Slowpokeking, it looks like we're at an impass.

I'm willing to concede that attractive non-progression loot drops could be added to HM LI to reward the full Columi+ player that wouldn't benefit from anything LR-5 drops.

You won't budge on anything.

Why is this so important to you? I know why this is important to me. I've already seen HM LI made easier and I've seen endgame gear made easy to obtain with little effort. I'd like for this to stop happening, at least until we have more Tier 2 flashpoints that present a challenge. (psst Bioware: Mandalorian Raiders or Collicoid War Games ...)

But you've made it very clear that you won't agree with ANY of the points I've made and it appears that you will continue to campaign for more Rakata gear drops (or an easier instance) until Bioware gives in to you.

Why? What will happen if your vision doesn't come to pass?

Why is this so important that you won't concede to a single point I've tried to make on this 26-page thread?

\I'm just trying to find some middle ground with Slowpokeking whose been arguing with me over loot drops for days now.

If the existing cosmetic benefits aren't enough, I doubt adding more will do any good unless you make them so common that they're no longer special, at which point they lose the advantage of being special.

As to dropping better loot, remember that there isn't a non-set tier equivalent to Rakata so Hm LI can't follow suit to the loot paradigm of the T1 Hm FPs (exotech gear from bosses and a columi token from the last boss). The paradigm is follows is still an upgrade over the previous tier (columi tokens from bosses and a Rakata token plus an extra Columi token, both for slots that only drop from final bosses of Ops, from the last boss).

Regardless, most of that loot became redundant as soon as the developers provided BH comms from the GF daily. The only loot that *actually* matters is stuff better than BH gear because you can get all the BH gear you need running HM FPs through the groupfinder.

The only Rakata tier gear compromise that I would be willing to make would be to have each boss drop a random grade mod, enhancement, or armoring (though not necessarily the armoring since that is tied to the specific rating of a piece of gear and might be a bit excessive). It's not a full piece of gear, but it's definitely going to be an upgrade for Columi (assuming that they're not using the wrong mod/enhancement) and, depending on the specific enhancement gained, could be an upgrade over an existing mod or enhancement for some ill-itemized Rakata or BH gear they've already got.

A mod or enhancement would provide a discrete and tangible gearing improvement and making it Rakata gear would make it provide the desired improvement in loot tables. The cosmetic rewards are already there for the people that want them. The only improvement in the loot table needed is providing a tangible gearing improvement without making it too strong. Adding random mods/enhancements as drops could do that pretty well.

If the existing cosmetic benefits aren't enough, I doubt adding more will do any good unless you make them so common that they're no longer special, at which point they lose the advantage of being special.

 

As to dropping better loot, remember that there isn't a non-set tier equivalent to Rakata so Hm LI can't follow suit to the loot paradigm of the T1 Hm FPs (exotech gear from bosses and a columi token from the last boss). The paradigm is follows is still an upgrade over the previous tier (columi tokens from bosses and a Rakata token plus an extra Columi token, both for slots that only drop from final bosses of Ops, from the last boss).

 

Regardless, most of that loot became redundant as soon as the developers provided BH comms from the GF daily. The only loot that *actually* matters is stuff better than BH gear because you can get all the BH gear you need running HM FPs through the groupfinder.

 

The only Rakata tier gear compromise that I would be willing to make would be to have each boss drop a random grade mod, enhancement, or armoring (though not necessarily the armoring since that is tied to the specific rating of a piece of gear and might be a bit excessive). It's not a full piece of gear, but it's definitely going to be an upgrade for Columi (assuming that they're not using the wrong mod/enhancement) and, depending on the specific enhancement gained, could be an upgrade over an existing mod or enhancement for some ill-itemized Rakata or BH gear they've already got.

 

A mod or enhancement would provide a discrete and tangible gearing improvement and making it Rakata gear would make it provide the desired improvement in loot tables. The cosmetic rewards are already there for the people that want them. The only improvement in the loot table needed is providing a tangible gearing improvement without making it too strong. Adding random mods/enhancements as drops could do that pretty well.

There are Rakata ear pieces/implants, as well as some good relics. Let the first bosses drop it.

There are Rakata ear pieces/implants, as well as some good relics. Let the first bosses drop it.

I could see dropping the Rak grade ears, implants, and relics insteads of columi tokens, as long as they were BoP. Of course, my suggestion to drop grade 25 BoP mods/enhs was in addition to their current loot tables. The problem with changing the loot tables so that the columi tokens aren't guaranteed (which is what would happen if you added the earpieces/implants/relics to the loot table) is that some people do want those tokens. Adding the mods provides a partial piece of gear that isn't as useful to someone fresh as an entire piece of gear while simultaneously being potentially useful to someone that already has the relevant piece of gear in the first place.

