quite deadly most of the time.

 

Which class is that? Sage? Inquisitor? If it is so, than I must say some of the most formidable foes I've encountered were sages and inquisitors.

 

I was in WZ where my team was against 6 inquisitors, I presume 2 of them were healers. Other 2 were, think, 1 jugg and 1 pt...

 

It was a carnage. You know how looks like S&V last boss, the lightning manifestation? Try that on 50 lvl armor on nightmare mode.

 

Only solution is to set up a "no arenas" option, and you will soon see that non ranked arenas will get deserted pretty quickly because most players don't like it

 

I don't know, I kinda like the arenas because they show me clear picture about some players: you can nice see there who is an idiot, who does not listen, who knows his rotations, who thinks is a jedi rambo but does not keybind (just look how he TURNS, if he does it in air and in split second, he knows to combine WASD and right mouse button - but I was amazed HOW SMALL PERCENTAGE OF PEOPLE KNOW THAT!)...

 

Also, I love arenas because its quick: you need your daily quickly, cause you wait your gm to assemble op team? Arenas are the best - you enter, divide some smacks, you leave. Quick.

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so, have I understood this correctly? 'The good players' pass on the opportunity to show off their awesomeness, be the deciding factor to win a WZ, or to create a reputation as the the good player who teach the 'bads' a few tricks to get them better and by his lonesome got the skills to carry a mediocre team to victory!!??

 

OR did the 'good player' realize that this is not the team to carry HIM to victory!!???????

 

Well... it could be the later, what you said...

 

But good players are not very decisive factors. There are no such thing as Jedi Rambo. Sure, they can clear out, say, 2-3 foes on Voidstar gate or solely intercept inc on Alderaan node.

In Huttball they can score 1-2. After the enemy sees them as big threat and focus them. Then you loose energy faster than you can click anything.

 

So there are many rage quits...

 

In my experience, the reasons of WZ loosing are this (ordered):

1) Not focusing on objectives (here go kill-kill-kill, not call inc)

2) Premade on com - and especially frightful premade is 2XASSASIN-OPERATIVE HEALER (these kill through WZ even if they are squishy 1v1)

2) Not using ccs instead of sword and standing in place

3) Not focusing fire

4) Showing acute idiotism in form of attacking obviously mezzed player

 

Now - premades can be beaten, but then at least 7 of pug players on other side must be pro. And by that I mean that a) they know their toon better than they know their wallet, b) they keybind, c) they know other classes like back of their house.

 

And in how many cases you have that?

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Maybe coordinate sending BW pictures of the 1000s of dead pugs sacrificed to the premade horde. More whining here isn't going to help

 

Th reason why they havent fixed it is likely twofold:

 

1) Separation would drive queue times for group pvp'ers up

2) Pugs players are easy to replace. For every fed up pug veteran who quits, there's an inexperienced newbie pug player who starts his new found career as cannon fodder.

 

That said we can use oour main PUG "weapons" which are:

1) Vote with our wallets. Hurting BW on the income is the best tool to show displeasure with the current system

2) Leave imbalanced warzones early in protest. Give "Mr. Metrics" some extra data to analyse.

3) Not play them at all

 

I will use all tools liberally once my sub expires.

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Give "Mr. Metrics" some extra data to analyse.

 

"Mr. Metrics" has a nice ring to it...much better than "Mr. Fact-based Analysis", which I was thinking about trademarking. Because if you lay out the facts, there really only three (3) options:

 

(1) The 6000-odd posts complaining about premades (actually, the number is probably more like 3500, since there seems to be a rough balance of posts complaining and defending (or saying "meh") to premades) doesn't jibe with what BW is seeing from the DATA, and they've chosen to ignore the issue and say nothing.

 

(2) The posts have had their desired response, and BW working on something that they're saying absolutely nothing about. And, they're maintaining radio silence even tho a public statement that they're trying to fix the issue would provide a business benefit (i.e., premade haterz deciding to maintain their subscriptions and hold out for a solution).

