uh...I don't have enough info to get involved in the wall bang thing. what I meant was it was devil, not an LD50 guy, who said he didn't give a crud about regs and would screw around in them, presumably farm, and as you said, wall bang. it wasn't just him. I've seen similar sentiments from other ppl in po5 that were not LD50. not holding the latter up as saints or anything. just pointing out that, in this case, they weren't endorsing or condoning abusing ppl in regs or ignoring objectives in regs just to mess around.

Nothing personal, but read it again..

I almost forgot about the "wall bang" thing. Here is my opinion on that. Of course it is OP. It is the most OP thing ever put in the game. *snip*

 

I'll admit I will abuse the **** out of in regs and I think most people won't mind that because its just regs. Being on Pot5 for a month now I can tell the majority of the sever could give a **** less about a win or loss in regs by they way everyone plays and rage quits.

.

He was clearly saying that abuse of mechanics are irrelevant in regs, and from experience I can tell you that the majority of competitive players carry this attitude for whatever reason (as Jade pointed out, you can't assume the other side ISN'T using them).

Add this knowledge to the advantages Premades already carry, and it's a recipe for disaster. Not only are they likely more coordinated, skilled, geared, better composed, and more versed in the nuances of each map, but now we have verifiable proof that at least some (if not most) use broken mechanics to beat opponents that they should already beat anyways.

There is growing distaste for competitive players in the PvP community. It is unfortunate that you primarily see them in premades, because that leads to the perception that ALL premades are of the same mindset. We live in a world where perception DOES equal reality (i.e. it doesn't matter what it was, it's what it looks like), and it drives players away en masse.

Nothing personal, but read it again..

 

 

He was clearly saying that abuse of mechanics are irrelevant in regs, and from experience I can tell you that the majority of competitive players carry this attitude for whatever reason (as Jade pointed out, you can't assume the other side ISN'T using them).

 

Add this knowledge to the advantages Premades already carry, and it's a recipe for disaster. Not only are they likely more coordinated, skilled, geared, better composed, and more versed in the nuances of each map, but now we have verifiable proof that at least some (if not most) use broken mechanics to beat opponents that they should already beat anyways.

 

There is growing distaste for competitive players in the PvP community. It is unfortunate that you primarily see them in premades, because that leads to the perception that ALL premades are of the same mindset. We live in a world where perception DOES equal reality (i.e. it doesn't matter what it was, it's what it looks like), and it drives players away en masse.

you are very whiny today.

you are very whiny today.

And you are very.... disagreeable. Everyday.

It's not whining. It's calling spades..... spades.

You're missing the point.

 

If you take 16 players and willfully group 4 of the best (a coordinated, experience premade) onto one team and distribute the rest randomly, it is inherently more prone to imbalance than if those 4 skilled players were also distributed at random.

 

You will always have a much better shot at something resembling balance if the bads and the goods are equally distributed across both teams as much as is possible. Balance = fun.

 

Nothing is foolproof. Bad matchups will still happen. But back-to-back-to-back curbstompings that drive players away will not.

 

The good players should help drag up the bad players on both sides. The good players should NOT gang up on one side and obliterate the other side. That drives casual pvpers (and even worn-out hardcore ones like me) away from the game.

You're forgetting that the "Good Players" quing will not be randomly distributed between two teams that will necessarily play against each other. There are two separate factions, a Republic player will never be put with an Imperial team, and the ques will still be based on first come first serve, so if 4 good players que at the same time, they are likely to get grouped together anyway. Meaning, you're still going to have premades even with a Single-Que only bracket. Random does not equal more fair, by any measure whatsoever. It's not in any way shape or form a fix for anything and will only bring more frustration and WZ leaving to "Queue dodge" bad players you don't want be in a queue cycle with or to try and join the same WZ that your friend got into.

Nothing personal, but read it again..

 

 

He was clearly saying that abuse of mechanics are irrelevant in regs, and from experience I can tell you that the majority of competitive players carry this attitude for whatever reason (as Jade pointed out, you can't assume the other side ISN'T using them). .

how is this not what I said? lol

You're forgetting that the "Good Players" quing will not be randomly distributed between two teams that will necessarily play against each other. There are two separate factions, a Republic player will never be put with an Imperial team, and the ques will still be based on first come first serve, so if 4 good players que at the same time, they are likely to get grouped together anyway. Meaning, you're still going to have premades even with a Single-Que only bracket. Random does not equal more fair, by any measure whatsoever. It's not in any way shape or form a fix for anything and will only bring more frustration and WZ leaving to "Queue dodge" bad players you don't want be in a queue cycle with or to try and join the same WZ that your friend got into.

