Thread: P2W is bad?
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Zunayson
11.12.2012 , 09:48 PM | #1
WHY?

Yep, a Gear grind QQ thread disguised as a P2W QQ thread!

Give me a reason why pay to win is bad.

PVP MEASURES SKILL! THOSE WITH BETTUR MONEY WINS!
Those with bettur gear wins....

PVP ISN'T SUPPOSED TO MEASURE THE SIZE OF YOUR WALLET
It's also not supposed to measure the number of empty spaces on your calender... which is what allows you to get the gear and therefore win....
REBUTTAL: GEAR DOESN'T NECESSARILY CAUSE AN AUTOMATIC WIN; SKILL IS INVOLVED! THE GEAR GRIND IS JUSTIFIED!
Then so is P2W, since "gear doesn't necessarily cause an automatic win", then any advantage obtained unskillfully via money is analogous to any advantage obtained unskillfully via time sink.... Thus, since I most likely must spell this out for you, if an advantage via time sink is justified, an advantage via micro-transaction must be as well.

GEAR SLAUGHTER DOESN'T ENCOURAGE NEW PLAYERS TO PLAY, THIS GAME IS DYING!
Not only is this off-topic, but the grind right now has a huge gap and also "doesn't encourage new players to play". In other words, your point is invalid!

EDIT: Wave 2 of arguments after more than 100 replies! :O

P2W TAKES OUT ALL THE CHALLENGE TO GET REWARD! G2W DOESN'T!
Okay, you're saying that P2W doesn't have challenge, and that grind 2 win does. So let me think: what does grind to win have that pay to win doesn't? .... grinding. So if you're saying that P2W doesn't have challenge but G2W does, you're telling me that grinding is the challenge. And if this game is about who has the most time on their hands... then... gah thank God halo 4 just came out so I have something to run back to.
BOTTOM LINE: Your point only works if you're admitting to PvP (NOTE: Player vs Player) being about measuring the time the player has grinded, and not his or her skill. The former goes against anyone's doctrine on the matter and the latter invalidates your point

P2W completely screws up gear progression, takes away all the satisfaction from getting new pieces, would make server firsts completely meaningless and there would be no reason whatsoever to raid or do warzones.
Well, this is sort of iffy, since some believe pvp should, and others say it should not have gear progression. Since you obviously believe it should, let me spell it out for you: What is Pvp? PvP, from the definition I'm aware of (Please do correct me if I'm wrong) is Player vs Player. This should be to compete. You say that lack of gear progression means that warzones and raids would be completely meaningless.

RIght now a full recruit will get stomped by a full wh. This is NOT progression. I'm not gonna lie i don't care at all if I have recruit. I care if I get stomped by full war hero. You are not forced to play lv 10 content as a lv 1.
BOTTOM LINE:
FACT: PvP here has no gear progression - proven by definition
YOUR ARGUMENT: P2W is bad because it ****s with progression
MY ARGUMENT: G2W ****s with progression
CONCLUSION USING YOUR OWN ARGUMENT: G2W is bad because it ****s with progression



For a game to be a clean contest and have the integrity to keep people engaged, it must not be possible to simply buy your way to victory, because then it's just a contest to see who can spend the most rather than who's best at the game.
God-awful analogy! It's one thing to learn to play, it's a totally different game gearing up. Unless, you're telling me that gearing up = skilling up. And since chess measures skill, and we're drawing parallels, logic suggests that you're telling me that since chess measures skill that: PvP measures gear. And by the defintion I was told player vs player measures SKILL, not gear. Your point has been invalidated!

Two wrongs does not make a right.
I'm not saying that either one is good, in fact I'm declaiming both of them. I'm saying that if you support (see bolded below). Also I just now edited in my personal view on the subject in the very last line. P.S. just read the whole thread, sorry it took so long, lots of homework (ZOMG A KID) and one hundred posts to read sucks D:

Would the Olympic swimming team let a millionare join them who doesn't even know how to swim and hasn't had the time and effort to learn the tricks of the trade?
Nope. But swimming measures "the tricks of the trade". It's illogical for me to whine that the other team is more skilled. It's most certainly logical, however, for me to whine about them being more geared. PvP does, after all, measure SKILL, not GEAR. I CANNOT stress this enough! GEAR should be a constant, OR SKILL should be a constant, but you do not have TWO input variables!

