I am very impressed. No really. Nevermind Bioware, Sins are awesome! LOL.

LOL look its the top parsing sin in the game, come to tell everyone how easy it is!!! Look dude, you telling people its easy is like Tony Hawk telling people about skating vert ramp. Because you have a raid group that even lets you run a sin does not mean its easy. Groups dont want the lowest DPS class, they choose alternatives. Madness is fail. One or two exceptions does not change that. I imagine a player like MMerry would lead the dps boards no matter what class he or she played. The average player cannot compete in madness. Period.

They require a team of people willing to bring you in the first place.

Madness is a joke. People might tell you otherwise, but only 1 or 2 players, with positions in top tier raiding guilds can even obtain the gear you need to put up even average DPS numbers. Several of the abilities pre-2.0 were removed, because of a personal grudge against madness sins, because the reasons stated just did not make any sense. Avoid the pain, and just use a sniper or marauder. The "Class Rep" wont help you either. The last round resulted in a buff to Thrash (ROFL) and no fix. Some of us tried to save madness. We were told by our own class rep to l2p, healtofull, lol. For those of you that remember madness pre-2.0, you know how fun that assassins used to be. Now it has become a joke to DPS as a sin, unless you are 1v1 pvp.

You guys, everything is fine. If you don't think so, you are just bad. I mean, look at all the NiM ops that have assassin DPS! So many! I mean, just the other day I was on the fleet and had to stealth out because so many raid groups were practically STALKING me to come DPS NiM S&V! Just look at those numbers on Torparse! Eat your heart out Marauders! We had one guy almost match your crappiest parse from the absolute worst among you! So quit complaining guys, the class is so awesome! Just learn to play, god you suck!

The way I am getting responses from the forums here is: If you cant, you suck. Not because of the way the A.C. was BUTCHERED. No, it is because you suck. Everyone should be able to bring assassins or shadows as a DPS!!!! IRL, they don't, and wont, but that is because YOU and I just suck!

Ok. So your point is I suck. I will even agree for the sake of argument. Not to highjack this thread further than I already have, but I disagree that madness dps is ok. At all. I have no trouble with any competitive online games, console or PC. I have aged quite a bit, but grew up playing video games. On my (alt) Jugg I can put on a few DPS pieces and parse higher. On my Operative I can parse higher. (again, ALT) On my merc I can parse higher. On my marauder I dont even have to try to parse higher. (This one is not as surprising, as it is a true DPS) On my main, on which I have logged over a year on, I suck. The class is just fine. I have already stated that Pre 2.0 I could compete with a mara and merc for top dps in NiM EC. But I guess in 6 months I just forgot to play, because some wizard was able to squeak out a number that still is under performing compared to any other AC. Cool. One last thing. Since we all agree that I suck now, and the class is just fine, and that is behind us- lets see your DPS parse, in madness, with no set bonus. Just so we are all in understanding that you are in a position to even make such a claim, and with your expertise you should have no trouble at all topping my 2260. Again, I am agreeing with you that I suck. Let's see your numbers now.

To fix madness easily: 1. Give us a talent (make it top tier, since we wouldnt want any "low hanging fruit") that helps with force regen so we dont have to spam saber strike a billion times . 2. Move conspirators cloak into the madness tree, as assasin tanks dont need the dps. It just doesnt need DPS, (we already do better than Juggs or PT's anyways).... OR 3. Create a new talent, that just like conspirators cloak, gives a proc that allows assassinate at any health level. 4. Create DPS option for Phase walk like many here have suggested that would either boost crit or power or apply a AOE dot. Either 2 or 3 would put some burst back into the spec, give you another option, and 1 would allow the use of shock or thrash more and less saber strikes. 4 gives us a reason to use our 51 ability outside of PVP or datacron farming. Done, fixed.

