Progression raiding gets you vehicles, pets, titles, achievements, and set bonuses. Letting people craft the highest tier doesn't change any of that..

 

I know that, but still the driving force behind raiding is getting that gear drop. And of course the sense of accomplishment from completing the raid.

I don't raid for pets or titles or achievements, if I get them, cool.

My point is, if everyone was able to be fully geared BEFORE entering the raid for the first time, they would be less likely to run it more than a couple of times because the content would become trivial and usually not very difficult.. and then the forums would fill up again with complaints that there is no content because they already completed it in record time.

I do agree end game crafting has flaws to it. The Mass Gens sell for 400k-500k so to make a mod or enhancement when you can just run ops or flashpoints to get 69 gear it make take longer to get your BiS.

 

I have player other MMOs where crafters had more that they could craft like combat pets or mounts. Or like in Star Wars galaxies house decor. I have admit decorating a guild hall that we used to hold meetings at was kinda cool. As well we used the guild hall as storage for mats and items that we have away to guildies we used to have backpacks with cool speeders and gear to help level Low level toons as we recruited to our guild. Now I am not saying bring player housing to the game but let us be able to decorate our ships. Maybe as a reward for doing Eternity Vault say 50 times you get a SOA mini statue to display on your ship and maybe after doing KP so many times a KaragaS mini statue and maybe thru the cartel market be able to buy a shelf or bookcase to display these statues for those hardcore players that want that. Though player housing and building player cities would be cool if they tied it into world pvp some how that would make cities interesting. Being able to decorate our ships our way makes feel like we own our ship and that it's really ours. Plus it's a way to show if achievements that could be another interesting loot drops from ops or rewards for completing so many ops etc.

 

I do agree crafting in this game is second class and now maybe because that its treated that way maybe that's why so many people left the game. There is a large group of players that love to craft and in these forms all you get are the craft haters so its safe to say that the crafting type players have left the game maybe this is an opportunity for bioware to win back subs.

...

 

My point is, if everyone was able to be fully geared BEFORE entering the raid for the first time, they would be less likely to run it more than a couple of times because the content would become trivial and usually not very difficult.. and then the forums would fill up again with complaints that there is no content because they already completed it in record time.

I think this is a good analysis as well.

 

When you overgear content it tends to become too easy and thereby boring. Slowing down obtaining best in slot gear would then make the end game last longer.

 

And for those that need to overgear content to be able to run it, 72 gear will be craftable in 2.2.

Fair enough about how the end game gear is dropped but maybe then bio ware should allow more schematic shells to drop for crafters or sell the schemes in the cartel market or something because with the cartel market all the cool armour and outfits you purchase through the cartel which doesn't allow much for crafters to make and sell. I think if bioware should introduced more things like player housing and player created cities as well as being able to decorate your ship they could sell more stuff thru the cartel market or have crafters craft more stuff and make then more viable.

 

Also with player housing which would introduce more things to do in game while waiting for more new content to come out. Te crafters could make the houses etc which is more stuff they could craft making them happier and attracting more players to the game. They could create fresh planets strictly for player housing tie in open world pvp into the game for control of these planets being fought back and forth between the two sides even creating more pvp content which players have been asking for.

 

When this game first came out there were millions if players signed up I remeber waiting to get onto the servers people did cry for player housing and better space and bioware did neither and so many millions left the game this game before it came out was labeled the WOW killer so much hype came around it but the game didn't perform maybe because some cool in game content like this never was in the game MMOs need to evolve to be new and fresh progressive to make it worth while to play player created cities gave more content for players and gave guilds another reason to play and work together I think it's something worth looking into and would create a market for crafting having it all player made.

BiS gear should be craftable or otherwise obtainable (other than buying) without the need to raid. Raids are EGC and should first and foremost be about CONTENT. Making a game is first about quality content. A mmo should have expansive EGC that has great replay value. That is not to say that Raids should not have rewards as far as gear goes, but that raid gear should be unique. Something special that says I completed an extra challenge. My answer is simple. Look at the PVP model.( I will mention that I do not PVP seriously, but looking at the system they use in SWTOR I think this will work. PVPer's feel free to tell me if i am way off base here.) In SWTOR , PVP has its own stats that modify how effective you are. Why not make special Gear that effect a special stat for Raids. These could effectively be carbon copies of BiS Gear but be uncraftable and unobtainable through anything but raids. This would mean those that craft but do not raid can still feel powerful and happy in PvE while raiders would still have something to work towards. This would also mean that even with BiS gear the Raid would still be challenging. In any event, that is my two sense on the issue. Ignore it if you will.

