So tired of trying to tank mobs on my guardian and the dps easily pulls it from me. I'm in the right form, I have all the right abilities to tank, but yet there isn't very many that generate large amounts of threat. All the taunts have such an unusually long cooldown. And it is because of this, I have seen more and more groups looking for trooper and assassin tanks instead of guardians. When it comes to single target I don't have a problem, but when it is more than one, I tend to struggle...

Place guard on that commando/sentinel.

 

I don't have threat issues with my guardian. So maybe you're doing something wrong....

I don't have threat issues with my guardian. So maybe you're doing something wrong....

 

It's pretty well known that, compared to the other 2 tanks, Guardians have noticeably worse threat generation and damage dealt. Taunt spamming takes care of most of the problems, but it's still an issue. Presumably the developers are going to fix it with the xpac (probably a new t8 talent that buffs the living bejeebus out of Guardian Slash).

 

As to the OP, if you're having problem with AoE threat, it helps to understand how the taunts work: if you're using your taunt right at the beginning to get threat on everything, you're going to lose threat as soon as the 6 sec taunt debuff wears off because you're not generating any threat with the AoE taunt. The taunts place your threat at the multiplier required to pull threat off of the existing target: for targets that you are within 4m of the center of their model for, it's only 110% of current threat; for targets that you are further than that from, it's 130% of current threat. If you taunt a target that hasn't had any threat generated on it (like you're likely doing at the start of the fight), you're not getting any threat generation benefit out of your taunt; just the debuff.

 

So, instead of taunting right off the bat, wait until you've thrown down with Force Sweep and Guardian Slash (for a cleave) and *then* use your AoE taunt. You'll get the benefit of the threat generation on your taunt *and* the 6 sec debuff.

Tanking Guardian damage and threat needs a serious adjustment. It's gotten to the point where on the TFB Kephass fight, first phase, I pretty much have to hold back on my Shadow "Rotation" to avoid pulling aggro back from the Guardian tank in my group after I get the Debuff (that negates threat). Even if he taunts, one full cycle of my rotation and I've got aggro back.

 

If BW buffed the damage to Guardian Slash or even added a proc that refreshed the CD on Master Strike or made it hit harder or generate more threat I think that'd be pretty much all they need.

Dunno anything about those story modes, but other hard mode FP's & daily heroics I have no issues. I agree we need damage boost though !

I've had this problem too, even on Flashpoints where trying to hold a mob's attention is damn near impossible. I think Guardians (and Juggernauts) would be more effective as Tanks if their aoe taunt lasted longer and had half the cooldown time it currently has.

It's pretty well known that, compared to the other 2 tanks, Guardians have noticeably worse threat generation and damage dealt.

 

How much worse? I'm doing something like 100-150 less dps on my guardian than my vanguard. I'd been ascribing most of that difference to my being bad and having worse gear (van is full DG, guardian still has a columi weapon).

How much worse? I'm doing something like 100-150 less dps on my guardian than my vanguard. I'd been ascribing most of that difference to my being bad and having worse gear (van is full DG, guardian still has a columi weapon).

 

Played optimally in 63's, a Vanguard tank can expect 800-850 DPS, a Shadow tank 900 DPS, and a Guardian tank 650 DPS (700 maybe in hybrid spec).

 

On top of that, we also get the harshest penalty to our DPS on targets that use all force/tech attacks, like Zorn or Stormcaller, since it cuts out Riposte (a significant chunk of our DPS) and Courage (a big part of Focus management for Defense spec).

 

The funny thing was, before 1.3 hit, we were already the worst damage and threat tanks even with picking up 6% melee damage from single saber mastery and Guardian Slash being = to Overhead Slash in damage, and boosting to Dispatch level damage at 5 stacks of Sunder (so basically from your 2nd Guardian Slash on for the rest of a fight).

Let's improve the guardian slash by making it a small nuke 5 stacks of sundering armor gives the gurdian slash also the ability to ignore 30% of targets armor aswell as those who are hit by the AoE effect. And make players KO'd by the AoE effect aswell so it becomes even more viable in PvP.

Perhaps the cookie cutter guardian tank build isn't all it's made out to be.

 

Using taunts straight off is not a good way to go. I tend to only use taunts once in a fight to grab attention and then follow that up with damage dealt. If the group is spread apart then I refrain from leading off with sabre throw as it is useful to grab aggro later. I also try and herd opponents together so that I can use the multiple target kick ability.