The effort to finish this FP is not worth the reward. It has been like this since the beginning and the only reason i do it is for the weekly to gear my alts. I never liked this instance and it is not because I cannot finish it. I will hit 32k Hp on my shadow tank soon and I one shot everything in 20 mins tops with the guildies. **** FP, waste of time for BH comms. I'd rather bang my nuts against a tree than run this!!

PS: my hatred is probably a result of the 99% pugs who have no gear, have never done it in normal, and cannot follow simple instructions.

There are Rakata ear pieces/implants, as well as some good relics. Let the first bosses drop it.

No... The loot table is fine just the way it is.

Lets take a look at the drops from every single boss in the other FP's and compare them with the drops with LI

Esseles:

• Columi Bracers
  
• Tionese Belt & Ear
  
• Energized Legs
  

Battle of Ilum:

• Columi Offhand
  
• Tionese Bracers & Ear
  
• Energized Helmet
  

Maelstrom Prison:

• Columi boots
  
• Tionese belt
  
• Energized gloves
  

Directive 7:

• Columi Pants
  
• Tionese Bracers
  
• Energized chest
  
• Relic (124 rating)
  

Taral V summary:

• Columi Hands
  
• Tionese implant
  
• Energized boots
  
• Relic (124 rating)
  

False emperor

• Columi Chest
  
• Tionese Gloves, Offhand, and Implant
  

Kaon Under Siege:

• Columi headgear
  
• Tionese mainhand, ranged offhand
  
• Xenotech gloves & waist
  

Now lets look at Lost island:

• Rakata Chest
  
• Columi boots, Pants, Mainhand
  
• Relic (126 rating)
  

No where did i see lost island droping a single peice of Tionese but only Columi or the Rakata chest. No where did i see the normal HM's drop a Rakata peice. Regular HM's only drop columi off the last boss compared to Lost islands every boss except for the last which drops the Rakata chest.

From a flashpoint viewpoint - Lost Island already drops beter gear than all the other HM FP's. Lost island is not an operation, its a Tier2 flashpoint which means it will be significantly harder than the tier 1's. With a cordinated team, this flashpoint is easy to finish. If you are having trouble with it, master SM Lost Island and then come back to HM when you feel confident.

The rewards drops on Lost Island SUCK.

All bosses with the exception of Dr. Lorrick drop crap. it's all Columi equipment and that stuff is worthless at this point as far as gear progression goes due to obvious fact that 95% of the players doing Lost Island ALREADY HAVE THAT STUFF!!! So, a smart person only does LI until he or she gets their Columi MainHand & Rakata Armor after that you should never return their ever again. BTW KAON's last boss now drops the Terisa Elite Mount and what mount does Dr. Lorrick drop........NOTHING!

I talked with Jesse Sky (Lead Flashpoints and Operations Designer) about the difficulty of Lost Island and its rewards, and he shared his insight about these questions.

 

He mentioned that Lost Island is balanced very tightly for a group in Tionese-quality gear, but that because the boss mechanics are heavily execution-based, many players prefer to overgear for it. Small mistakes can easily wipe the group, so bringing Ops level gear is great insurance, even if it isn't required. The loot quality reflects this - players who take the risk of going in with Tionese and Columi gear will be rewarded. Players with Ops level gear are likely there for the Black Hole Commendations right now.

 

That's not to say that we won't be re-examining gear progression going forward. It just happened that when Lost Island was released (1.2), it made sense to us to offer new players and alternate route to the Rakata chest and Columi main hand while infusing the weekly Flashpoint missions with a bit more challenge for players who had geared past most Flashpoints.

Jesse Sky is a MORON!

Tionese Gear!!! are you smoking CRACK!!!!

Maybe you could do that if you were part of the FREAKING A-TEAM! Other wise, it's suicide PERIOD!

what mount does Dr. Lorrick drop..

Lhosan Thunderbolt

Maybe you could do that if you were part of the FREAKING A-TEAM! Other wise, it's suicide PERIOD!

I love it when a plan comes together!

GalaxyStrong, you're overstating the difficulty of HM LI.

Are you on Begeren Colony? If you have mumble or ventrilo, I'd be happy to teach you how to run it cleanly, just send me a PM.

No... The loot table is fine just the way it is.