I believe crafting should be both useful for gaming and beneficial for making money. But the reality is you get better gear from operations. You get better money from selling raw materials. Why bother getting top level schematics when the next week you'll get better gear from an operation? If someone puts in the effort to reach the top in a craft, they should be able to craft the best gear in the game. Otherwise there's simply no point.

 

They have Story Mode for players like you, you don't need BiS gear for that. Too bad if you can't craft the highest level of gear. Crafting isn't about giving yourself easy access to the best gear, it's merely a tool to assist you in clearing the content that rewards top level gear.

I agree with what I think was the OP's sentiment - if you want top end gear, why can't you craft it? If you want to spend 100 hours in an ops run and I want to spend 100 hours crafting and GTNing (or PvPing for that matter) then why should what you think is the "right" way to get gear change how I can get it?

 

OTOH, my point is that for themepark (non-sandbox) MMOs this is standard. The ops/raiding crowd would be horrified at so fundamental of a change. Whether you think of the BiS as motivation or reward or acknowledgement, that is the way non-themepark MMOs do it. You can't go to WoW or Rift of ... and get something fundamentally different. Imagine the forums if for the price of a couple of Revan masks and hoverchairs (or worse 3000cc) you could get BiS gear?

 

"Next Year in Jerusalem" ( EQ3? )

Agree with OP - the top tier not being craftable has completely ruined the market, and as such I've stopped wasting time on crafting. I used to process several orders on a daily basis for dread guard gear, but since 2.0 I've had something like 3 orders TOTAL for arkanian grade.

 

Why would anyone spend credits to pay crafters and/or for materials, when you can easily get this stuff for commendations.

 

The combination of top tier lockout, the removal of materials on reverse engineering and the ease of access to commendations has really destroyed crafting imo. And I used to like that part of the game =/ One of those nerfs alone would have been enough to reduce the impact of crafting, but as usual Bioware opts for the sledge hammer instead of fine tuning. Morons.

Edited June 6, 2013 by Asavrede

I don't care about high-end crafting.

I do it as long as I have fun with it (crafting, that is).

Agree with OP - the top tier not being craftable has completely ruined the market, and as such I've stopped wasting time on crafting. I used to process several orders on a daily basis for dread guard gear, but since 2.0 I've had something like 3 orders TOTAL for arkanian grade.

 

Why would anyone spend credits to pay crafters and/or for materials, when you can easily get this stuff for commendations.

 

The combination of top tier lockout, the removal of materials on reverse engineering and the ease of access to commendations has really destroyed crafting imo. And I used to like that part of the game =/ One of those nerfs alone would have been enough to reduce the impact of crafting, but as usual Bioware opts for the sledge hammer instead of fine tuning. Morons.

Because not everything is available for commendations...Augments being front and center. And before you claim they are not worth producing - don't think purple. Blue quality item modifications sell AMAZINGLY well on The Harbinger. I post 15-30 and three hours later they are all sold.

Edited June 6, 2013 by psandak

I don't ever recall an MMO that allowed access to top tier gear through crafting outside of SWG pre-NGE and even then there were "Legendary" items that outdid anything you could craft.

 

Crafted gear most often allowed you a high enough gear level to access to Heroics/ HM Flashpoint level content which in turn allowed you to gear for normal mode raids/Operations where you got the gear for your next bit of stuff.

 

Crafting top tier gear should never be possible. It is incentive to go out and do that content and should only be available when it is no longer the top tier. Without the incentive to access that content it would be ignored by many people making the game designers effort mostly wasted.

I believe crafting should be both useful for gaming and beneficial for making money. But the reality is you get better gear from operations. You get better money from selling raw materials. Why bother getting top level schematics when the next week you'll get better gear from an operation? If someone puts in the effort to reach the top in a craft, they should be able to craft the best gear in the game. Otherwise there's simply no point.

 

Maybe you should think about the whole server during the levelling process instead of just endgame, I mean, there are many players that craft level 11+ stuff, but they either rarely do it, or do it a lot, but overcharge by a large margin.

 

I also suggest that you think long-term profit, instead of short-term.

Because not everything is available for commendations...Augments being front and center. And before you claim they are not worth producing - don't think purple. Blue quality item modifications sell AMAZINGLY well on The Harbinger. I post 15-30 and three hours later they are all sold.

 

How much do you charge and what level are they?

How much do you charge and what level are they?

 

On Harbinger.