 

(3) They know there's an issue with premades, but the cost / effort of a reasonable solution isn't currently justified by the scope of the issue (again, determined by looking at the DATA). In this case, BW benefits by saying nothing. This is because if they say they have no intent of solving the problem, all the premade haterz would immediately unsubscribe (or find something else to complain about).

 

So, all three scenarios result in BW keeping quiet. But, in the ONLY option that gets premade haterz some sort of satisfaction, BW actually benefits from speaking out: even if it's in the most generic, vaporware terms. Guess what...they haven't. Look at the press releases, the blogs, the video interviews, etc.--I can't find any evidence that anyone at BW sees premades as an issue. If you have the smoking gun, please wave it around for the rest of us.

 

Which brings me back to the point of my original post...you can either continue to whine and complain on a 600-page thread about premade baddies (accomplishing NOTHING), or you can up your game.

Edited by DainjaMouz
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Which brings me back to the point of my original post...you can either continue to whine and complain on a 600-page thread about premade baddies (accomplishing NOTHING), or you can up your game.

 

No, we can

 

A) Keep complaining and grow moustaches et cetera as a sign of awareness on an still existing issue

 

and/or

 

B) Unsub.

 

C) Suffer an inbalanced design.

 

I choose B) in a week or two.

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At the moment, this is all a moot point.

1. there is no cross server que system in place with out it you are stuck on the same server facing the same crowds.

2. there is no match making system, they cant, there is no pool to draw from due to no cross server ques.

3. they took away the ranked 8v8's, for those of us like my self that loves to que up in a group with fellow guildies, we are by default pited against pugs, sometimes we lose mostly we win, I like gaming with my friends its a mmo, but BW does not give us the tools to que as a guild against other groups, arenas do not test skill, team play and objectives do.

 

the moral of the story is, if there are no tools to game with our friends with out intifearing with solo pug groups then it will always be an issue, arenas are fun but its just a boring duel and does not test skill or competitive objective team play.

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arenas do not test skill, team play and objectives do.

 

Respecing to turtle matches, huttball click macros, indefinite suicide runs to stop caps, trading AOE cc bombs hoping to get a lucky cap. This was the "skill" rewarded by 8v8s, arena requires far more actual ability playing your toon to consistently win.

Not saying 8v8 wasn't fun or didn't require skill, just saying it's silly to say 8v8 requires more skill than arena. Mistakes are less forgiving in arena and you can't hide the bad in 4v4.

Edited by Domatron
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"Mr. Metrics" has a nice ring to it...much better than "Mr. Fact-based Analysis", which I was thinking about trademarking. Because if you lay out the facts, there really only three (3) options:

 

(1) The 6000-odd posts complaining about premades (actually, the number is probably more like 3500, since there seems to be a rough balance of posts complaining and defending (or saying "meh") to premades) doesn't jibe with what BW is seeing from the DATA, and they've chosen to ignore the issue and say nothing.

 

(2) The posts have had their desired response, and BW working on something that they're saying absolutely nothing about. And, they're maintaining radio silence even tho a public statement that they're trying to fix the issue would provide a business benefit (i.e., premade haterz deciding to maintain their subscriptions and hold out for a solution).

 

(3) They know there's an issue with premades, but the cost / effort of a reasonable solution isn't currently justified by the scope of the issue (again, determined by looking at the DATA). In this case, BW benefits by saying nothing. This is because if they say they have no intent of solving the problem, all the premade haterz would immediately unsubscribe (or find something else to complain about).

 

So, all three scenarios result in BW keeping quiet. But, in the ONLY option that gets premade haterz some sort of satisfaction, BW actually benefits from speaking out: even if it's in the most generic, vaporware terms. Guess what...they haven't. Look at the press releases, the blogs, the video interviews, etc.--I can't find any evidence that anyone at BW sees premades as an issue. If you have the smoking gun, please wave it around for the rest of us.

 

Which brings me back to the point of my original post...you can either continue to whine and complain on a 600-page thread about premade baddies (accomplishing NOTHING), or you can up your game.

