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Premades are ruining non-ranked warzones


Monoth

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Let people play the way they want to.

 

Okay, pet peeve number 2.

 

Let people play... no one is -stopping- a PuG, Casual, Non-competitive, etc... from playing how they want to play now. They are free to queue without a group, run into the warzone naked, and throw legacy punches, spam emotes, etc. Everyone is allowed to play in the current system.

 

In a matchmaking system, everyone is still allowed to play -and- the system tries to sort them via "how they like to play." A lot fewer lopsided matches, more equality, etc.

 

In split queue/toggle there are player -not- allowed to play how they want. If there isn't another group (and in the case of 3-mans, a specific combination of other groups) then so sorry, you don't get to play. Meanwhile there may be plenty of PvP'ers playing, but they've got their own specially tailored play place, and **** the rest of you! (Paraphrasing actual other posters here).

 

As for the rest of it, Bioware can't, simple solution, etc... I've already made my points about those.

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Okay, pet peeve number 2.

 

Let people play... no one is -stopping- a PuG, Casual, Non-competitive, etc... from playing how they want to play now. They are free to queue without a group, run into the warzone naked, and throw legacy punches, spam emotes, etc. Everyone is allowed to play in the current system.

 

In a matchmaking system, everyone is still allowed to play -and- the system tries to sort them via "how they like to play." A lot fewer lopsided matches, more equality, etc.

 

In split queue/toggle there are player -not- allowed to play how they want. If there isn't another group (and in the case of 3-mans, a specific combination of other groups) then so sorry, you don't get to play. Meanwhile there may be plenty of PvP'ers playing, but they've got their own specially tailored play place, and **** the rest of you! (Paraphrasing actual other posters here).

 

As for the rest of it, Bioware can't, simple solution, etc... I've already made my points about those.

 

You've made your points on how realistic the matchmaking idea is, but they remain naive.

 

You're gunning for a highly theoretical pie in the sky solution that BW's present devs not only couldn't accomplish, but are not likely to TRY and accomplish any time soon.

 

Let's keep the bar low.

 

Our chances of getting a minor change (an on/off button) are a whole lot better than a sweeping reconstruction of the guts of the queuing system and the addition of visible/invisible player stat tracking on numerous variables that may or may not even BE a good indicator of player skill/experience (not to mention all of those variables would probably start at 0 and require a lot of time to build up any useful data).

 

If BW decides to sink a lot of money and man-hours into a system to help PvP balance, I think everyone is agreed we'd much rather see them put that effort into X-Server development instead.

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just for the record, you cant use legacy punches in warzones anymore. i tried and it wouldnt work. sad panda :(

Awwww, that's awful. We used to run bare-chested+fist skills in Huttball with my guildies if we faced a PuG.

 

Especially hilarious with 2 body type 4 male twi'leks in the group.

Edited by Helig
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This is a matter of skill and preparation, and is not limited by queue type.

 

(On a side note: If this was true, I'd be Goddess of PvP. :D but I actually kind of suck so... yeah.)

 

I have some bad news for you then......

 

You are either unskilled or unprepared

 

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I have some bad news for you then......

 

You are either unskilled or unprepared

 

Nuh uh!

 

I'm not unskilled, it's all those OP marauders, sins, sorcs, mercs and PT's! And all the hacks, you know I tried to stun a sniper once but he was like, immune to all my CC and then there was this PT that jumped to me and you all know jump is a Jugg skill.

 

:cool: I'm hot **** yo.

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The issue with your solo queue (or toggle) is that it fails to help skilled solo queuers and casual groups. Basically, as a solo queuer, I'm still going to have the possibility of having absolutely horrible players on my team and we'll still get absolutely destroyed by better players. Teams are still random and you'll still have team comp issues. In fact, you'll probably have far more team comp issues since the tanks and healers will mostly be queued with groups. Any 1 tank or healer in solo queue could easily ruin games.

 

Casual groups have also not been helped. They will still have to face ranked caliber teams in group queue simply to play with friends. Top tier teams will also have the possibility of getting matched with casual teams that can't compete with their competition. Essentially, a solo queue doesn't help the more skilled players at all and hurts casual groups. The only group even moderately aided by this solution is low-moderate skilled PUGs that won't see as many of the better players who primarily group.

