I actually did that during that post. The 11.7% represents the DPS increase from a raw dummy parse without the armor debuff. I also listed the non-armor debuff contribution (i.e. averaged out execute improvements) which amounted to a 5.567% increase in total DPS.

 

If you're looking for the raw increase to DPS during the execute phase rather than the values averaged out across the entire fight, just divide by .3: the 5.567% increase for Balance gets pumped up to 18.5567%, which means that DPS jumps by almost 20% during execute phases. For Infiltration, it's a bit simpler since it's just a raw 6% end multiplier from Judgment and a 41% increase to CS damage from Spinning Strike (SS does ~82% more damage and replaces half of your CSs). If you can throw me a decent Infil dummy parse to go off of, I can slap those into a comparable increase for you.

That insteresting so it "only" needs another 5-7% to get to decent levels.

That insteresting so it "only" needs another 5-7% to get to decent levels.

 

Honestly, I'd like to see something like a 50/50 split between improving the execute range and improving outright DPS (~2.5% improvements on each side), though it might be interesting to see Shadows as the undisputed execute kings as part of the class "schtick". Any fight with an intense execute phase would have a Shadow DPS as the most valuable DPS, even if the mean DPS is on the lowish side.

here's the best one i have, but i know theres a few up people who are up in the 2600s, i could find you one of those too if you'd rather.

 

The raw DPS doesn't matter so much as the percentages being correct for all levels of "top DPS".

 

If CS represents ~20% of total DPS, the 41% increase in DPS from Spinning Strike conversions would equate to an 8.2% increase in DPS from that. Stack it up with the 6% multiplier and you get a 14.7% increase in DPS during execute phases.

Any fight with an intense execute phase would have a Shadow DPS as the most valuable DPS, even if the mean DPS is on the lowish side.

any fight with an intense execute phase, or any fight with frequent execute phases maybe? but thats a different discussion.

If CS represents ~20% of total DPS, the 41% increase in DPS from Spinning Strike conversions would equate to an 8.2% increase in DPS from that. Stack it up with the 6% multiplier and you get a 14.7% increase in DPS during execute phases.

i guess the 6% execute bonus including spinning strike contributes a lot more than i expected. reduced force cost will help, and i was thinking something along the lines of CS seems to be a lot more detrimental to be spamming in infiltration than in balance, maybe it's exactly the reduced force cost, it adds a reprieve from the costly CS spam. however i'm not sure if all this is quantifiable, you'd be the person to tell me ^.^ perhaps these are all factors that you've accounted for, this is where my lack of math skills becomes a problem, lol.

BW has comprehensively shown that they can't handle the math and simulation to maintain such sub-30% talents, and you want them to invest more into it?

 

I'd rather they peeled them back, nerfed SS a bit and increased force damage. Their PvP solution has failed IMO.

Ok so my burst move idea I mentioned in the AC question thread was a redesign on Mind Crush/Crushing Darkness for all ACs. More front loaded damage, shorter DoT run (i.e. significantly less than CD and ICD refresh).

 

This restores Mind Crush to what it was prior for the melee classes, which was a move that didn't require active maintenance to yield the vast majority of its DPS. That there is such a wonky DoT maintenance (i.e. not sharing the same duration) makes it extremely difficult to maintain at an optimal level.

 

The best move is to simply make maintenance irrelevant, you just hit it when it refreshes. The trick is how to balance this burst so that it doesn't make a TK Sage too powerful in PvP by having awarding them another nuke button (and perhaps Infil players using it in combination with Low Slash/Spinning Kick as a 1v1 opener). Perhaps a high-tier Balance talent to boost it?

 

So to recap on my ever reforming plan to modify Shadow talents & abilities:

 

Ability Changes:

1. Reduce damage on Shadow Strike

2. Look to boost Damage on all other Shadow-specific attacks to recompensate for SS nerf (consider a boost to Project also)

3. Mind Crush redesign with a goal of making it more of a burst move for Balance/Madness in both ACs without breaking PvP for the other damage trees.

4. New AoE damage ability with a CD to replace Whirling Blow that could behave differently for each technique (weak Internal DoT for Balance, flat Internal damage for Infil, flat Kinetic damage for KC); 25-30 force cost and balance damage to remove it from Single target rotation; consider making it short range, no upper target limit to promote viability/play style in Operations.

5. Give Balance Shadows another move or burst move (if the MC/CD change doesn't go through) so there is an enjoyable form of variety in their rotation instead of super-careful-DoT-refresh time.

6. If they're not interested in 5, consider at least an additional single-target burst damage mechanic for Balance Shadows in PvP that has an ICD and triggers on being struck with direct damage, perhaps a free Spinning Strike on a target of any health or a free off-GCD move.

 

Talent Changes:

1. Remove Shadow's Mark, move Upheaval to Tier 2 in its place, create new +Force Damage talent to replace Upheaval's position

2. Remove talent for extra ticks on Mind Crush; consider a flat damage increase talent for Mind Crush in a similar position to balance for all ACs.

3. If possible, peel back sub-30% talents to allow for less constraints on design requirements for Operations, look at replacing with crit talents to discourage hybrids in PvP.

4. Improve upon Mental Defence, either adding another form of DR to the talent, or making it a 1-point talent.

5. Remove Lambaste or redesign for new AoE to encourage players to spec all the way up the Balance tree in PvP.

 

Side note: Does Lambaste actually allow for Rippling Force to be placed on 5 targets, making Whirling Blow cost an initial 40 force, before returning up to an additional 10 force 1 second later? I remember having this thought on the PTS but never doing enough testing to confirm, and haven't bothered with it since (bad AoE is bad). If so, I guess they had the same idea in mind as what I just mentioned, but just failed in their assumptions and ultimately their design.

Edited August 8, 2013 by DaftVaduhhh