 

I am not sure what is so abnormal about being curious customer not happy with current service, asking questions about future of such service. Its happening in business world every day and that is why enterprises have PR departments and such.

 

I want some answers, communication. They will not give me any? I will be very careful when keeping current service and purchasing future ones from such company. We do not care, take your stuff and go .. oh its no good for business to tell me straight. Geniuses.

 

They are quiet because of (3) otherwise EA PR need modify their ranks.

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I want some answers, communication. They will not give me any?

 

This is exactly my point--they will not give you any answers. They haven't given anyone anything after 6000+ posts on the topic--what makes anyone think that another 1000 on the pile is going to change things? I believe it was Einstein that defined insanity as "doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." What ARE you expecting--some BW community moderator is going to read the 7001st post and say "wow, we've really got to do something about this!"?

 

The ironic thing is that BW doesn't need to explain why it's not doing anything, because it's already got a WHOLE BUNCH of people on this thread telling you that premades aren't a problem, and that any pugs that complain are a bunch of whiny-babies. Face it, it's not like the entire SWTOR community is complaining. Lots of players like the status quo. BW can choose to do NOTHING, and continue to rake in the subscription fees while this flamefest continues ad infinitum. The only thing that continuing to post on this thread does is take up additional disk capacity in a server farm somewhere.

 

Which brings me back to: if you want some answers, you have to change your approach. Walking away from your subscription (with an email to customer support) certainly sends a stronger signal than perpetuating this conversation. The only point this thread serves at this point is to provide a forum for certain users to complain about premades, and for other users to defend the status quo. All in all, it's a pretty good deal for BW.

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option D) use the /inv command available to all players

Not applicable as the skiillcap for running a premade in regs is so boringly low that you have to go into the cellar to find it. There' simply no challenge in it.

 

If you wanna test any potential mettle, you want to go PUG vs PUG. THAT's where you get to prove your worth (or lack of)

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Not applicable as the skiillcap for running a premade in regs is so boringly low that you have to go into the cellar to find it. There' simply no challenge in it.

 

If you wanna test any potential mettle, you want to go PUG vs PUG. THAT's where you get to prove your worth (or lack of)

 

If you want to test mettle you do ranked not regs, pug vs pug is only a contest of which team gets randomly assigned the least dead weight.

 

So my other option, que solo ranked seems to fit the bill of what you're after

Edited by Domatron
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This is exactly my point--they will not give you any answers. They haven't given anyone anything after 6000+ posts on the topic--what makes anyone think that another 1000 on the pile is going to change things? I believe it was Einstein that defined insanity as "doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." What ARE you expecting--some BW community moderator is going to read the 7001st post and say "wow, we've really got to do something about this!"?

 

The ironic thing is that BW doesn't need to explain why it's not doing anything, because it's already got a WHOLE BUNCH of people on this thread telling you that premades aren't a problem, and that any pugs that complain are a bunch of whiny-babies. Face it, it's not like the entire SWTOR community is complaining. Lots of players like the status quo. BW can choose to do NOTHING, and continue to rake in the subscription fees while this flamefest continues ad infinitum. The only thing that continuing to post on this thread does is take up additional disk capacity in a server farm somewhere.

 

Which brings me back to: if you want some answers, you have to change your approach. Walking away from your subscription (with an email to customer support) certainly sends a stronger signal than perpetuating this conversation. The only point this thread serves at this point is to provide a forum for certain users to complain about premades, and for other users to defend the status quo. All in all, it's a pretty good deal for BW.

 

Though academic debate as neither of us have the numbers .. btw like today I remember BW in beta days sharing how they have matrix for this and that, how can they tell where on map players run and dont .. the whole lot of people you have in mind do not claim that premades are not a problem. Define problem.

 

It is for fact that premades play games against pugs. The phenomenon exists. From where I sit, almost nobody is even advocating status quo, just some are less bothered than others and/or do not have any hopes for change. Killing PvP remember? So how is PvP population, and gameplay, on servers? Lets not go there.