 

Most of those legitimately arguing for matchmaking aren't against solo queue entirely, but understand that the population is not high enough without cross server to support both solo queue and matchmaking at the same time. Matchmaking is just a solution that helps far more people than solo queue as I outlined above.

 

He complains that casual groups are being left out but he's okay with a system that still doesn't help solo pvpers.

 

Clear, unfiltered bias.

 

You want a fix for this? Cross server queue's- Split queue system- matchmaking, in that order. Too bad the first one on the list won't happen.

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You want a fix for this? Cross server queue's- Split queue system- matchmaking, in that order. Too bad the first one on the list won't happen.

 

The underlined are desperately needed but Bioware has admitted to not having the resources to commit to such a system or simply has no interest in doing so. In any case, PvP desperately needs a fix, if the situation remains as is, the overwhelming vast majority that is everyone that does not or cannot be part of a pre-made for whatever reason will slowly begin to avoid PvP or quit altogether, which is good for no one.

 

As otherworlder has described, a simple On/Off switch to prevent yourself from being grouped with or against pre-mades would be a quick and simple fix. The only people that see a problem with this are the people in the Pre-mades themselves as it could possibly increase their queue time to roflstomp more PUGs.

Edited by LeonHawkeye
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Voice chat is the only advantage a Group can have but a PuG can not (reasonably).

 

At this point, you don't need to read after that. Since they refuse to acknowledge a clear issue. That's pretty much the reason why they label anyone who discredits them as a "troll" because it makes them feel better and because they have yet to provide an answer to the obvious problem.

 

How does matchmaking fix group composition?

 

So far the only response I see is Jade clearing admitting that "Well...those solo pugs gotta deal with it, but let's not hurt casual premades.".

 

The bias is very strong with this one.

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This is a matter of skill and preparation, and is not limited by queue type.

 

(On a side note: If this was true, I'd be Goddess of PvP. :D but I actually kind of suck so... yeah.)

 

This is a time/effort based thing. Time/effort is not based on queue type.

 

Time matters. Beiing 2 months ahead of most of everyone else brings in fame (and with it, you can hire the best PvPers) and early better gear that helps keeping that advantage.

 

 

In theory PuG's who have played together or simply know common quirks could have the same kind of relationship. I did tell a story about me and another Operative kicking *** and taking names. Never met before, but just moved in such perfect unison you would have sworn we had. Either way, it's not something really exclusive to pre-grouping, but it is something learned from grouped play.

 

It's the same difference you see between making a Facebook friend and a real friend: you know both, but the latter usually gives a way deeper knowledge / attachment / teamworkship.

 

I too have made friends in PUGs, some are even in my friends list now. But it's different than "living under the same roof" for months, it's all another level.

 

Purple is generally my most important point:

You said casual/solo and that's the problem. A casual is not equal to a solo player. I "minimalize" the group advantage for this reason. The problem isn't in groups vs. PuGs, it's in non-casual and/or competitive vs casual and/or non-competitive.

 

Casuals cannot be really competitive. Limited and erratic playtime = slower progression, less friends (if you tend like me to have to log in at different hours every day) and in the end your fate is dictated by how terrible are the others in the team. Even forming a group it's still much harder as casual player to rival a true RWZ guild premade, in SWTOR I estimate a "friends team" is about twice / thrice as stronger than loner randoms but twice (minimum) weaker than a real competitive setup, which comes from RWZ guilds.

Edited by Vaerah
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At this point, you don't need to read after that. Since they refuse to acknowledge a clear issue. That's pretty much the reason why they label anyone who discredits them as a "troll" because it makes them feel better and because they have yet to provide an answer to the obvious problem.

 

How does matchmaking fix group composition?

 

So far the only response I see is Jade clearing admitting that "Well...those solo pugs gotta deal with it, but let's not hurt casual premades.".

 

The bias is very strong with this one.

 

Herp derp solo queue.

 

We don't respond to you constructively because you make up points to support your argument. Point out in my post where I said anything remotely like this and I'll care what you have to say again.

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Herp derp solo queue.

