To all those that say " Tanks are supposed to take damage and not dish it out" obviously never played any other MMO, or played a tank.

 

Tanking classes are supposed to dish out damage. If a person wields a 2 handed sword they are going to hit harder than a person wielding a one handed. But a person with a one handed sword will hit more times than a person with a 2 handed, hence the term DPS ( Damage per second) .

 

If my 2 handed LS crits for less than a person wielding 2 one handers there is a problem, especially since the off hand weapon does not crit as often as the main hand. DPS Classes are not supposed to see big crit numbers unless they are a glass cannon type class like Jedi Sages. DPS classes are supposed to hit more and crit more, not hit harder.

If my Jedi Guardian crits I am supposed to see big numbers and hit like a Mac Truck, but I don't.

 

To those that say " You have a companion and your supposed to tank everything while they cut them down". In a perfect world where my companion can DPS a mob down in a reasonable amount of time, does not grab agro from other mobs, or not bug out, etc it would be the right answer. But it's not what happens.

 

To those that say " This game should stay far away from WoW" well I hate to break it to ya, there are so many aspects of this game that are like WoW anyway, so get over it. As long as we have the trinity system, vanity pets, Legacy or " Heirloom " items, loot from bosses, PvP and PvP ranked gear, mounts, etc this game is just like WoW, and WoW is just like any other MMO that came out before it and after.

 

And to add insult to injury, WoW i has tons more subs. It is in the developers best interest to learn from it's predecessors successes and make it their own.

Edited January 23, 2013 by Grendelwolf

no, no NO!!!

 

If they give tanks the ability to do just as much damage as a dps, then where does that leave the dps? That was one thing that pissed me off about WOTLK, because I was getting out-dpsed by the bloody tanks more often than anything, which is not supposed to happen if your primarily a dps. I actually gave up playing the game shortly after, and that was just one of the many MANY reasons I left. :mad:

Is this the WoW that has tanks topping the damage meters because the vengeance mechanic is stupid?

No, the idiotic vengeance mechanic came in with Cataclysm. The OP mentions Wrath of the Lich King, where tank damage was buffed in part so that prot warriors and paladins weren't miles away in DPS from Death Knights. It was a good move and alleviated the nightmare that was leveling as a tank spec.

 

With abilities like Divine Shield and Lay on Hands, pvp against a pally tank was like fighting a raid boss. It went something like this: damage paladin tank to near death, paladin tank bubbles and heals himself to full in 2-3 seconds, damage him to near death again, paladin tank casts Lay on Hands healing himself to full, damage him to near death again (while you are taking small amounts of damage constantly), paladins bubble comes off cooldown, he bubbles and heals himself to full in a few seconds, repeat ad nauseum. DK tanks were different but the same result.

You do know Blizzard has been continuously trolling paladins since The Burning Crusade, right? When people complained about Divine Shield, any paladin with sense told blizzard to remove it so that it would quiet down the complains and would give Blizzard a reason to make changes to pallys. Hell, most proponents for Ret being something more than a lolspec were in the forefront of that, because Blizzard refused to fix ret due to abilities like Lay On Hands and Divine Shield being baseline of the paladin class.

 

--------------------

Anyway, I in part agree with the OP. I think it is doable, but within reason. Just not to the extent of WoW's vengeance mechanic, and certainly not putting tanks on par with DPS specs.

And to add insult to injury, WoW i has tons more subs. It is in the developers best interest to learn from it's predecessors successes and make it their own.

Well, WoW has been bleeding subs eversince they started making stupid decisions. It actually became a revolving door during TBC already, where every 2 new players saw at least 1 other player leave. Those numbers have changed places since then.

Why not be a hybrid? Take some skills from the Tank tree and some from the DPS tree?

no, no NO!!!

 

If they give tanks the ability to do just as much damage as a dps, then where does that leave the dps? That was one thing that pissed me off about WOTLK, because I was getting out-dpsed by the bloody tanks more often than anything, which is not supposed to happen if your primarily a dps. I actually gave up playing the game shortly after, and that was just one of the many MANY reasons I left. :mad:

 

So I'm kind of imagining you falling on the ground flailing your arms and kicking your legs. You kind of are coming off as a petulant child, you know.

 

Why not be a hybrid? Take some skills from the Tank tree and some from the DPS tree?

Because that doesn't make you good at either, in fact it makes you bad at both.

 

With abilities like Divine Shield and Lay on Hands...