I've already pointed out a number of times that with the present diminishing size of the player pool, neither matchmaking nor separate queues are likely to change the situation on anything but the 2 pvp servers. I agree that they would be too easily exploited because of how few people are q'ing at a given time. That doesn't change the fact that separate queues, intelligent matchmaking and/or solo-only toggles are good ideas that would work given a healthy population and are greatly desired by the casual pvp community.

That said, the horse is already out of the barn on most servers. BW needs to give the pvpers (and potential pvpers) who left a reason to come back in numbers before any of the methods for improving balance in matches could be realistically implemented.

It's sad when blizzard makes a statement that helped their game attract more players to the PVP scene, but the only response you get here is "Not blizzardlulz".

I can already assume those that typed that, never ran a business before in their entire lives. Adapting to the ever-growing changes MMO's provide, is a good thing.

Hey though....not blizzardlulz

You can really see the brightness of these premadelopsidedmatchonly supporters.

Premades are killing the joy of the game

#FirstWorldProblems

#FirstWorldProblems

That's juvenile and suggests you have no faith in your own argument.

You're in here like the rest of us debating about an online video game friend. I'm well aware of the issues less fortunate people face in this world, but I don't see why that means we can't be passionate about a hobby--as you obviously must be, or you'd be on a message board discussing genocide in the Congo instead.

If someone in here was threatening to open his wrists or have a protest rally over premades, then yeah... over the top. I haven't seen that, only frustration about not being able to enjoy a favorite game the way people want to.

That's juvenile and suggests you have no faith in your own argument.

 

You're in here like the rest of us debating about an online video game friend. I'm well aware of the issues less fortunate people face in this world, but I don't see why that means we can't be passionate about a hobby--as you obviously must be, or you'd be on a message board discussing genocide in the Congo instead.

 

If someone in here was threatening to open his wrists or have a protest rally over premades, then yeah... over the top. I haven't seen that, only frustration about not being able to enjoy a favorite game the way people want to.

I just get tired of all the dramatic QQ. It's not that bad. Really, it's not. New Ranked 4v4's will stimulate us hardcore pvpers and take us out of your regular warzone queue for a while. So you should be happy that you will be able to play against more casuals, and it will feel like you guys are getting "steamrolled" less.

But honestly, if you want BALANCED and FAIR PvP, then only way to go is Ranked Warzones. It doesn't get more fair and balanced than that. Reg Warzones will never be fair or balanced unless there is a match-making system, NOT a single-que system. That's the bottom line.

how is this not what I said? lol

And

just pointing out that, in this case, they weren't endorsing or condoning abusing ppl in regs or ignoring objectives in regs just to mess around.

But I read his statement as a clear endorsement of using it in regs because, in his words, "they don't matter".

It could be that I'm interpreting your response incorrectly, and if so I apologize.

I just get tired of all the dramatic QQ. It's not that bad. Really, it's not. New Ranked 4v4's will stimulate us hardcore pvpers and take us out of your regular warzone queue for a while. So you should be happy that you will be able to play against more casuals, and it will feel like you guys are getting "steamrolled" less.

 

But honestly, if you want BALANCED and FAIR PvP, then only way to go is Ranked Warzones. It doesn't get more fair and balanced than that. Reg Warzones will never be fair or balanced unless there is a match-making system, NOT a single-que system. That's the bottom line.

The only reason Ranked seems more "fair and balanced" is that every team runs a cookie-cutter comp, with perfect gear, perfect coordination, and perfect tactics. At that point, yes.. the more skilled players win.

Unfortunately, back in the real world where a VAST majority of the population plays, we don't have such luxuries as cookie-cutter comps, perfect gear across the board, perfect coordination, and perfect tactics.

Ranked and Regs are 2 separate realms in that sense, and should be judged accordingly. Noone has asked for Ranked-type matches in regs. All anyone has asked for is to put the RNG back into team composition. I think that's fair.

I just get tired of all the dramatic QQ. It's not that bad. Really, it's not. New Ranked 4v4's will stimulate us hardcore pvpers and take us out of your regular warzone queue for a while. So you should be happy that you will be able to play against more casuals, and it will feel like you guys are getting "steamrolled" less.