 

There is win-win scenario. Scenario leading to everyone, more or less, happy. As you noted, some might have different cost/benefit analysis and others ask for them. Maybe you are right and there is no point asking, but unless its against some rules I have not read it is my right.

 

Subscription will run out sooner or later, that is inevitable. Considering the thread proportions, I do expect those responsible come here and communicate or at lest address the issue officially elsewhere. If it bothers you, it is not my intention.

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There's nothing for bioware to address this is an mmo based on people grouping and playing together

Weather you see premade vs pug as "unfair" is irrelevant

That's why theres no response because it's just a stupid whine over people expecting some sort of single player game from a mmo its crazy and I'm glad they give it no attention because it deserves none.

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There's nothing for bioware to address this is an mmo based on people grouping and playing together

Weather you see premade vs pug as "unfair" is irrelevant

That's why theres no response because it's just a stupid whine over people expecting some sort of single player game from a mmo its crazy and I'm glad they give it no attention because it deserves none.

 

Not quite. The issue, as demonstrated several times, is deeper than "unfair", although we can debate how "fair" and "competitive" and "fun" are related. The issue is lack of PvP player base. Whether its cause or consequence is irrelevant. The suggestion is cross-server interaction. I would almost write something about BW sockpuppet or trolling, as its beyond me how can someone advocate status quo for cometitive PvP in SWTOR, but its probably against the rules so lets keep the thread moving.

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Not quite. The issue, as demonstrated several times, is deeper than "unfair", although we can debate how "fair" and "competitive" and "fun" are related. The issue is lack of PvP player base. Whether its cause or consequence is irrelevant. The suggestion is cross-server interaction. I would almost write something about BW sockpuppet or trolling, as its beyond me how can someone advocate status quo for cometitive PvP in SWTOR, but its probably against the rules so lets keep the thread moving.

 

So because because Someone doesn't agree and sees no issue with the status que they're a bioware sock puppet

Yeah right .... The fact is premades are part of the game they are not game breaking

People against them use them as an excuse for their own failings.

and the majority of the player base and bioware agrees that there's no issue.

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So because because Someone doesn't agree and sees no issue with the status que they're a bioware sock puppet

Yeah right .... The fact is premades are part of the game they are not game breaking

People against them use them as an excuse for their own failings.

and the majority of the player base and bioware agrees that there's no issue.

 

Well, it was kind of joke and expression of amazement. I've played competitive games before so I have some idea how it works. Here in SWTOR premades are part of the game, and while I am not sure what "game breaking" means, this thread of thousands of replies exists. I do not see another thread of similar magnitude about non-existing issues.

 

Your interpretation is noted, however, it differs from my intentions and motivation. Your claims about majority of player base are unsupported, but also noted. I am not sure what claim of mine you don't agree with, but as far as your post was concerned, yes, I cannot believe someone can hold so biased opinion.

Edited by knownastherat
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It is for fact that premades play games against pugs. The phenomenon exists. From where I sit, almost nobody is even advocating status quo, just some are less bothered than others and/or do not have any hopes for change.

 

If you scroll down just a bit, you'll find this:

 

There's nothing for bioware to address this is an mmo based on people grouping...That's why theres no response because it's just a stupid whine over people expecting some sort of single player game from a mmo its crazy and I'm glad they give it no attention because it deserves none.

 

As I said, BW doesn't have to respond, because there are plenty of people satisfied with the status quo. These same players (including myself) will gladly make the case for inaction, allowing BW to remain above the fray. If you don't believe that, you obviously haven't spent any time reviewing this thread. You've made the same mistake that 100s of others on this thread have made before you: that your perspective is somehow "special" and worthy of a response. In reality, the number of people complaining on this thread are a small fraction of the overall subscriber base. Unless the DATA indicate an exodus of subscribers as a result of poor PvP experience due to premades, nothing you say in this thread is worth the time you spent typing it up.