 

I've diverted from the standard skill set to include a full boost to my strength and a couple of other skills from the damage trees.

 

I suspect that you may not need to go full tank in order to work well, but I appreciate that it does rely more on equipment (armour class, defence adjustments, shield and absorb).

 

I don't claim to be an expert as I'm only at level 42 so far, but I have noticed that whenever I taunt an opponent to a high damage dps I need to follow that up with actual damage if I'm to pull agro onto me.

 

Another point is if possible I never run without a Might stim, but then having Biochem crew skill helps there. don't forget that as well as boosting damage it also boosts accuracy and health.

Perhaps the cookie cutter guardian tank build isn't all it's made out to be.

 

Using taunts straight off is not a good way to go. I tend to only use taunts once in a fight to grab attention and then follow that up with damage dealt. If the group is spread apart then I refrain from leading off with sabre throw as it is useful to grab aggro later. I also try and herd opponents together so that I can use the multiple target kick ability.

 

I've diverted from the standard skill set to include a full boost to my strength and a couple of other skills from the damage trees.

 

I suspect that you may not need to go full tank in order to work well, but I appreciate that it does rely more on equipment (armour class, defence adjustments, shield and absorb).

 

I don't claim to be an expert as I'm only at level 42 so far, but I have noticed that whenever I taunt an opponent to a high damage dps I need to follow that up with actual damage if I'm to pull agro onto me.

 

Another point is if possible I never run without a Might stim, but then having Biochem crew skill helps there. don't forget that as well as boosting damage it also boosts accuracy and health.

 

In endgame operations unless fully geared (and even then it'd be unorthodox) you'd never use a might stim, fortitude stim with hp and defense rating boost would be the way to go, and also accuracy for late game tanking has very small benefit in contrast to the additional mitigation you could have taken. The ideal mitigation numbers are unreachable for those who stack accuracy.

In endgame operations unless fully geared (and even then it'd be unorthodox) you'd never use a might stim, fortitude stim with hp and defense rating boost would be the way to go, and also accuracy for late game tanking has very small benefit in contrast to the additional mitigation you could have taken. The ideal mitigation numbers are unreachable for those who stack accuracy.

 

That may well be the case for endgame, as yet I've only got a Gunslinger and a sage healer through to the end, so I'll have to wait and see.

 

I'm not intentionally stacking accuracy, or strength - all my armour mods are endurance or defense biased. I still reckon that you need to follow up any taunt with damage in order to help hold agro. That means being able to hit your opponent and doing enough damage so that with the agro multipliers you have, keeps then imterested in you.

 

Still there's also the issue that many DPS focus on one target for too long, and that's true of tanks as well. I find with my Gunslinger that I regularly have to use the threat dump ability and switch targets when I draw too much agro. In the end it helps me and the tank as whilst they run to attack my Gunslinger they're not attacking the tank.

Higher the DMG of the tank guardian and the threat will rise with it.

Problem fixxed and tanking stays fun.

But do not just rise the generated threat to 200% or something like this, it would kill the fun in tanking.

So tired of trying to tank mobs on my guardian and the dps easily pulls it from me. I'm in the right form, I have all the right abilities to tank, but yet there isn't very many that generate large amounts of threat. All the taunts have such an unusually long cooldown. And it is because of this, I have seen more and more groups looking for trooper and assassin tanks instead of guardians. When it comes to single target I don't have a problem, but when it is more than one, I tend to struggle...

 

First, make sure you are in Soresu form. This ups your Threat by 100%. Helps a lot.

 

Place your guard on the Trooper or Sentinel DPS as they will almost certainly pull threat if you are not using your rotation properly.

 

Master Strike, Guardian Strike, Hilt Strike....these all generate large amounts of threat, so I would set them up on your main hotbar together for easy access. In addition, you should have an ability called Guardian Leap, hit your other DPS or Sentinel occassionally with this in order to drop their threat level during fights.

 

Also, you have a ability called FOCUSED DEFENSE as a Guardian Tank. Remove it immediately from your hotbar and NEVER use it again. That ability reduces your Threat and makes it VERY easy for a DPS to pull aggro. So many Guardians use that cause they think its a defensive ability. It is, but it does more harm than good.