 

But honestly, if you want BALANCED and FAIR PvP, then only way to go is Ranked Warzones. It doesn't get more fair and balanced than that. Reg Warzones will never be fair or balanced unless there is a match-making system, NOT a single-que system. That's the bottom line.

I really hope that the 4v4 pvp will remove mostof the premades from the regular WZ. But I dont dare to keep my hopes up. And I dont concider you guys at all "hardcore pvper" as you seem to Picture yourself. IM not unfamiliar to the premade runs myself, even if i want them gone. I just think premade runs are too easy to challange me at all.

I mean, your litterally bombarded with powerheals in a premade Group. All u gotta do is spam diffrent attacks and not care about cover or have to withdraw from actio to regain Power and heal up. There no need for tactical judgement or manuvers at all. Just stand and spam. So, NO, premades are NOT any "hardcore" pvpers. They are more like cowards and cavemen without Brains. And i'll be so happy if you all go into that Cave ov 4v4 pvp and hide for the rest of time

Thank you.

And

 

 

But I read his statement as a clear endorsement of using it in regs because, in his words, "they don't matter".

 

It could be that I'm interpreting your response incorrectly, and if so I apologize.

the "they" who weren't endorsing griefing regs were the "LD50 trolls" in jade's post.

And you are very.... disagreeable. Everyday.

 

It's not whining. It's calling spades..... spades.

its whining.

wallbanging is an exploit whether its done by someone in a premade or someone that queued solo. yet you are complaining that somehow it is a major problem with premades? get real.

grouping is going to be discouraged in our game. said no MMO developer ever.

also, when presented with real solutions to the problem, you claim that we need a "interim" solution. aka, a solo only queue. no, we do not need a solo only queue.

we need skill based matchmaking. we need a RWZ system that is more accessible. RWZ needs matchmakning. and we are getting arenas, which will pull some of the 4-man groups out of regs (particularly those players from RWZ teams that arent able to form a full 8-man group).

and as has been said by me and many, many others, this is a problem directly related to the skill level of the average player. if each person tried to improve their own gameplay a little bit each day, this wouldnt be nearly as much of a problem.

yet i see players every day that somehow are incapable of even earning the 90k damage/healing medal? yeah, its definitely the premades fault that you lost

its whining.

 

wallbanging is an exploit whether its done by someone in a premade or someone that queued solo. yet you are complaining that somehow it is a major problem with premades? get real.

 

 

grouping is going to be discouraged in our game. said no MMO developer ever.

 

 

also, when presented with real solutions to the problem, you claim that we need a "interim" solution. aka, a solo only queue. no, we do not need a solo only queue.

 

we need skill based matchmaking. we need a RWZ system that is more accessible. RWZ needs matchmakning. and we are getting arenas, which will pull some of the 4-man groups out of regs (particularly those players from RWZ teams that arent able to form a full 8-man group).

 

and as has been said by me and many, many others, this is a problem directly related to the skill level of the average player. if each person tried to improve their own gameplay a little bit each day, this wouldnt be nearly as much of a problem.

yet i see players every day that somehow are incapable of even earning the 90k damage/healing medal? yeah, its definitely the premades fault that you lost

You somehow always seem to miss the point, Cash. Always.

The point was to say that Ranked teams know what the issue with competitive premades vs. casual players are, and not only do they NOT care, they make it worse by doing things like that.

Geez... stop harping on one point in an idea and see the big picture, man.

You somehow always seem to miss the point, Cash. Always.

 

The point was to say that Ranked teams know what the issue with competitive premades vs. casual players are, and not only do they NOT care, they make it worse by doing things like that.

 

Geez... stop harping on one point in an idea and see the big picture, man.

why should i care that the people i am playing against suck?

im not going to stop playing with my friends in regs b/c there is a chance that the players on the other team might suck.

and you think that if said players werent wallbanging, that they still wouldnt absolutely demolish the other team?

its not the responsibility of players in a premade to go easy on the other team. im gonna use all my tools to try to win.

and as i pointed out just before, arenas will help with removing some of the RWZ player 4-mans from regs. which is what you folks want, no?

Todays WZ run just ended...beena few good hrs in the morning Before the premade monsters woke up. From now on its infested and totally unplayable.

Thats the state of the game right now

Todays WZ run just ended...beena few good hrs in the morning Before the premade monsters woke up. From now on its infested and totally unplayable.