 

We don't respond to you constructively because you make up points to support your argument. Point out in my post where I said anything remotely like this and I'll care what you have to say again.

 

It's sad that I have to help you understand what you type. :rolleyes:

 

Casual groups have also not been helped. They will still have to face ranked caliber teams in group queue simply to play with friends

 

and this little nugget.

 

a solo queue doesn't help the more skilled players at all and hurts casual groups.

 

Still wondering where the solo pugs fit in. Oh wait...they don't. I thought those big bad premades didn't exist? Oh I guess they do now, because casual premades might face them, but if solo pugs face them, well...that's fine.

 

Gonna answer my question now? Probably not, since it pretty much destroys your argument and the other trolls argument as well. Even otherworder is starting to see how you guys debate, you avoid basic questions and concerns since you only care about a specific group, and it shows. The only thing you offer is, what exactly?-

 

WoWs sub decline is due to split queue's-Really? Reek of desperation.

Insults-well you guys been doing it since the start of all this, only now you finally decided to attempt to hold a meaningful discussion.

Voice chat is the only advantage premades have-this one had me rofl IRL.

Seems that's pretty much it. Since you have yet to provide an answer to a very basic question

 

 

You have been completely and utterly debunked. ;)

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It's sad that I have to help you understand what you type. :rolleyes:

 

 

 

and this little nugget.

 

 

 

Still wondering where the solo pugs fit in. Oh wait...they don't. I thought those big bad premades didn't exist? Oh I guess they do now, because casual premades might face them, but if solo pugs face them, well...that's fine.

 

Gonna answer my question now? Probably not, since it pretty much destroys your argument and the other trolls argument as well. Even otherworder is starting to see how you guys debate, you avoid basic questions and concerns since you only care about a specific group, and it shows. The only thing you offer is, what exactly?-

 

WoWs sub decline is due to split queue's-Really? Reek of desperation.

Insults-well you guys been doing it since the start of all this, only now you finally decided to attempt to hold a meaningful discussion.

Voice chat is the only advantage premades have-this one had me rofl IRL.

Seems that's pretty much it. Since you have yet to provide an answer to a very basic question

 

 

You have been completely and utterly debunked. ;)

 

You didn't read what I wrote, you just found pieces you liked.

 

Quote: Originally Posted by Jadescythe

The issue with your solo queue (or toggle) is that it fails to help skilled solo queuers and casual groups. Basically, as a solo queuer, I'm still going to have the possibility of having absolutely horrible players on my team and we'll still get absolutely destroyed by better players. Teams are still random and you'll still have team comp issues. In fact, you'll probably have far more team comp issues since the tanks and healers will mostly be queued with groups. Any 1 tank or healer in solo queue could easily ruin games.

 

Casual groups have also not been helped. They will still have to face ranked caliber teams in group queue simply to play with friends. Top tier teams will also have the possibility of getting matched with casual teams that can't compete with their competition. Essentially, a solo queue doesn't help the more skilled players at all and hurts casual groups. The only group even moderately aided by this solution is low-moderate skilled PUGs that won't see as many of the better players who primarily group.

 

Most of those legitimately arguing for matchmaking aren't against solo queue entirely, but understand that the population is not high enough without cross server to support both solo queue and matchmaking at the same time. Matchmaking is just a solution that helps far more people than solo queue as I outlined above.

 

Like I said, your solution is a moderate fix for casual solo queuers. It does not help better solo queuers and it does not help groups of any form. Casual solo queuers are the same ones who make up casual groups from time to time, I think they'd like to have even games however they choose to queue.

 

Like I said, show me where I have complete disregard for solo queuers and I'll care what you have to say again. I care what the entire population of the game needs, not just a subset.

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you cant fix group composition unless you add a group-finder-esque thing to the PvP queue. and imo, that is a terrible idea.

 

what happens when DPS players start queuing as healer or tank so they can get queue pops faster? its inevitable that it would happen.

 

the only real way to fix comp is to force all premade 8 mans. but thats a terrible idea as well.

 

if you want to do regs, youre always going to have to deal with the potential random factor of your team's group comp sucking.

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you cant fix group composition unless you add a group-finder-esque thing to the PvP queue. and imo, that is a terrible idea.