 

Dont overuse your taunts. Your Taunt ability is for single targets only. To force a group to attack you need to switch to your AOE taunt, which lasts for 12 seconds, plenty of time to use Guardian Slash and other abilities to hold aggro. Also, target the strongest NPC. The weaker ones can be downed fast by a AOE attack from a DPS, so keep your aggro on the biggest guy in the mob.

Edited January 7, 2013 by DarknessInLight

First, make sure you are in Soresu form. This ups your Threat by 100%. Helps a lot.

 

Your first piece of advice is to make sure people are in their tank stance? Are you in tech support because that's the tanking equivalent of asking if their computer is on?

 

Master Strike, Guardian Strike, Hilt Strike....these all generate large amounts of threat

 

Master Strike isn't a high threat ability and it's primary value is in dealing damage without a focus cost. It's no better at generating threat than any other ability you've got. Also, the primary value of Hilt Strike and Master Strike to a Guardian tank is that they are free: if you're using them hard and early before you've had a chance to actually run out of Focus, you're doing yourself a disservice.

 

To force a group to attack you need to switch to your AOE taunt, which lasts for 12 seconds

 

The AoE taunt only lasts 6 seconds, just like the ST taunt.

Being a guardian tank, you need to control the field of battle by using all of your resourses. First, have your party members use their long stuns to reduce the number of mobs you have to agro. Then use your two hard stuns (hilt strike and staisis) to control two other mobs. Then hit the two or three gold or silver mobs to gain agro on them. You can use your force push situationally to buy some time on a non boss mob. Use your sweep if it is appropriate and doesn't break the cc's. Otherwise you can now use your aoe taunt to hold agro a little longer.

 

You don't need told agro on all of the mobs forever, just long enough for the dps (which has to go from weak mobs to strong mobs) to kill their mobs, which shouldn't be too long if they know what they are doing. Like others have said, don't use you aoe taunt until you have damaged each mob. Otherwise the agro generated wont last past the 6 secs and the healer will pick up some strays.

 

Focus defense can be used situationally in long boss fights as an added defensive cool down (use it with endure which will add some effectiveness). But you have to use a taunt right afterwards or you will lose threat quickly bc FD has a threat drop.

 

If you are losing agro on mobs after doing the above, it means your dps is attacking in the wrong order or not killing fast enough. DPS should never be starting on the strongest mob. They should kill weak to strong and by the time they get to the strong, you should have such a threat lead that they can't catch up. If they start on strong, tell them to stop or they have to eat that mob on their own.

 

For one boss mobs, tell the dps to give you a few seconds to work through a rotation and then attack. If you have a better geared dps, put gaurd on them. Save your taunts for if you lose agro or if the boss has a threat drop mechanic.

 

Let me know if you have any questions. If you do the above, you shouldn't have too much trouble holding agro except where there is a huge gear disparity with the dps. Guardians have to do more "work" to gain and hold agro over the other two, but they hold agro just fine if you work it right.

The previous poster is spot on: DPS should be burning the weaker enemies. You should only have to worry about tanking the elites in the group. There usually aren't more than 4 of them. Use your AOE taunt, and attack each of them 2 or 3 times. That should be sufficient to stop them from attacking the healer. Then focus on one of them. At that point, the DPS should be done burning the weaks, and can join in on the elite you've been pounding on.

 

Admittedly, my experience is with Heroics and hard mode FPs. I don't do operations, so that experience might be different.

 

Also, I play a hybrid Guardian. I forget the exact breakdown, but I only have around 17 points in the Defense tree. The rest are in Vigilance. That helps raise my own DPS, thereby generating greater threat. I don't have problems maintaining aggro. Yes, DPS occasionally pull a mob off of me, but it's rare enough that my single-enemy Taunt is always ready, so I just use that and the problem is solved.

Master Strike isn't a high threat ability and it's primary value is in dealing damage without a focus cost. It's no better at generating threat than any other ability you've got. Also, the primary value of Hilt Strike and Master Strike to a Guardian tank is that they are free: if you're using them hard and early before you've had a chance to actually run out of Focus, you're doing yourself a disservice.

 

Master Strike does decent damage and has a mid-range cooldown. I use it early in my opening rotation so its second use is available sooner.