 

I am not sure that I buy the 15 to 30 in three hours (5 to 10 an hour) on a regular basis.

 

Mods and Armoring did not sell at all after 2.0, but are starting to sell slowly again. I am finding that the sales ae spotty and you can list five to ten pieces and have them sell in a day at some times and come back as unsold (even though they are the lowest price and not being undercut) at others. I have been selling some deft mods in the 14 to 18 level as well as might armorngs in the same range. The resolve, skill, and reflex stuff are also selling althought more slowly in that range. A few days ago I listed a few overflow mods ((resolve) at level 7 and they sold.

 

I generally list based on competitive pricing, but usually try to stay (level 18 range) between 13.5K and 14.5K. It depends on the number of listings and the pricing of what is there. I usually list lower level stuff at 10K to 12.5K. This is for blue stuff.

 

I have also been able to sell some overflow enhancments in the lower mid ranges.

Edited June 15, 2013 by asbalana

Because, if you're able to be fully geared with the absolute best gear before even setting 1 foot into the instance, what's the point of even doing them?

The gear is the "carrot on the stick" for us raiders,that's what drives end game raiding.

 

What you seem to be saying is that raiding isn't fun on its own. It needs to have an exclusive on the best rewards in the game or no one will do it. Makes you wonder....

Agree with OP - the top tier not being craftable has completely ruined the market, and as such I've stopped wasting time on crafting. I used to process several orders on a daily basis for dread guard gear, but since 2.0 I've had something like 3 orders TOTAL for arkanian grade.

 

Why would anyone spend credits to pay crafters and/or for materials, when you can easily get this stuff for commendations.

 

The combination of top tier lockout, the removal of materials on reverse engineering and the ease of access to commendations has really destroyed crafting imo. And I used to like that part of the game =/ One of those nerfs alone would have been enough to reduce the impact of crafting, but as usual Bioware opts for the sledge hammer instead of fine tuning. Morons.

 

Well, I would, well as long as the price was reasonable and fair to both the crafter and me, but that's the levelling process, which it seems 99% of all players tend to overlook, but the 1% that don't overlook it, tends to take advantage of it by pricing everything over 10x the value of it.

On Harbinger.

 

I am not sure that I buy the 15 to 30 in three hours (5 to 10 an hour) on a regular basis.

 

Mods and Armoring did not sell at all after 2.0, but are starting to sell slowly again. I am finding that the sales ae spotty and you can list five to ten pieces and have them sell in a day at some times and come back as unsold (even though they are the lowest price and not being undercut) at others. I have been selling some deft mods in the 14 to 18 level as well as might armorngs in the same range. The resolve, skill, and reflex stuff are also selling althought more slowly in that range. A few days ago I listed a few overflow mods ((resolve) at level 7 and they sold.

 

I generally list based on competitive pricing, but usually try to stay (level 18 range) between 13.5K and 14.5K. It depends on the number of listings and the pricing of what is there. I usually list lower level stuff at 10K to 12.5K. This is for blue stuff.

 

I have also been able to sell some overflow enhancments in the lower mid ranges.

 

hmmm, I wonder, how much did it cost for you to craft those items you sell? (ie. how much did it cost to gather them?) Cause materials required to make blue quality items are easily acquired and quite cheaply too, if you gather the primary materials (scavenging materials) yourself, it means only the underworld trading materials cost you credits to get and each item costs between 2-4 of the UT metals.

 

Overall, it shouldn't cost 10k to get it, purples, sure, since out of all the underworld trading missions I have done, 90% of them that succeed did not give purple materials, so the purple quality items crafted by players I can expect to be expensive to get, cause they are the best for that level and lasts longer then blue quality does, as well as the fact that the purple quality material required for the items creation is so rare to get, but blue quality items are far cheaper to make, so it must be down to just pure greed that causes the prices to be that high.

Wrong, making the top tier gear available to everyone makes end game raiding useless.

The whole point of end game raiding is to obtain the best gear available, not for everyone and their brother to buy it off the GTN.

Wrong. The point of raiding is to have fun. Best gear should be available to everybody. Different ways to obtain it would be there to make sure all types of players will have fun doing it.

Edited June 16, 2013 by zzoorrzz

While I'm not giving up crafting all together.... I see myself crafting a lot less since I can use planetary commendations to outfit my alts. I stopped crafting orange custom gear at the point I realized that I have a limited amount I can put up for selling which kinda defeats the point of "offering" a wide range and let customer decide which one they like and which one they don't without checking various websites to find the right set of cloths they can ask from any crafter.

