Es gibt doch für dieses Problem eine recht simple Lösung: Beruft einfach mal einen "RBG Gipfel" ein, bei dem sich jeweils ein Vertreter jeder RBG Gilde des Servers im Teamspeak treffen und einen vorher festgelegten Katalog an Regeln/Fragen (z.B. 1. Darf man Schleicher in der Huttball Endzone anhüpfen? 2. Ab wievielen dd PTs wirds "lame"? 3. ...) besprechen und anschließend darüber abstimmen. Heraus käme dann ein relativ übersichtliches Regelwerk à la "Ethische Grundregeln zum RBG auf T3-M4". Falls sich dann hinterher trotzdem eine Gilde über die vereinbarten Regeln hinwegsetzt, verliert sie halt jeglichen Respekt der PvP Gemeinde des Servers, das sollte wenn ich das hier so lese doch Abschreckung genug sein. Denn bisher stellen sich zu viele Fragen die man nicht objektiv beantworten kann: Wenn man 3 PTs als lame empfindet, wieso sind dann nicht schon 2 PTs lame? Und wieso ist es nicht genauso verwerflich, wenn man ohne Sabo DD und Merc DD listet (denn damit zwingt man genau genommen die Konkurrenz dazu, ebenfalls ohne diese Klassen zu listen)? Der Punkt ist, man könnte hier halt ewig diskutieren bzw. flamen, ohne auch nur einen Zentimeter weiter zu kommen, denn es gibt für solche Themen nunmal keine klar definierten ethischen Grenzen - doch das ließe sich doch durchaus ändern, oder nicht?

Why are people still denying the facts? There is a reason for why DPS Operatives are not wanted in serious PvE and/or PvP groups: Other classes can do a better job. It's not something that I want to rage about, but it's still a fact that you can't deny.

Habe durch Zufall diesen Thread gefunden und dachte mir "Hey klasse, mein Server hat ja eine PvP Community die sich austauscht.". Nachdem ich dann hier ein paar Seiten überflogen habe, hat sich die anfängliche Freude dann allerdings schnell in Ernüchterung verwandelt... Bei diesem ganzen Schwanzvergleich der hier stattfindet möchte ich mal auf eines hinweisen, um vielleicht den einen oder anderen wieder auf den Boden der Tatsachen zurückzuholen: Ihr diskutiert hier über PvP auf einem PvE Server in einem relativ unbeliebten MMO. Es gibt garantiert kein Spiel, in dem man mit weniger Aufwand/Talent zu den besten Spielern zählen kann, als dieses. Wenn ihr den Anspruch habt, euch auf euer "Können" (das zu 99% aus gefarmter Ausrüstung und der Wahl einer starken Klasse und der Tatsache, dass ihr bereit seid, mehr Zeit in dieses Spiel zu investieren als 99% der restlichen Spieler) etwas einbilden zu wollen, dann hättet ihr evtl. ein Spiel auswählen sollen, in dem man auch entsprechend ernstzunehmende Konkurrenz vorfindet, nicht SWTOR auf einem PvE Server. Allerdings habe ich sowieso fast das Gefühl, dass einige der Leute die sich hier was auf ihre "rated BG Erfahrung" einbilden (und jeden, der nicht regelmäßig rated spielt als unwürdig betrachten), ganz bewusst dieses Spiel ausgewählt haben, um ihr Ego möglichst leicht zu befriedigen. Entsprechend oft postet man dann auch hier im Forum und huldigt sich selbst und der eigenen Gilde (irgendwer muss es ja schließlich tun!!). Richtig ekelig finde ich es dann allerdings, wenn man schon in der "besten PvP Gilde auf T3-M4" ist und einem auffällt, dass selbst das ständige Gewinnen das eigene Ego nicht ausreichend befriedigen kann --- und man dann zum Beispiel anfängt anderen Gilden vorzuschreiben, welche Kriterien sie zu erfüllen haben, damit sie sich als "PvP Gilde" bezeichnen dürfen, oder welche Klassen sie zu spielen haben (bzw. nicht spielen dürfen), wie sie zu listen haben etc. Nur mal so eine ernstgemeinte Frage: Macht euch dieses Spiel überhaupt Spaß? Und mit "Spaß" meine ich nicht, das befriedigende Gefühl zu gewinnen, sondern den Spaß am Spiel selbst, der von Erfolg und Misserfolg unabhängig ist.

Oh I can play this game lets see.... When I queue with my guild I have roughly a win ratio of 98.785% give or take. And that is even though I have to carry 4 pugs AND the 3 players from my guild. Btw I run the 0/0/0 spec and am wearing full Rakata. I am just that good at this game.