 

Also it doesn't matter focus-wise if you use it when you are empty or half-full. The only time you wouldn't want to use it is if you have a full bar, and taking a hit will waste focus generation.

Your first piece of advice is to make sure people are in their tank stance? Are you in tech support because that's the tanking equivalent of asking if their computer is on?

 

You won't believe how many tanks are not in the proper stance. Most of the time it's the simplest thing causing the biggest problem.

 

Master Strike isn't a high threat ability and it's primary value is in dealing damage without a focus cost. It's no better at generating threat than any other ability you've got. Also, the primary value of Hilt Strike and Master Strike to a Guardian tank is that they are free: if you're using them hard and early before you've had a chance to actually run out of Focus, you're doing yourself a disservice.

 

I stand corrected.

I agree with the OP - the design of the guardian tank is woeful, and it really needs work to make it a more viable tank. Let's list the problems:

 

* no ranged AoE opener to draw initial threat. Instead you have to hope that the enemies are bunched up enough when you leap in and hit your sweep.

* your one >10m ranged ability, saber throw, has a relatively long cool down and a minimum range. So you can't target switch to draw threat from all around like a vanguard can. You can mix it up a bit with blade storm, I guess, and hope your focus levels are good enough.

* no pull. How many times have you had to trot over to the guy attacking your healer or dps to try and get aggro from them?

* the most important threat generating ability, guardian slash, is at it's most effective typically 5 GCDs into the fight (saber throw->force leap->sweep->sundering strike->guardian slash). By the time you hit it for the first time, aggro is all over the place and enemies are scattering to chase after other players. It makes catching them in the small AoE very hard. The weird cone shape of the AoE just makes it a lottery, too. It really just needs to be a simple radius, like force sweep.

* the other threat generator, hilt strike, is useless against most champion mobs and bosses, since most are immune to stuns. But you still hit it anyway, even though it does pathetic damage, because what else are you going to do?

EDIT: * and another annoyance - the focus building mechanism requires that you be hit a lot to build energy. If you lose threat, it can spiral, since it can be hard to build focus up again to pull threat back - better hope Combat Focus is on cool down. If you're in an op as the off-tank, you'll also often have focus issues.

 

Like Kitru said, I think they need to buff the crap out of guardian slash. Make it a full 360 hit (like force sweep), and maybe reduce the cooldown - it's not like it hits so hard that it needs to be on a 15s cooldown for balance reasons. Also increase guardian tank dps, which is the worst of any class in the game.

 

As it stands, yes, you can get by by spamming the crap out of your taunts, asking people to give you time to build aggro and hoping that the rest of the group does their job (killing the peripheral shooters first and hitting their threat dumps when they rip it from you), but it's not exactly fun. And in pugs, you can't always rely on everybody else doing their job.

Edited January 22, 2013 by SleepyKing

Just to add a couple tips for anyone that happens to wander across this thread...

 

One strategy is to saber throw the mob standing away from the group, then leap to the group of baddies. Follow that with a Sweep and you've got enough threat to burn most normal/strong mobs. Keep in mind that this isn't always a great idea - some mobs will leap to YOU after your saber throw, and then you're in a sticky situation. But that's just part of learning the fights.

 

Another tip that might be helpful is to save your AoE taunt. Let the troopers/slingers with the crazy AoE do the job of gathering the mobs up, then taunt them after they've done the threat building for you. If you pay attention, you can AoE taunt before your DPS actually take damage and you use their high damage AoE to build threat.

 

When chaos breaks loose, keep an eye on health meters. A well timed Guardian Leap can buy you a couple seconds to figure out which baddie is shooting your DPS.

Just to add a couple tips for anyone that happens to wander across this thread...

 

One strategy is to saber throw the mob standing away from the group, then leap to the group of baddies. Follow that with a Sweep and you've got enough threat to burn most normal/strong mobs. Keep in mind that this isn't always a great idea - some mobs will leap to YOU after your saber throw, and then you're in a sticky situation. But that's just part of learning the fights.

 

Another tip that might be helpful is to save your AoE taunt. Let the troopers/slingers with the crazy AoE do the job of gathering the mobs up, then taunt them after they've done the threat building for you. If you pay attention, you can AoE taunt before your DPS actually take damage and you use their high damage AoE to build threat.

 

When chaos breaks loose, keep an eye on health meters. A well timed Guardian Leap can buy you a couple seconds to figure out which baddie is shooting your DPS.