 

what happens when DPS players start queuing as healer or tank so they can get queue pops faster? its inevitable that it would happen.

 

the only real way to fix comp is to force all premade 8 mans. but thats a terrible idea as well.

 

if you want to do regs, youre always going to have to deal with the potential random factor of your team's group comp sucking.

 

Well this is what I don't get. I understand the reasoning behind wanting to split the queues but I still believe that matchmaking is the way to go. I have seen several times that matchmaking would not work on low pop servers so I am not sure why split queues would work on low pop servers.

 

I also see that group comps is an advantage (Ill give you that having a healer certainly increases your chances at winning assuming the other team does not have one) but splitting the queues or having a matchmaking system would not solve this as well.

 

Cash is right, the only way to actually 'balance' this is to have a group finder like you have for operations which I agree with him, is a terrible idea.

 

Regs are random. Whether you split the queues or implement a matchmaking system its still going to be random.

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Like I said, your solution is a moderate fix for casual solo queuers. It does not help better solo queuers and it does not help groups of any form. Casual solo queuers are the same ones who make up casual groups from time to time, I think they'd like to have even games however they choose to queue.

 

Like I said, show me where I have complete disregard for solo queuers and I'll care what you have to say again. I care what the entire population of the game needs, not just a subset.

 

Still waiting for the answer to my question.

 

If you can't answer it in the next reply, then I will take it that you concede on this issue and admit that you only favor one group over another.

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you cant fix group composition unless you add a group-finder-esque thing to the PvP queue. and imo, that is a terrible idea.

 

what happens when DPS players start queuing as healer or tank so they can get queue pops faster? its inevitable that it would happen.

 

the only real way to fix comp is to force all premade 8 mans. but thats a terrible idea as well.

 

if you want to do regs, youre always going to have to deal with the potential random factor of your team's group comp sucking.

 

Which brings the point of 3 premades 4 solo pugs, all equal skill. The 3 premades got great group composition but the pugs are all...merc DPS or tank spec vanguards. So how does matchmaking help at all in that case? The answer: It doesn't.

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Well this is what I don't get. I understand the reasoning behind wanting to split the queues but I still believe that matchmaking is the way to go. I have seen several times that matchmaking would not work on low pop servers so I am not sure why split queues would work on low pop servers.

 

I also see that group comps is an advantage (Ill give you that having a healer certainly increases your chances at winning assuming the other team does not have one) but splitting the queues or having a matchmaking system would not solve this as well.

 

Cash is right, the only way to actually 'balance' this is to have a group finder like you have for operations which I agree with him, is a terrible idea.

 

Regs are random. Whether you split the queues or implement a matchmaking system its still going to be random.

 

If it's all going to be random, then in the end matchmaking doesn't fix the problem.

 

You should all be pushing for cross-server queue's, like big time. Even if it's against Bioware's investors best interest.

 

Cross-server queue's- Split queue- Matchmaking- In that order, things could really improve.

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Which brings the point of 3 premades 4 solo pugs, all equal skill. The 3 premades got great group composition but the pugs are all...merc DPS or tank spec vanguards. So how does matchmaking help at all in that case? The answer: It doesn't.

 

Lol what's wrong with Merc DPS or Tank Specced Vanguards?

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If it's all going to be random, then in the end matchmaking doesn't fix the problem.

 

You should all be pushing for cross-server queue's, like big time. Even if it's against Bioware's investors best interest.

 

Cross-server queue's- Split queue- Matchmaking- In that order, things could really improve.

 

We have been pushing for cross-server queuing for sometime now. :rolleyes:

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If it's all going to be random, then in the end matchmaking doesn't fix the problem.

 

You should all be pushing for cross-server queue's, like big time. Even if it's against Bioware's investors best interest.

 

Cross-server queue's- Split queue- Matchmaking- In that order, things could really improve.

 

Well it is random unless you have two 4 man groups synching up their queues but in that case which I rarely see splitting the queues wont help group composition at all.

 

And at this point (speaking of being on a PvP server) I don't think cross servers are necessary for regular warzones, you could make the argument for ranked but it appears on my server the ranked scene is doing just fine.