 

Lets take a look at the drops from every single boss in the other FP's and compare them with the drops with LI

 

No where did i see lost island droping a single peice of Tionese but only Columi or the Rakata chest. No where did i see the normal HM's drop a Rakata peice. Regular HM's only drop columi off the last boss compared to Lost islands every boss except for the last which drops the Rakata chest.

 

From a flashpoint viewpoint - Lost Island already drops beter gear than all the other HM FP's. Lost island is not an operation, its a Tier2 flashpoint which means it will be significantly harder than the tier 1's. With a cordinated team, this flashpoint is easy to finish. If you are having trouble with it, master SM Lost Island and then come back to HM when you feel confident.

Ugh no, right now the non final bosses of Tier 1 HM FP drop Columi earpieces/implants and Exotech, along with some relic, so every boss could drop something useful to tionese groups. But LI need columi to beat for most of the people, so columi(except MH) drops are useless to them.

Wauw 26 pages of nonsense..

Tier 1 hardmodes drop stuff people already have - yet people still run them

Tier 2 hardmodes drop stuff people already have - yet people still run them..

Fresh 50's can play a few tier 1 HM's for columi pieces, then go to LI HM and get a significant upgrade with a rakata chest and a columi mainhand..

It's perfect.. I'd even go so far as to say that perhaps LI HM drops loot better than it should..

GalaxyStrong, you're overstating the difficulty of HM LI.

 

Are you on Begeren Colony? If you have mumble or ventrilo, I'd be happy to teach you how to run it cleanly, just send me a PM.

I can run it fine and I have the rakata chest and columi mainhand. It's just pointless after you grab the 2 pieces that Dr. Lorrick drops.

Im not saying its overly difficult assuming you have proper gear. Im saying Jesse Sky is F-ing crazy to suggest you try doing this FP in Tionese Gear (XD that's crackhead talk).

BTW, Thank you for the offer but I'm on Harbinger & I have to admit I did not know Dr. L drops mount but my previous points still stand.

Wauw 26 pages of nonsense..

 

Tier 1 hardmodes drop stuff people already have - yet people still run them

 

Tier 2 hardmodes drop stuff people already have - yet people still run them..

 

Fresh 50's can play a few tier 1 HM's for columi pieces, then go to LI HM and get a significant upgrade with a rakata chest and a columi mainhand..

 

It's perfect.. I'd even go so far as to say that perhaps LI HM drops loot better than it should..

No, Tier 1 HM drops level 50 columi earpieces/implants, exotech and some relics, so people with tionese can get upgrade from most of the bosses. That's not the case of LI for columi team.

@GalaxyStrong, I get what you're saying.

Now, when that post showed up from Jesse, there were two teams that took their stocked up Tionese commendations bought the gear, and gave it a run to see if could be done. According to their posts (earlier in this thread), they were able to do it.

What I take Jesse's answer to mean, is that a well coordinated group, in vent, who knew the fights, could do it in Tionese.

Myself, I'm part of an active guild and we level many alts. I've brought 5 alts through HM LI, and three of them did HM LI in 1/2 Columi and got good upgrades not just from Lorrick but the other bosses as well. Also note that these three times the others in the group were experienced guildies bringing THEIR new alts so none of us had great gear at the time.

Now, compare this to my first level 50. I was in 1/2 black hole and had over thirty fails in a row on LR-5. Yet one day, I met another player who took me and 2 others who had never made it past LR-5, and he brought us through the entire instance with very little difficulty. The difference was, he was able to explain the strategies in such a way that it made sense and was easy to follow.

This is why I feel that HM LI is all about understanding the strategy, position, execution and reaction time, not about gear.

Edit:

Just as an example, I used to use a keybind on my interrupt. However, I would usually catch LR-5's incinerate after 1 or 2 stacks. That's a LOT of pressure to put on the healer. He had be bind it to the "browser forward" button on my mouse, right next to my thumb. The next time we ran the fight, I caught every incinerate at 0 stacks except for one, which I caught at 1 stack.

The healer went from force drained halfway through the fight to being able to keep up with everything.

@GalaxyStrong, I get what you're saying.

 

Now, when that post showed up from Jesse, there were two teams that took their stocked up Tionese commendations bought the gear, and gave it a run to see if could be done. According to their posts (earlier in this thread), they were able to do it.

 

What I take Jesse's answer to mean, is that a well coordinated group, in vent, who knew the fights, could do it in Tionese.

 

Myself, I'm part of an active guild and we level many alts. I've brought 5 alts through HM LI, and three of them did HM LI in 1/2 Columi and got good upgrades not just from Lorrick but the other bosses as well. Also note that these three times the others in the group were experienced guildies bringing THEIR new alts so none of us had great gear at the time.