 

Tips are great,

 

The main issue is DPS 99.9999% of the time, as soon as you saber throw a mob. The marauder spazzes out and leaps to the nearest Champion mob, and proceeds to unload his manhood on it. Or its a bounty hunter who lets loose on a pack of mobs as soon as you leap in, so when you finally land on that one mob. The other 4 are half way to the BH, to slap him in the face.

 

My curse as of late is the rash of sorcs / assassins, who think their knock back is there AoE. I really do /facepalm ever time I get all the mobs together and they proceed to knock them out of groups AoE.

I thought I would add a few thoughts since I run a guardian tank a lot. I agree it can be a bit of a challenge, but I think that is what makes it fun. Anyways, here is what works for me.

 

1- I run a hybrid spec. 17/24/0. I like overhead slash a lot more then guardian slash and having Force Sweep as a free ability helps a lot. I also take 1 point of Force rush. Yes, force rush. Result is that I crit on something like 50% or more of my blade storms (or dispatch), which helps a lot with threat on bosses. You give up a bit of the ability to control large mobs (although Awe CD is reduced to make up for it a bit), but I have never had that be an issue in the Ops I run (and I've run them all). If the op is wiping on trash, the problem is bigger then the tanks ability to hold threat..... that's what CCs are for.

 

2- Put guard on the biggest DPSer in the group if they keep pulling threat.

 

3- Make sure your taunts easily accessible. I use the "G" key personally.

 

4- Don't try to hold threat on everything. Thats not your job and you can't really do it even if you want to. DPS is going to have to be able to handle themselves against trash and should be killing weak to strong as others have pointed out. Just worry about the big ones.

 

5- Switch targets occasionally if you need to. Get threat on one guy, then switch targets, attack and taunt somebody else for a GCD or two, then switch back. Then force sweep them both while they attack you.

 

6- Make sure you have target of target enabled on your screen. Watch it closely on bosses and in important pulls. If you see you lost threat, use your taunt immediately. You can usually get threat back before the boss even gets an attack off.

 

7- Make sure folks know what their threat dump is and are using it if you are having problems. The best tanks, no matter what class, will occasionally lose threat to a well geared gunslinger who knows his rotation and hits a few big crits. Same goes for other DPS classes as well. Heck, my biggest threat puller is another guardian.... he is Vigilance spec with all BIS gear and sometimes just hammers out damage on those MS procs.

 

Hope that helps a bit for somebody.

I'd really like to see Bioware fix the Guardian threat, because it's really bad. And as other people have mentioned here in this thread, so is the damage output (as a tank). It's simply sad to see such an iconic class being broken.

 

I'm the GM of a raiding guild, and we've had a lot of problems based on the fact that most of our tanks have been Guardians. It's a popular class (Why wouldn't it be, right?), so there's a lot of Guardians about. The very best of the best barely scrape by, and the rest are quite frankly a problem to their raid group. I'm talking about scenarios where you have four DPSers able to pull 1800-2000 DPS on their own (5-10 min ops dummy parse), and doing even more DPS in an actual raid where you have all armor debuffs, etc. Naturally, we make the DPSers dump aggro religiously every time their ability is off cooldown, but in many bossfights that's still not enough. Especially where bosses reset aggro. With two tanks in the group, there's only two guards to go around, and there's four DPS! I could go on and on, but I think we all get the picture.

 

The problem lies with the Guardian tanks' threat, and everyone who's tried playing a Guardian and another tank class knows this. Even mediocre Vanguards and Shadows can manage to keep aggro in most situations, but like I said, it takes an extraordinarily good Guardian to do the same, and it's still hard work keeping the threat up. Where other tanks can do without using taunts in their rotation, a Guardian can't. I have a Guardian and a Shadow tank myself, and there's a world of difference between the two. The Shadow's threat is a lot better even though my Guardian has better gear.

 

I seriously hope Bioware does something about the Guardian soon, because they're in dire need of an overhaul. A good start would be to streamline the skills a bit. Certain strikes (like Slash) are next to useless. Other skills, like Opportune Strike and Pommel Strike might as well be combined. Guardian Slash needs a lower cooldown, and the fact that you need 5 stacks of Sunder Armor (to make it an AoE) and Force Sweep only adds 4 is just annoying. Hilt Strike has a 1min cooldown, simply because it's a stun (I presume). Guardians could really use a second "high threat" ability, but since Hilt Strike is a stun, it would break PvP if Bioware were to lower the cooldown to something like 8-15 sec. It's a mess!