You know this isn't a valid comparison because, if I'm not mistaken, no tanks have anything remotely like Lay on Hands or even any real heals. So you're really comparing apples and oranges.

So I'm kind of imagining you falling on the ground flailing your arms and kicking your legs. You kind of are coming off as a petulant child, you know.

 

So because I do not agree with you and have voiced my opinion, I am a petulant child? I am so very sorry for having an opinion of my own. I am so very sorry that I am an individual and not stepping in line with the other robots and nodding my head in agreement with everything you say.

 

Not everyone likes what you like, and not everyone is going to hate what you hate. This is a game where we have 3 distinct roles. Tank, dps, healer. Tank takes aggro and deals some damage. Healer heals the tank, and every now and again the dps if they need it. And what does dps do? They deal as much damage as they can muster while also trying to not over aggro.

 

WoW killed the very concept of that by buffing tanks to the point where they could do more damage than the dps hence it was pointless playing. Add to that the downgrading of all bosses due to the release of WOTLK, topping off the fact that cc was also killed because most people breezed through it without the need, so when Cataclysm came along people did not know what cc even meant. Raids were bypassed because they could gear up by doing heroics for badges instead of raiding. The list goes on as to why I left, so instead of making assumptions about people, I suggest you keep your opinions to yourself if you have nothing to add to the conversation except trying to belittle people.

Edited January 23, 2013 by Garanaga

To all those that say " Tanks are supposed to take damage and not dish it out" obviously never played any other MMO, or played a tank.

 

Actually I have played other MMOs, I've been a Tank in everyone of them. You must be from the "Y" generation of Tanks of the WoW days.

 

I learned from the best of them, though I wasn't the best, but I was very good and I was asked to Tank for all my friends and even groups that heard of me. Your job as a Tank, is to keep the aggro, lead the party, help keep everyone alive and take the beating of the bosses and mobs you come across. Nothing more, nothing less. That's a true Tank.

 

All this nonsense about the Tanks needs to be on top of the DPS charts is stupid. That's why they give you Aggro abilities/spells to keep the aggro on you and no one else, that's why DPS classes have aggro reduction abilities/spells to help them not to have aggro.

 

If you need more damage to keep the aggro on you, then you are doing it wrong.

So because I do not agree with you and have voiced my opinion, I am a petulant child? I am so very sorry for having an opinion of my own. I am so very sorry that I am an individual and not stepping in line with the other robots and nodding my head in agreement with everything you say.

 

Not everyone likes what you like, and not everyone is going to hate what you hate. This is a game where we have 3 distinct roles. Tank, dps, healer. Tank takes aggro and deals some damage. Healer heals the tank, and every now and again the dps if they need it. And what does dps do? They deal as much damage as they can muster while also trying to not over aggro.

 

WoW killed the very concept of that by buffing tanks to the point where they could do more damage than the dps hence it was pointless playing. Add to that the downgrading of all bosses due to the release of WOTLK, topping off the fact that cc was also killed because most people breezed through it without the need, so when Cataclysm came along people did not know what cc even meant. Raids were bypassed because they could gear up by doing heroics for badges instead of raiding. The list goes on as to why I left, so instead of making assumptions about people, I suggest you keep your opinions to yourself if you have nothing to add to the conversation except trying to belittle people.

 

Nope, its because your first comment was, "no, no NO!!!" as if you were a five year old throwing a fit. This statement alone is pretty indicative you have no room for compromise and that your argument about me not accepting that other people have opinions should really be turned on yourself. Its kind of hypocritical to claim someone else has no room for other people's sentiments and then go and respond with "no, no NO!!!" to someone else's idea, no?

 

Also, @Sinnfein_Winters, I don't think anyone is claiming that tanks should be competitive with DPS, that's certainly not my opinion anyway. I wouldn't mind the ability to do more DPS so I could get my dailies over with quicker, but I much much MUCH rather have real dual-spec in the game. I'd just switch over, do my dailies, and then switch back to tanking. The ability is sort of already there except I'm a bit neurotic about my bars and whatnot that it would take me a considerable amount of time to put all my abilities back manually (I'd have to check and re-check), so that really isn't a viable option, for me anyway.

A healer should have amazing healing power, and should be a master at keeping oother alive, one way or another. their damage should be laughable and resistance as weak as a new born

 

A dps should be a glass cannon, able to dish insane damage but weak against attack (not as weak as healers though) and with no or very weak healing power.