 

Thats the state of the game right now

last night I was teamed up with marauder with willpower implants, cunning helmet, leveling greens, no augments, and expertiese crystals in pve weapons. he insisted on guarding node solo (ofcourse I didn't let him, as each time our node was attacked, he died like a charm). after we lost, he complained that he always lose warzones, as he's unlucky and always meets premades on other team.

that evil premades ruining lives..

separate solo/team que: I will still meet that muppet...unless I start doing premade warzones.. no thank you.

matchmaking: this muppet will either mean I'll be paired with very strong member to counter him, or other team will be avarage to my greatness (that's a joke, I assume I'm avarage), or we will be in separate 'brackets', or we all be equally bad in both team, either way, matches will be more or less equal ground (which won't stop one team to get rotfl stomped by other from time to time)

separate solo/team que: I will still meet that muppet...unless I start doing premade warzones.. no thank you.

matchmaking: this muppet will either mean I'll be paired with very strong member to counter him, or other team will be avarage to my greatness (that's a joke, I assume I'm avarage), or we will be in separate 'brackets', or we all be equally bad in both team, either way, matches will be more or less equal ground (which won't stop one team to get rotfl stomped by other from time to time)

Next step you need grow some balls and go ranked. Premaders on regulars have no balls.

Next step you need grow some balls and go ranked. Premaders on regulars have no balls.

where did you read I do premades on regular warzones.

solo que for life, that's the price I pay for having 2 jobs, life and being in pve, social friendly guild

Todays WZ run just ended...beena few good hrs in the morning Before the premade monsters woke up. From now on its infested and totally unplayable.

 

Thats the state of the game right now

The question is ... did you manage to get your 90k damage or healing medal?

The post by Blizzard devs on the psychology, unfairness, and business ineffectiveness of allowing premades to queue against solo puggers is anything but irrelevant. It is squarely, firmly on point and it always will be.

 

These are the same customers. They are looking for the same type of experience. They play the same MMOs. Nothing is different except that BW mishandled the brand and the state of pvp to the point that we have a much smaller available pool than WoW does. Human nature does not change.

 

Blizzard, above all, knows how to make money. They would never, EVER have implemented their queue changes if the premades were the majority of their paying customers. If the two segments of the population were roughly equal, they probably still would not have acted. That they went out of their way to not only change the system but even condemn the notion of premade vs pug should tell you everything you need to know: casuals are where the MMO money is, and they have spoken.

 

Nothing is different here except the people holding the reigns. The style of WZ pvp is almost identical to BG pvp. The people partaking are the same type of MMO player. Why would you assume the conclusions would be so radically different in TOR?

 

PvP must be fun for people to continue doing it, in the same way PvE must be fun (even and perhaps especially when it's challenging). If the PvP is not fun due to unbalanced teams, whether perceived or otherwise, the pvpers will leave.

 

Anyone attempting to discredit the Blizzard post is not looking at this scientifically. It is the SAME target market guys, the same metrics, the same feedback.

 

The solution? I agree, it's elusive. The best is cross server (not going to happen) the next best is just infusing the game with a bigger population across all servers. That's only going to happen if BW starts listening to the majority of its customers and giving them what they want, for which they have a very poor track record.

I say it's irrelevant because (besides it is!) SWtor doesn't have Blizzard numbers or system. Blizzard has multiple cross-server tools/systems, larger numbers, puppies, pandas, etc... that Swtor does not.

Furthermore, I don't think Blizzard is wrong in taking action against very specific toxic players. I think they took the wrong action. My point about their arena criticism is simple... they can be wrong. I think they're wrong about this too. It would have been better to take decisive action against individuals of this anti-player mentality (ie, those who use the "So and So just rage quit!" add-on, etc..) rather than a blanket solution. The only thing Blizzard did there was save money on a one-shot mechanic change rather than policing their players. Only time will tell if their new found solution is God's gift to it's player-base, or another "mistake" they'll regret later.

Finally I pose this question; "If Blizzards so great... why are they bleeding subs too? They've lost 4mil subs in the last 2 years, and 1.3mil of that is with the last 5 months."

Forbes article, posted 5/9/13 Don't tell me Forbes isn't a reliable source.

Next step you need grow some balls and go ranked. Premaders on regulars have no balls.

Or you can just stick to PvE, where you can actually kill stuff and feel good about yourself. Once you wipe the tears from your eyes and decide to Man-Up you can come back to PvP.