 

I'm not too happy about the Vigilance DPS either (which is not the topic of this thread, I know). I can do about 1675 DPS (5-10min ops dummy parse) max, in fully tweaked 61 gear with 63 hilt (which is plain bad compared to Sentinel/Commando/Gunslinger/etc.). Considering the fact that Guardians actually have an armor debuff should make it one of the classes that actually performs better than others on an ops dummy. Again, I'm presuming any changes made to improve Vigilance DPS would break PvP, so of course, and as usual, the PvE aspect of the class suffers.

 

People keep telling me Sentinels and Gunslingers being "pure" DPS classes should do more DPS. But that's not mentioned in the advanced class selection, is it? I wanted to be DPS with a lightsaber. Not dualweilding, not double-bladed, just one single lightsaber, because that's what I think is cool. So I chose Guardian DPS because of that. Who knew I'd end up shooting myself in the foot. They do lower DPS than Sentinels, they don't have Inspiration and they can't CC. What's the benefit of having a Guardian in a raid group again? Having a 10 sec tank backup in case of emergency? I can't think of much, to be honest. This is why I decided to make my Guardian a tank, and-low and behold-they suck at that too! Pretty please with sugar on top, do something, Bioware!

Edited February 6, 2013 by Hoodling
I just elaborated a bit more now that I had more time.

]

I thought I would add a few thoughts since I run a guardian tank a lot. I agree it can be a bit of a challenge, but I think that is what makes it fun. Anyways, here is what works for me.

 

1- I run a hybrid spec. 17/24/0. I like overhead slash a lot more then guardian slash and having Force Sweep as a free ability helps a lot. I also take 1 point of Force rush. Yes, force rush. Result is that I crit on something like 50% or more of my blade storms (or dispatch), which helps a lot with threat on bosses. You give up a bit of the ability to control large mobs (although Awe CD is reduced to make up for it a bit), but I have never had that be an issue in the Ops I run (and I've run them all). If the op is wiping on trash, the problem is bigger then the tanks ability to hold threat..... that's what CCs are for.

 

2- Put guard on the biggest DPSer in the group if they keep pulling threat.

 

3- Make sure your taunts easily accessible. I use the "G" key personally.

 

4- Don't try to hold threat on everything. Thats not your job and you can't really do it even if you want to. DPS is going to have to be able to handle themselves against trash and should be killing weak to strong as others have pointed out. Just worry about the big ones.

 

5- Switch targets occasionally if you need to. Get threat on one guy, then switch targets, attack and taunt somebody else for a GCD or two, then switch back. Then force sweep them both while they attack you.

 

6- Make sure you have target of target enabled on your screen. Watch it closely on bosses and in important pulls. If you see you lost threat, use your taunt immediately. You can usually get threat back before the boss even gets an attack off.

 

7- Make sure folks know what their threat dump is and are using it if you are having problems. The best tanks, no matter what class, will occasionally lose threat to a well geared gunslinger who knows his rotation and hits a few big crits. Same goes for other DPS classes as well. Heck, my biggest threat puller is another guardian.... he is Vigilance spec with all BIS gear and sometimes just hammers out damage on those MS procs.

 

Hope that helps a bit for somebody.

The first person I have seen in these forums who uses the exact same formula I use.

1. I don't run a hybrid build because I like guardian slash. I have used a hybrid build with a Warrior and I can see why one would want too.

2. IF they keep pulling threat. So many people make the mistake of assuming that a sentinel/gunslinger/commando will always pull threat. It depends on the player. I think everything is situational.

4. I agree with this so much. If you are pure DPS, you can take normals and solo a strong. I am not going to worry about holding agro for you. Throughout the entire game you fight 1 strong and two normals, a DPS will be alright.

5. I notice alot of people don't do this. They tank in one spot. In COH, I used to run around gathering agro and kiting. This is where the weakness in gathering agro in this game shows itself for some people I guess. I think it makes the gameplay more dynamic, all the mobs are normally spread out. If I know I have agro on some toons, I switch to grab agro on another. I do not need to try and kill them, DPS would be faster at that than me anyway.