 

Though it appears that for now bioware has no drive to do cross servers and even if they did it would be a long, long ways off.

 

Lol what's wrong with Merc DPS or Tank Specced Vanguards?

 

Nothing but not everyone knows this.

Edited by cycao
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Premades minority ruin game for solo players majority. How? Easy.

 

Lets 25% of player base are hardcore premades - for example, its 4 people. Call them "P-team".

Rest 75% of player base are solo queuers. Lets divide them on 3 teams of 4 people in each - solo 4 ppl team "A", 4 ppl team team "B" and 4 ppl team "C".

 

Each wz is 8 vs 8. Premade have great advantage, so after 3 games:

P + A > B +C

P + B > A + C

P + C > A + B

Premade team P always have 100% win.

Solo queuers teams A, B, C all have 2 lose and 1 win, it mean just 33% win chance.

 

So, just 25% playerbase of premades hurt other 75% player base of solo queuers.

 

What want solo queuers? They want solo only queue. It mean 50% win/lose ratio for them, but it mean 0% ratio of win/lose for premades, cuz premade queue empty.

 

So, solo players want move their win/lose ratio 33% -> 50%.

But premades dont want move their win/lose ratio 100% -> 0%, or into 100% -> 50% (when they force play solo queue too) and they are trolling on forum in this thread, defending current system which make 100% win rate for them.

 

/thread 500+ pages

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Still waiting for the answer to my question.

 

If you can't answer it in the next reply, then I will take it that you concede on this issue and admit that you only favor one group over another.

 

Are you serious?

 

Random is random, nothing will fix group comp short of destroying queue times with a group finder like mechanic which Cash has mentioned in the last 2 pages and we've said 1,000 other times in this thread. Your solo queue certainly won't fix it since there is NO IDEAL COMP. I'd rather have a good DPS than a bad healer, even if we don't have a healer then.

 

Your point is that premades can have "ideal" comps. What is ideal in one scenario isn't ideal in another. If you run 2 tanks, 2 healers, and 4 dps because of 2 premades and run into a team full of sins, your healers are getting sapped while your tanks get doubled up on and the DPS all get destroyed in 1v1s. There is always a comp to beat whatever you have and it will always be random if you queue solo.

 

I'm still waiting for you to prove me wrong btw. Tell me how not liking an idea that doesn't help any skilled players regardless of grouping or casual groups is only caring about one group? You have all but said that all you care about is solo queuers and your solution doesn't even help me as a solo queuer. Maybe you should get better logic.

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Premades minority ruin game for solo players majority. How? Easy.

 

Lets 25% of player base are hardcore premades - for example, its 4 people. Call them "P-team".

Rest 75% of player base are solo queuers. Lets divide them on 3 teams of 4 people in each - solo 4 ppl team "A", 4 ppl team team "B" and 4 ppl team "C".

 

Each wz is 8 vs 8. Premade have great advantage, so after 3 games:

P + A > B +C

P + B > A + C

P + C > A + B

Premade team P always have 100% win.

Solo queuers teams A, B, C all have 2 lose and 1 win, it mean just 33% win chance.

 

So, just 25% playerbase of premades hurt other 75% player base of solo queuers.

 

What want solo queuers? They want solo only queue. It mean 50% win/lose ratio for them, but it mean 0% ratio of win/lose for premades, cuz premade queue empty.

 

So, solo players want move their win/lose ratio 33% -> 50%.

But premades dont want move their win/lose ratio 100% -> 0%, or into 100% -> 50% (when they force play solo queue too) and they are trolling on forum in this thread, defending current system which make 100% win rate for them.

 

/thread 500+ pages

 

1) Premades are just PUGs that are grouped at the time

 

2) If 25% of the player base is hardcore premades, then the other 75% must make up all the terrible groups I see

 

3) Guaranteed I get >60% if not >70% win rate in a solo queue with no matchmaking. It will be like lowbies all over again where I can carry entire matches.

 

4) Group queue wouldn't be dead, it would just be more like a PUG ranked queue. Casual groups won't want to queue up for fear of seeing amazing teams, but it will have plenty of accessibility since it only requires 4 to queue. So 75% of your player base based on your example can't play with their friends/guildies.

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