So, in other words, not only are we the lowest DPS (even our absolute best) , you need a 2 piece set bonus for enough resources for your rotation. Funny, I don't have resource trouble on other toons. I am guessing at least some of those are also related to the fact that I am on the Harbinger (runs on two hamsters instead of processors) and some of my GCD just dont fire. I am pressing keys, but the animation or attack just dont fire. During that parse I posted I know that happened at least once. The rest are because I am just out of force. So lets recap- To do decent, below average DPS on a shadow or sin you need: - A T1 Internet connection or above - Set bonus - 6 fingers on each hand - 5 Minutes of no GCD bugs on SWTOR (ROFL) - LUCK

Geared to 100% 72 with no set bonus. 1 Verpine implant and the other is stalker. 5) Viktorvaughn (2260 DPS) http://www.torparse.com/a/378262/time/1376160816/1376161116/0/Damage+Dealt Spec: 8/2/36 Madness Assassin I have indeed read every guide ten times, shuffled stats, etc. My current stat balance is 24.6% crit, 71.3% surge. I have stacked power augs, switched them out for power. Tried putting accuracy above 100% (melee) Server transfer? ;-) That would require me giving Bioware money. Wont happen until this issue is addressed . I am officially boycotting them and will continue to do so for the rest of my life for what they did to madness. They fix it, I might re-consider, but it looks like by the time they figure it out EOS comes out, and I am a big Elder Scrolls fan. My feeling right now is the class balance devs = Jar jar Binks.

And there it is. Why would I choose to raid HM with my main, when I can just clear NIM with an alt? I have decently geared Marauder, Jugg, Merc, and an operative. This is my point. I am good enough a player to be pushing NiM numbers, but it takes an act of god and apparently 6 fingers on each hand to be able to do it. That is wrong, and broken IMO. I do appreciate the offer KBN, and if I was on your server I would take you up on it.

Dummy. But again, that is one fight, and one player. All you need to do is take a look at torparse top DPS on any boss fight to see that wild-berry is the exception, not the mean. Shadows and Assasins are sprinkled in the leader boards, but no where near as many are showing up when you average out all the fights. Again, I am not the best player. But when I can't match DPS with my main that I have played since a couple months after launch than with any of my alts who I spend hardly any time on, then I give up. I cant pay for that product. Sorry, but this is all about $$ at this point to me. Madness is broken, force starved, and boring now. Deception is boring to me and always has been (I love the 10k crits with maul but that isnt enough IMO). Tank is broken, squishy, and looks like Master Computer in the first Tron. I did manage to beat the operations chief NIM with my Jugg last week . Gratz to all the Juggs for the laughable ease of tanking. That class is a joke to tank with. Anyways I wont bounce back and forth, because I have seen the math. I personally cant make it work, top out at 2260, and am tired of wasting my time beating dummies in the hope that some raid team will be retarded enough to bring a madness sin along.

Great work KBN- Not that I have any faith that anything will change, and have already un-subscribed. My only 2 cents is your madness point. Before 2.0, I could out DPS both the Merc and the Marauder in my raid group with my assassin spec madness. Now, mind you, I am not claiming to be the best. I am not even claiming to be really good. But parsing 1500 DPS back before the great nerf of 2.0 was something I did regularly in EC HM/NIM. Now, in 2.0 my best parse with complete 72 gear (no set bonus because people flat out refuse to bring me as a DPS) my absolute best parse is 2260 (If you look at the DPS leaderboard for Harbinger I am dead last for assassins). So, my point is that with my skill level before I was able to post solid numbers. Same skill level now, better gear, stims, adrenals, etc. and try after try I cant top that 2260. So I would argue that Wild-Berry and one other guy that I saw are indeed exceptional players, and should NOT be compared to anyone. I used to raid with Stomach who parsed 2000 pretty regularly with his powertech before 2.0 nerfed him and he switched up to Sorc (forgot his sorc name) so I am aware that there are certain players who will always be above everyone else. BTW, I can parse 2400 on my marauder with 69 gear and just mashing the keyboard..... Sigh.

Sorry to step into your flame world here but BULL *****! WAKA is yet another PVP assassin. So is Xinka. KBN knows the math, knows the tanking issues, knows the madness issues, and the MAJORITY of shadows have voted for him. The majority of players in this game PVE. Having two PVP oriented reps would be stupid, and would not represent the majority of players. I, for one, feel like KBN and Xinka are a good balance. Gratz and well deserved KBN. I hope you can get them to fix this class so I can re-sub.

Hey KBN, a guildie pointed my to this site: http://www.pgclan.net/?p=159#more-159 which has almost opposite numbers in respect to Shadow/Assassin Defense/Absord stats. Can you give me your two cents on it? I started stacking defense to see if it would really make a difference, but I ran out of mods/enhancements so I wanted to get some second/third opinions before I continue.