 

Sorry to sound all harsh...I just hate to see pugs typing when they could be making bad decisions in a WZ.

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Well, it was kind of joke and expression of amazement. I've played competitive games before so I have some idea how it works. Here in SWTOR premades are part of the game, and while I am not sure what "game breaking" means, this thread of thousands of replies exists. I do not see another thread of similar magnitude about non-existing issues.

 

Your interpretation is noted, however, it differs from my intentions and motivation. Your claims about majority of player base are unsupported, but also noted. I am not sure what claim of mine you don't agree with, but as far as your post was concerned, yes, I cannot believe someone can hold so biased opinion.

 

Look at the thread it's the same people over and over

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Lets say you are queuing solo and you get into a warzone with 7 other people that all had solo queued.

 

Now after that warzone you invite three of your teammates from that PuG team into a group and group queue them. you have now just queued a four man premade.

 

But what is different about those players now that they are queued together into a warzone rather than being pugged together? Their gear is the same, their skill is no different. Nothing is different they are just four players in a eight man team just like in the PuG wz they where also four players in a eight man team.

 

Grouping doesn't make anyone better or make winning require any less skill.

 

Also if your not convinced I have a very simple solution to premades

 

 

Upon entering a warzone all players guild tags are hidden for the duration

 

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Now after that warzone you invite three of your teammates from that PuG team into a group and group queue them. you have now just queued a four man premade.

 

But what is different about those players now that they are queued together into a warzone rather than being pugged together?

F-me, I promised myself I'd never post in these forms but this argument is so farsighted it needed addressed.

 

The difference is simply that one isn't going to be inviting bads to join your pre-made. Evenly distributed there should be just as many "bads" in every WZ as "goods." Forming your premade, you stack the deck due to you not inviting any "bads" and only bringing "goods." Therefore you will end up with 4 decent players before the round starts, and then pick up even MORE once the queue pops, run your 5-6 "goods" against their two and faceroll.

 

Grouping doesn't make anyone better

Correct. It makes sure the GROUP is going to be better.

 

Also if your not convinced I have a very simple solution to premades

 

LOL. People don't need guild tags to know they're against pre-mades. Being focused down 30K health in one GCD is more than enough.

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Lets say you are queuing solo and you get into a warzone with 7 other people that all had solo queued.

 

Now after that warzone you invite three of your teammates from that PuG team into a group and group queue them. you have now just queued a four man premade.

 

But what is different about those players now that they are queued together into a warzone rather than being pugged together? Their gear is the same, their skill is no different. Nothing is different they are just four players in a eight man team just like in the PuG wz they where also four players in a eight man team.

 

Grouping doesn't make anyone better or make winning require any less skill.

 

Also if your not convinced I have a very simple solution to premades

 

 

Upon entering a warzone all players guild tags are hidden for the duration

 

If nothing is different, if there is no gain no loss of any kind, they do not need the option to group, do they?

 

There is nothing inherently sound, from game design point of view, about being able to do what you describe. Form a group, any kind of group, and be matched against group with random composition. Nothing. The opposite would be closer to reality or norm, as seen in other games, competitive activities and sports.

 

Random player enters random game randomly, respectively the matchmaking does its magic. Group of players can be matched against another group of players, not random players. What is the problem with this suggestion? The population is too low? While its strange its too low since PvP is, according to some and maybe even majority, hmm fine lets focus on making pools deep enough then.

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  • 3 weeks later...
Hmmm randomly came across this tread so of course i have not read most of the posts, surprised there is so many.... I just want to say of course a premade gives you an advantage in pvp but just because you q solo dose not mean everyone else cant q with there friends. It's not hard to find people to play with if you're in a guild and if you're not in one join one and not every premade is good it also depends on how good your team is, premades can get crushed if they get vs allot of good pugs. If they did q premades id say people would ofc quit not be able to q with there friends and really it would not help it's then complete luck if you win when anyone who q'es solo can get a premade if they wanna win. But no they would rather whine about it on a tread. :rolleyes:
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