 

I do however agree that endgame gear as in highest available gear ingame should not be craftable. Instead they should be bound to legacy until they are being outdated. This allows people who do a lot of endgame content to outfit their alts without having to go to the same gear grind they did previously and pretty much for 0 reason on top of that.

 

What I would like to see for crafter is more models to re-engineer or new models to be found due to crafter quests etc. .

 

Another nice thing would be which schematic you already learned (like a crafting book) so you got something to "collect" and finish... even though most of the things you'll never ever craft because there is just no need for it at all.

My frustration with crafting is the mats and FUBAR missions.I sent out 5 maxed affection companions and 4 were fails.If my sub hadn't been paid already I reallly would of thought seriously about ubsubbing.The reason I am here now.To cool down.I went out to farm Makeb a few nights ago.I got a total of 8 mats for 1 1/2 hours of real time.I did get a bunch of the old mats.How about actually having the new mats on Makeb only.I know you can get 5 rich gifts on one level but how about letting us get the same for mats that you can actually craft with.I crraft for my chrs.I have no alts.The chr I am on at the time is my main.Ops I don't do and no interest in.Others like them more power to them.I do 95% of my crafting for my chrs.That is what crafting is about for me.I can craft 156 and that is more than good enough for me.If I put out the effort and time I don't expect the same mats in Makeb as in the previous planets.I do think the crafting is better than Pong.Not by much.

How much do you charge and what level are they?

 

level cap stuff (grade 28/66 level 53-55 depending on the item) usually sell between 10k and 20k each, but I can still make a profit as low as 6k. blue quality Sliced parts and UT metals are practically given away (if you are patient, look hard enough, and buy them up when they are that cheap). The most expensive material (based on GTM pricing) are the primordial artifact fragments that go for about 1k each. The rest of the materials for armormech, synthweaving, cybertech and artifice (carbonic crystals, scavenged materials (metals and compounds), and the powder and flux crafting materials) run 500-600 each.

 

hmmm, I wonder, how much did it cost for you to craft those items you sell? (ie. how much did it cost to gather them?) Cause materials required to make blue quality items are easily acquired and quite cheaply too, if you gather the primary materials (scavenging materials) yourself, it means only the underworld trading materials cost you credits to get and each item costs between 2-4 of the UT metals.

 

Overall, it shouldn't cost 10k to get it, purples, sure, since out of all the underworld trading missions I have done, 90% of them that succeed did not give purple materials, so the purple quality items crafted by players I can expect to be expensive to get, cause they are the best for that level and lasts longer then blue quality does, as well as the fact that the purple quality material required for the items creation is so rare to get, but blue quality items are far cheaper to make, so it must be down to just pure greed that causes the prices to be that high.

 

First half is 100% WRONG!!! Self gathered materials ARE NOT FREE!!!!!!!!!!!! I cannot emphasize that enough!!!!!!!!!! If you gather materials and craft something and post that something for less than what the materials are worth on the GTM you are losing profit. Time is money.

 

On the second half....I've said it before, to you, and I'll say it again...the GTM is 100% buyer driven. Sellers can post what they want for as much as they want, but if the buyers balk and don't buy then posting items for sale at outrageous prices means nothing. I know because I am buyer as well as a seller. I know that certain materials can be bought at certain levels, but if those materials and posted more expensively than "the right price" I won't buy. I've seen the stuff I typically sell posted as high as 30k and as low as 6k. The sweet spot though is between 10k and 20k (they get bought quickly and I make good profit). Why should I sell myself short by posting at a lower price just because YOU think I'm greedy? The rest of the buyers are apparently perfectly content to pay my prices "sweet spot" prices.

 

This happens in the real world too and it's usually the small items that have the biggest profit margins. The mouse pad on your desk, probably cost $3-$5 to buy yet only cost 25 cents to make. Your phone charging cable you paid $15 for probably cost the company $1 to make. Why do you think sales representatives try to sell you "accessories?" It is because they know that those accessories have the highest profit margin - we're talking thousands of percent.

 

Sorry but your utopian economy does not exist.

Edited June 17, 2013 by psandak

...

 

On the second half....I've said it before, to you, and I'll say it again...the GTM is 100% buyer driven. Sellers can post what they want for as much as they want, but if the buyers balk and don't buy then posting items for sale at outrageous prices means nothing.

 

...

This is perhaps that most important thing to wrap one's head around when thinking about prices.