 

Now, compare this to my first level 50. I was in 1/2 black hole and had over thirty fails in a row on LR-5. Yet one day, I met another player who took me and 2 others who had never made it past LR-5, and he brought us through the entire instance with very little difficulty. The difference was, he was able to explain the strategies in such a way that it made sense and was easy to follow.

 

This is why I feel that HM LI is all about understanding the strategy, position, execution and reaction time, not about gear.

So that's not the majority, and they already ran this FP before a few times, just did it for a challenge, that' a lot different than people who are new to this FP and do it with tionese, especially pugs.

So that's not the majority, and they already ran this FP before a few times, just did it for a challenge, that' a lot different than people who are new to this FP and do it with tionese, especially pugs.

I would like to have a dialog without on this subject, but I'm frustrated that you don't respond to many of my points. I've taken a gander through your post history, and you have interesting and insightful things to say on other subjects, so I don't get why you gloss over things I say and don't respond to them.

I'd appreciate an answer to a few things:

1. Why is this so important to you? (see earlier post p26)

2. I tried to compare loot drops in HM LI to loot drops in Story Mode TfB. You finally responded referencing Hard Mode. HM drops Dread Guard (63) gear. Storymode drops Rakata. Yet most players that go into Storymode TfB will already have Rakata. I think this is a completely fair comparison.

3. What is wrong with the concept that a skilled player, running HM LI with less than full columi gets greater benefit than a player that can only run it in full Columi or better?

I would like to have a dialog without on this subject, but I'm frustrated that you don't respond to many of my points. I've taken a gander through your post history, and you have interesting and insightful things to say on other subjects, so I don't get why you gloss over things I say and don't respond to them.

 

I'd appreciate an answer to a few things:

 

1. Why is this so important to you? (see earlier post p26)

2. I tried to compare loot drops in HM LI to loot drops in Story Mode TfB. You finally responded referencing Hard Mode. HM drops Dread Guard (63) gear. Storymode drops Rakata. Yet most players that go into Storymode TfB will already have Rakata. I think this is a completely fair comparison.

3. What is wrong with the concept that a skilled player, running HM LI with less than full columi gets greater benefit than a player that can only run it in full Columi or better?

1. I just want this game to get better, I don't need anything from LI now.

2. Because TFB is the place to drop the best gear in the game right now, so people have to get familiar with it and beat SM first. LI is not something like it, it's easier to get better gears from other places.

3. Because the drop of FP should depend on the gear of the majority who can do it, the majority don't get benefit from the first 2 bosses.

1. I just want this game to get better, I don't need anything from LI now.

2. Because TFB is the place to drop the best gear in the game right now, so people have to get familiar with it and beat SM first. LI is not something like it, it's easier to get better gears from other places.

3. Because the drop of FP should depend on the gear of the majority who can do it, the majority don't get benefit from the first 2 bosses.

Thank you.

Okay, so here is my take on this.

Firstly, I think that what would make this game better would be to have more challenging flashpoints. When HM LI was introduced back in 1.2, it was in part responding to player requests for something challenging. The Tier 1 flashpoints are very easy to master. I guess we disagree on what would be better in this regard.

This brings me to the second point. I agree that SM TfB is a good place to learn the fights. Personally, I extend that same philosophy to HM LI as well. There are some particularly tricky mechanics in HM LI. Such as interrupt within 0.7 seconds of the cast. Or time your force/energy regeneration with the Sav-Rak chest pound. Or remember to cleanse the green goo in Lorrick. The mechanics in EC and TfB are different, but are also quite difficult. Learning to master HM LI results a player that can run harder Ops. If you took 8 people that couldn't do HM LI, would you expect them to be able to do SM EC or SM TfB?

In general, I don't have an objection to your point on the majority getting a benefit to gear drops from content. My fear is this: Bioware is very very very unlikely to increase the gear rewards on HM LI. To my knowledge, they've never adjusted loot tables up a full grade on any content (e.g. 56 to 58).

But if enough people demand that the risk/reward needs to be fixed, if they won't fix the reward, they may fix the risk instread (which they've already done). I'm championing not touching HM LI because I think the only direction BW is likely to take is make it easier, which I feel would be a bad thing.

So that's my case. What do you think?

Im not saying its overly difficult assuming you have proper gear. Im saying Jesse Sky is F-ing crazy to suggest you try doing this FP in Tionese Gear (XD that's crackhead talk).

Except groups have done it in Tionese, so, uh, yeah.

Would you like me to get a group together when 1.6 hits (with free Tionese) and record a run of it?