 

A tank should be a master of survivability, as well as a tool box to grab the attention of ennemies and keep them focus on him. His dps should be weak (not as weak as healers) and with no healing power (or weak yet uncontrolable healing power)

 

So together they form a mighty team, synergistically interacting with each other, a team whose power far beyong the simple cumulative power of individual members.

 

 

In other word

Power of the team = sum of individual power + power from synergy between player

*sigh* If tanks want to deal damage, go DPS. Its in the job description people. If tanks can do as much damage as a dps the dps role is suddenly obsolete. For all of you that disagree, look at this example.

 

Ops leader: Hey we have a jug and a marauder asking to run with us, who do we choose?

Healer: Jug, marauders do about the same dps as an immortal jug, so it will make my job easier healing him!

*Invites tank/dps hybrid*

 

Oh look snipers and marauders are right then and there no longer needed.

 

Making tanks do as much damage as a dps instantly dumb downs the game. Healers slack because they don't need to heal as much, and entire advanced classes would no longer be wanted no matter what the spec. So for all of you that think tanks should be doing a dps amount of damage, just make a dps and quit whinning, you chose your advanced class, live with it.

Has any single person in this thread suggested that tanks do as much damage as DPS?

 

Tanks doing more DPS != doing as much damage as pure DPS classes

 

Why is that such a difficult concept to grasp? Its like there are precisely two tiers of DPS and either you're on the tank level or you're on the DPS level and there is no room in the middle.

Also, @Sinnfein_Winters, I don't think anyone is claiming that tanks should be competitive with DPS, that's certainly not my opinion anyway. I wouldn't mind the ability to do more DPS so I could get my dailies over with quicker, but I much much MUCH rather have real dual-spec in the game. I'd just switch over, do my dailies, and then switch back to tanking. The ability is sort of already there except I'm a bit neurotic about my bars and whatnot that it would take me a considerable amount of time to put all my abilities back manually (I'd have to check and re-check), so that really isn't a viable option, for me anyway.

 

Gotcha, I do like the Dual Spec idea too, its simple to deal with, but in a way you can do that. Subs can respec for free, and there is a Legacy ability that allows you to respec "in the field". The Tank Advance Class does have a DPS tree, though the only problem with that is redoing the tree every single time you respec, so an easy solution, as you say, a dual spec tree would be nice to have.

Has any single person in this thread suggested that tanks do as much damage as DPS?

 

Tanks doing more DPS != doing as much damage as pure DPS classes

 

Why is that such a difficult concept to grasp? Its like there are precisely two tiers of DPS and either you're on the tank level or you're on the DPS level and there is no room in the middle.

 

Gotcha, well dual spec could easily make this case closed. Which they have confirmed they are working on, however its on the back burner. However in bioware terms who knows how long that is?

Nope, its because your first comment was, "no, no NO!!!" as if you were a five year old throwing a fit. This statement alone is pretty indicative you have no room for compromise and that your argument about me not accepting that other people have opinions should really be turned on yourself. Its kind of hypocritical to claim someone else has no room for other people's sentiments and then go and respond with "no, no NO!!!" to someone else's idea, no?

 

Also, @Sinnfein_Winters, I don't think anyone is claiming that tanks should be competitive with DPS, that's certainly not my opinion anyway. I wouldn't mind the ability to do more DPS so I could get my dailies over with quicker, but I much much MUCH rather have real dual-spec in the game. I'd just switch over, do my dailies, and then switch back to tanking. The ability is sort of already there except I'm a bit neurotic about my bars and whatnot that it would take me a considerable amount of time to put all my abilities back manually (I'd have to check and re-check), so that really isn't a viable option, for me anyway.

 

No, no, NO is my way of saying I disagree wholeheartedly. It is not a childish temper tantrum, and the fact you would view it as such makes me think it is you that has a serious mental issue you should discuss with a psychotherapist. You may disagree with me, and that is fine. You are more than entitled to your opinion. But again you are doing nothing more than trying to berate me instead of staying on topic. Do you wish to discuss the topic at hand or are you going to keep trying to continue derailing this thread?

No, no, NO is my way of saying I disagree wholeheartedly. It is not a childish temper tantrum, and the fact you would view it as such makes me think it is you that has a serious mental issue you should discuss with a psychotherapist. You may disagree with me, and that is fine. You are more than entitled to your opinion. But again you are doing nothing more than trying to berate me instead of staying on topic. Do you wish to discuss the topic at hand or are you going to keep trying to continue derailing this thread?