Good teams will either avoid fighting next to your Kolto Cloud (just pull their next target out of it) and they will burst targets down so quickly, that HoT effects won't really matter. AoE heal is only good against AoE and DoT damage. Single target burst damage counters it. Good teams will do single target burst and pick their opponents apart one by one. Hybrid specs are very useful when running with a good premade. There are plenty of spots where it is for the most part useless to do any healing and doing dps is far superior. Having the option of switching between dps and healing is a big bonus. Take Voidstar for example. Healers are incredibly important when being on the defending side. But when you are on the attacking team you should hardly do any healing at all because you need all the dps that you can get in order to kill your opponents quickly enough - and your team gets instant respawns anyways. As a hybrid specced Operative when I defend on Voidstar I do like 90% healing and 10% dps. When I am on the attacking team I will do probably 80% dps and 20% healing. Another example would be capturing an objective in Novare/Civil War. Having the ability to burst down targets QUICKLY so you can take the objective before backup arrives is game deciding. Also attacking/defending in Huttball. Attackers don't need to dps, but they need heals, guards, taunts and CC. Defenders need CC and dps, nothing else. Bottom line: In a very good team there won't be any people that are exclusively healers and there won't be people that are exclusively dps (except for snipers/marauders ofc). People should switch between dps, guard, healing and whatever their class has to offer depending on the situation and regardless of spec. The hybrid spec provides this the best as it offers 95% of the overall healing potential and adds a lot of burst dps.

^ Don't listen to that guy. Hybrids rule in PvP. The AoE heal that you would get from putting 31 points into healing is only useful against bad opponents and will get completely worthless when playing against any decent team. I would take both points out of Scrappy and put 1 more point into Sneaky (mobility is KEY), two points into Stopping Power and the last point either into Homegrown Pharmacology or Psych Meds (HP probably more useful when solo Q'ing, PM probably better when in a premade group). Do NOT take Round Two like the poster above me suggested. With the hybrid spec you should have more than enough Upper Hands at all times to use Sucker Punch anyways. On occasion you will even be able to use it 4 times in a row which is something that even a fully specced Scrapper Scoundrel can only dream of. If you skilled into Round Two you would often times generate multiple UHs through Sucher Punch and Slow Release Medpac while being at the UH cap anyways. So Round Two really is a waste for this spec. On a side note: I would probably drop Anatomy Lessons and pick Smuggled Technology instead. When played right (make excessive use of Emergency Medpack), you should not run into any energy issues with this spec.

All these teams of stunlocking Operatives made so many people unsub that most servers are dead by now.

Well I can only say that I play both classes and you apparently do not. Yet you claim to know more about Operatives than I do... The only reason why Operatives might have bigger dmg numbers on the warzone scoreboard is because of their AoE and their DoT (btw AoE damage is the ONLY thing that an Operative does better than an Assassin). The Assassin's burst is WAY better than an Operative's burst. Claiming otherwise without even knowing the Operative class well is silly. If you are doing less burst on your Assassin than an Operative, you are doing it very wrong. Also whining about force problems is really ridiculous if you are playing an Assassin. Operatives get energy starved WAY easier and to them it's WAY harder to come back from that.

I think you probably missed the point. I have never read any complaints on these forums about Operative healing being bad ever since 1.2 has been released. Operative healing is simply amazing and we probably all agree on that. So if you say the class is fine and then say that you play a healer, it doesn't really mean much. Also I'd like to add that as a dps Operative, your strength is actually 1v1. The class is pretty bad in group fights but it is one of the best solo classes in the game. Probably the only thing that we are still best at is taking a node in Civil War solo. And we are able to defend it solo for quite a while.

This sort of comment is only partly true. Sadly it is being overused as an attempt to smother any reasonable discussion about game balance. You should read the comment that rotatofur posted two posts above yours.

^ this

The thing is that in order to really see the weaknesses of the class, you would have to play one at lvl 50. As far as I can tell the class is doing fine in the 10-49 bracket for the most part.

It's not specific to Operatives but it is much more noticeable for them. My Assassin was doing great after she turned lvl 50 (probably even better than my equipped Concealment Operative). And my Powertech who just turned 50 a week ago is doing fine, too.

I am wearing full BM gear and 5 Warhero pieces. And I can tell you that Concealment is tough, but it's possible to succeed. However when I see fresh dps Operatives and dps Scoundrels in warzones they are really no threat at all. Unless they get the jump on me from stealth when I am below 30% HP they have literally no chance of coming close to killing me because they just do so little damage. They are like mosquitos: sort of annoying but no real threat. And they die very quickly. Playing warzones with a fresh lvl 50 Operative must be very tough and frustrating and I wouldn't recommend it to anyone (unless of course you play a healer). So if you really love the class and want to play it if I were you I would respec to healing the second I hit lvl 50. Obiously buy a full set of recruit gear and slowly farm warzone commendations until you have a full set of Battlemaster gear. Then you can probably respec back to Concealment but it is still going to be very challenging.

You should play an Operative before inventing theories about their burst potential. I can tell you that I play both (Assassin and Operative) and their single target burst damage is not even in the same league. The Assassin is far better. Their burst is bigger, on demand and they also have a finisher, while the Operative's burst damage is frontloaded. Possibly bigger dmg numbers on the warzone scoreboard usually come due to the Operative's AoE (Orbital Strike, Grenade) and DoT damage. The Operative does better AoE damage while the Assassin has better burst, better survivability, better utility and of course better sustained damage.