BORED SO JUST WANTED TO SAY THAT

Quote:
Is that the game, where knights can force leap? Bishops use force speed? Kings stealth and rooks take cover and turn into miniature turrets?
https://d37wxxhohlp07s.cloudfront.ne...jpg?1347586633
Back to invalidation ._.

P2W is a horrible aspect that screws up all sense of gear progression and allows an injustified advantage over other players, damaging any "fun" aspect or a sense of accomplishment.
G2W is a horrible aspect that screws up all sense of skill and allows an unjustified* advantage over other players, damaging any "fun" aspect or sense of accomplishment. You see, my statement makes sense. A non-skill thingy screws with skill and makes the game unfun. We all should know that pvp measures skill by now (Like 3 rants on the damned subject!). What you say is that a non-gear thingy screws with gear and makes the game unfun. by this logic, then, pvp is about gear, and not skill. Proof by contradiction, definition of PvP is skill.

Because it creates inequality between those who have money and those who don't.
I know that, but why are inequalities bad? There's inequality right now. INB4 "They can grind gear". GUESS WHAT. YOU CAN GRIND MONEY. Since you think P2W is bad you must also think G2W is bad and therefore, I hope you stayed home this election because the U.S. will surely get ****ed up with illogical people voting.

Tell me why a person who doesn't have time to play the game would want to play the most competitive aspect of PvP with those who put hundreds if not THOUSANDS of hours of dedicated, hard work and practice into the game?
Because my knowledge of my class and that fact that I'm probably better than 50% of the people that play SWTOR dictates my victory. I fail to see how a statistical advantage merits epeen, unless, of course, PvP is all about gear n stuff. Gear and dedication. Which it most certainly is NOT! I
REBUTTAL: BUT IT TAKES TIME TO GET SKILL!
Yeah, not really. Very little skill in this game, hate to break to ya bud, and it does not take 4 months or whatever which is what it takes from lv 1 to full aug'd WH to master your class...

There is a degree of equality when it comes to the "grind" as eventually, everyone will get on equal par.
So what you're saying is that time accumulates itself up so that by the end of the year, you'd have played the same number of hours that hardcores can get in two months. First, you can "grind" up your money. Secondly, your financial savings will add up over a year to what others may get in two months. and by then everyone will get on equal par.

Time doesn't equal money
This goes against so many false proof equations of math that put in time = money.

Sense: This thread makes none.
Sense: Your post makes none.
Sense: My thread invented it.
I did it twice! I grinded moar! I WIN!

poeple that want p2w usualy are just terrible at the game and NEED an advantage..
Or I'd like to be rewarded for my skill and would actually like to survive that 2v1 onslaught instead of marginally losing the battle and then consequently the match. Just a thought, though.

People seem to think if they have a "good" reason for not playing a game, they "deserve" everything the game has to offer. Just doesn't work that way.
Feel free to correct my paraphrasing of your post, since I did not entirely understand it, but I think what you're trying to say here is that Mr. I have a Life thinks he deserves something from the game? Well, does Mr. I have no Life deserve something from the game? Cause, he does have more, you know, the gear...
REBUTTAL: YEAH! HE GRINDED FOR IT!
Yep, so he did. But is grind the point of PvP? Or is it competition? Grinding =/= entitlement for a game's reward, UNLESS the game's objective is to grind, which is preposterous, as this is (for the fifth? time) PLAYER vs PLAYER

if they can buy an easier gear grind what would be the incentive to sub.
Well, this post only has valid meaning if the reason one plays is to grind. which is, to see above, preposterous. So let me get this straight: You grind to get gear, and after you have BiS, you just quit? It's not even fun? You just put in all this time and then bam quit when you get BiS? It's not even fun? I'm not the irrational one 'round here...

layers would be forced to buy such an item to compete at the highest level and could not acquire the item through normal PvP grinding.
Uhh oh you caught me with my pants down. I didn't realize this, but I seriously doubt biofail would do this. You deserve half my cartel coins! :O

Find the argument you stick with, and then see how you're irrationally thinking if you support both P2W and the gear grind!

If you cannot find your reasons, then post them so I may invalidate them!

For the record, I am against both the gear grind and P2W.
Quote: Originally Posted by Uber_the_Goober View Post
Bioware couldn't balance a sheet of plywood if it were laying [sic] on the ground.
Quote: Originally Posted by Aragost View Post
Make sure you take 3/3 in the "knowing how to play" box