 

The buyer has as much power to determine the price of an item as the seller. It is the fact of players willing to buy low level gear at high prices that is allowing sellers to sell at high prices.

 

Because this game is so very alt-friendly, you see many low-level characters with seed money from their other level 50s, resulting in a sort of lowbie "inflation"

This happens in the real world too and it's usually the small items that have the biggest profit margins.

Yup. I worked at a concession stand in my youth for a small(ish) movie theater. The manager bought barrels of coke syrup for cheap, and sold the finished drinks (filled to the brim with crushed ice to take up space) for a truly obscene profit.

 

Edit: Oh, and I was told to notify security if I saw anyone bring food or drinks into the theater. I'm sure you can guess why THIS rule went into place.

Edited June 18, 2013 by Khevar

oh my word, it doesn't cost you anything to gather the stuff yourself, just a full stack of scavenging materials can get you like 24 items if they cost like 4 of each, the only materials that will cost you credits is Underworld Trading or any other mission skill.

 

In the end, you are lazy, you can't be asked to spend 1 hour to gather enough materials to make 24 items that are worth roughly 4-5k each and it only costs roughly 1200cr to make each item.

 

But hey, I am not the greedy person exploiting other players.

oh my word, it doesn't cost you anything to gather the stuff yourself, just a full stack of scavenging materials can get you like 24 items if they cost like 4 of each, the only materials that will cost you credits is Underworld Trading or any other mission skill.

 

In the end, you are lazy, you can't be asked to spend 1 hour to gather enough materials to make 24 items that are worth roughly 4-5k each and it only costs roughly 1200cr to make each item.

 

But hey, I am not the greedy person exploiting other players.

 

If by "greedy" you mean: I provide a service to players who are unwilling and/or unable to do it themselves and I charge what they are willing to pay, then fine I'm a greedy son of a B**** and proud of it.

 

Jamie, the problem is that you have a MAJOR disconnect. the question is how much is your time worth to you? Do you go around giving away what you gather to total strangers? Because if you don't then you do place a value on your time spent gathering. That value translates into credits - "TIME IS MONEY!"

Edited June 18, 2013 by psandak

hmmm, I wonder, how much did it cost for you to craft those items you sell? (ie. how much did it cost to gather them?) Cause materials required to make blue quality items are easily acquired and quite cheaply too, if you gather the primary materials (scavenging materials) yourself, it means only the underworld trading materials cost you credits to get and each item costs between 2-4 of the UT metals.

 

Overall, it shouldn't cost 10k to get it, purples, sure, since out of all the underworld trading missions I have done, 90% of them that succeed did not give purple materials, so the purple quality items crafted by players I can expect to be expensive to get, cause they are the best for that level and lasts longer then blue quality does, as well as the fact that the purple quality material required for the items creation is so rare to get, but blue quality items are far cheaper to make, so it must be down to just pure greed that causes the prices to be that high.

 

hmmm

 

I wonder, how much did it cost you to run the Ilum dailies and rack up 60 to 70K. I can do it in 10 to 15 minutes.

 

I wonder, how much did it cost you to run the Black Hole dailies and rack up 40 to 50K. I can do it in 10 minutes.

 

If I gather mats, it takes quite a bit of time. I have to go to the planet in question, go to mat rich (lol as if there were many) areas by taxi, get on my speeder, run around looking for the mats, and fight the mobs that guard or drop them. I spent a lot of time and credits leveling crafting skills and building blue and purple schematics. I wonder, how much time you take clicking on the box in fleet to instantly transport to a daily area.

 

If I run missons, I am paying for them. By the time I gather or run missions for mats, run my crafting companions, list the item on the GTN, and collect the sales revenue, it takes a bit of time. I am also paying the gtn fee. All in all, I may make more, especially considering lower level items, just running dailies and not crafting.

 

I have to spend time to study and understand the in game economy and keep current on gtn pricing and sales trends. What do you study and what time do you spend to generate in game revenue from other methods?

 

It appears that you believe that your non crafting time is more valuable than my crafting tme. It appears that you value your non craftng in game effort to earn credits by means oher than crafting more than my crafting effort.

 

So it must be down to pure greed that causes you to not want to spend your time to pay for mine. It must be down to pure greed that you want your in game efforts to pay more than mine.

 

-------------

 

I may try your approach and list all armorings, mods, and enhancements and other stuff at 100 credits over cost. I hate to be greedy and do have the patience to sell 60,000 mods to get that reven's mask that I have my eye on.

Edited June 18, 2013 by asbalana