Except groups have done it in Tionese, so, uh, yeah.

 

Would you like me to get a group together when 1.6 hits (with free Tionese) and record a run of it?

Doesn't the "A" in A-Team stand for Aurojiin?

Except groups have done it in Tionese, so, uh, yeah.

But that's like saying TFB SM should be a 4 man flashpoint instead of an 8 man operation because someone in the world somewhere has beaten half the bosses on it in a 4 man...

In case you miss the point the recommended gear for the content should be what the "majority" can complete it in, not what one or two leet guilds managed to scrape through it in.

I've never had a successful game of LI HM where I had to carry someone with 15k hp and under, especially in a PuG situation.

...

 

In case you miss the point the recommended gear for the content should be what the "majority" can complete it in, not what one or two leet guilds managed to scrape through it in.

 

....

"Should Be" is a subjective thing. Jesse Sky thinks that it "should be" a difficult flashpoint, and the gear rewards are for those who can do it with less than Columi/Rakata. I happen to agree with him.

While doing the FP in only Tionese is surely a very difficult thing, doing it in less than FULL Columi (with a Rakata Chest and a Columi MH no less) is much more within reach.

Bioware is not going to up the loot table from 56 to 58 across the whole flashpoint. So the only thing these complaints could accomplish is for them to nerf it yet again, to which I say, "Please don't"

"Should Be" is a subjective thing. Jesse Sky thinks that it "should be" a difficult flashpoint, and the gear rewards are for those who can do it with less than Columi/Rakata. I happen to agree with him.

 

While doing the FP in only Tionese is surely a very difficult thing, doing it in less than FULL Columi (with a Rakata Chest and a Columi MH no less) is much more within reach.

 

Bioware is not going to up the loot table from 56 to 58 across the whole flashpoint. So the only thing these complaints could accomplish is for them to nerf it yet again, to which I say, "Please don't"

No, from all the good groups(beat the whole FP) I've had, there is only 1 group got 2 columi characters, one of that is my sorcerer, others all have rakata or higher.

Since it need 56 to beat, why can't it have 58 drop through out the way, and it's not like you can skip LR-5 or Sav Rak.

No, from all the good groups(beat the whole FP) I've had, there is only 1 group got 2 columi characters, one of that is my sorcerer, others all have rakata or higher.

 

Since it need 56 to beat, why can't it have 58 drop through out the way, and it's not like you can skip LR-5 or Sav Rak.

It takes my normal group about 8 minutes from starting the FP to clearing LR-5. If you honestly think Rakata drops should be farmable THAT quickly I don't know what to tell you. The best compromises I've seen was Kitru's suggestion of dropping some Rakata level mods and to bring the comm drops up to Columi instead of Tionese.

It has been cleared by multiple full Tionese groups so it does not require 56 to beat. I'd also like to highlight that you can't compare clearing content in the minimum possible gear and undermanning content with much better gear than required.

I've cleared this with a PUG in less than Columi gear. No one had ANY Rakata, just about half Columi half Tionese. Yes we wiped several (read many many) times, but we got it down. In general, gear gives you a buffer on hitting mechanics, in this FP, hitting mechanics gives you a buffer on (what is accepted as, but not intended as) the minimum gear.

"Should Be" is a subjective thing. Jesse Sky thinks that it "should be" a difficult flashpoint, and the gear rewards are for those who can do it with less than Columi/Rakata. I happen to agree with him.

There's a difference between being difficult and being a gear check, the shaclaw and sav rak are a huge gear check on healers unless you happen to be some sort of healing god most would never be able to heal through the spike damage in just tionese.

Not only that but gear is a good experience check in a small way also, someone who has tionese generally has just started endgame. Unless they already have MMO experience or happen to be playing on their 5th alt and have already done the fights a zillion times to have it down to routine they are not going to be very effective than someone who at least ground their way to full columi and done a ton more flashpoints and sm ops to have far more experience of endgame mechanics.

The mechanics of this flashpoint are reminiscent of denova and tfb where one slight mistake at any point can wipe you therefore saying someone almost fresh out of class story can handle it is a bit silly to say IMO.

As for gear drops, I'm not saying it should give you all your rakata pieces (even if rakata's really nothing much any more) however it should give you some reward that suits the experience and difficulty. If not gear then random cartel items, mats, mounts, pets or anything bar some tionese crystals and gear you can farm from another flashpoint with little effort.

At the end of the day the author of this thread made this probably because they were frustrated at the rubbish drops and I agree with them, the drops need to be more fun and useful if I'm going to play it more than once a week.