 

You might want to point that arm-chair psychoanalysis inward, friend.

Ofc tanks should do some damage. Ofc they shouldn´t do as much as a dps. Noone is arguing that. tanks dooing less than half as much damage as a dps, jugs and guardians closer to a third that´s what is beeing questioned.

 

Tanks should do equal damage, equal to other tanks. Dps should do more damage. How much more then ?

Well, imo tanks are ok with about 50% of a dpsser. I wouldn´t mind if they got a bit more, but 50% is fine.

 

I will say this though. Guardians and jugs need some love in the tps department. I understand why hiltstrike was nerfed, but it hurt tank "dps" and thereby threath quite abit. We need something to make up for it.

You might want to point that arm-chair psychoanalysis inward, friend.

 

That's a no to my question then is it? Very well. Since I cannot have a decent conversation with you regarding the topic at hand, I shall ignore you from now. I do not see the point in trying to converse with someone who obviously regards someone with a difference of opinion from them as acting like a child. Good day sir!

Edited January 24, 2013 by Garanaga

I love playing as a Tank but boy it kills my immersion when I have to beat on something for 5 minutes with my "Lightsaber" just to kill it. In Wotlk wow started letting Tanks do decent dmg on their own and it didn't ruin the game in anyway. Just made playing as a tank much more enjoyable. Please please purtty please.

 

LOL. Do you realize that under the current game rules (1.6x), Assassin tanks already do more damage than Merc dps? No, you probably didn't. You need to examine your skill trees a bit more and figure out how best to use them. An expert player piloting an Assassin tank can reach 900k damage output in a long (15min) warzone or about 10-15% more than Merc dps. So stop complaining and L2P.

 

Now what does this say about class balance in ToR, when a tank subclass does more damage than a dps subclass, AND is still a tank, AND has stealth as well?!

I love playing as a Tank but boy it kills my immersion when I have to beat on something for 5 minutes with my "Lightsaber" just to kill it.

 

You have not fought one mob in this game that took you 5 minutes to kill solo. Name three mobs that you have soloed in SWTOR that took you five minutes to kill. Even the final boss fights are simple affairs that only require you to move out of fairly obvious aoes.

 

Additionally, if that what you wrote had been true, beating on something for a long time because tanks are durable and, by way of tradeoffs, do less damage should have been completely immersive for you because that is precisely what tanks traditionally do.

 

Oh, and tank dps is currently ridiculous by any reasonable standard.

Edited January 24, 2013 by Eggsalicious

LOL. Do you realize that under the current game rules (1.6x), Assassin tanks already do more damage than Merc dps? No, you probably didn't. You need to examine your skill trees a bit more and figure out how best to use them. An expert player piloting an Assassin tank can reach 900k damage output in a long (15min) warzone or about 10-15% more than Merc dps. So stop complaining and L2P.

 

Now what does this say about class balance in ToR, when a tank subclass does more damage than a dps subclass, AND is still a tank, AND has stealth as well?!

 

Um...either you are mistaking a DPS assassin as a tank, or you really don't know how to play a DPS merc. In our ops last night:

 

Zorn & Toth

Assassin Tank - 512.7 DPS

DPS Merc - 1183.4 DPS

 

Firebrand & Stormcaller

Assassin Tank - 649.3 DPS

DPS Merc - 1282.2 DPS

 

Colonel Vorgath logs are off because I was on the control panel

 

Kephess

Assassin Tank - 434.6 DPS

DPS Merc - 1149.4 DPS

Um...either you are mistaking a DPS assassin as a tank, or you really don't know how to play a DPS merc. In our ops last night:

 

Zorn & Toth

Assassin Tank - 512.7 DPS

DPS Merc - 1183.4 DPS

 

Firebrand & Stormcaller

Assassin Tank - 649.3 DPS

DPS Merc - 1282.2 DPS

 

Colonel Vorgath logs are off because I was on the control panel

 

Kephess

Assassin Tank - 434.6 DPS

DPS Merc - 1149.4 DPS

 

Assassins still have the highest dps of all the tanks

No arguments there.

 

To clarify, I'm not entirely opposed to the idea of tanks doing more damage, so long as its not at the level of DPS. I can complete my dailies pretty effectively and timely with well-geared companions, but I could always stand to do them faster.

 

However, my preferred outcome would simply be a real dual-spec implementation. I honestly don't care about what my DPS looked like compared to actual DPSers so long as I can hold threat and we aren't hitting enrages.