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What an Ace is - and what an Ace is NOT

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Galactic Starfighter
What an Ace is - and what an Ace is NOT

-Streven-'s Avatar


-Streven-
04.22.2014 , 06:45 AM | #61
Quote: Originally Posted by Zoom_VI View Post
This thread reeks of "the definition of a ace is whatever will qualify me as an ace while disqualifying my peers"
Every time this discussion comes up this is exactly what the discussion devolves into. Its like a bad dream that won't go away and apparently everyone just wants to keep talking about it.
Ben-sindu Harbinger

nyghtrunner's Avatar


nyghtrunner
04.22.2014 , 09:32 AM | #62
My definition of an Ace is anyone who can shoot me down twice in a match when I know they're there.

In all seriousness, though, I totally disagree with this idea that an ace must be good with multiple ships. Here's my reasoning. A few of the GS pilots on JC can really, REALLY carry a team. Levvix is just one example, but a few others (Jaheesh, Kutsenia... I know I'm missing at least 4-5 other names...) are perfectly capable of doing it. I'm going with Levvix in this one, though, because I know for a fact the GS is the ONLY ship he flies. He can hop into a brand new, naked GS and perform well enough to win games on his own. Either by sheer numbers, or drawing enough heat that the rest of the team has a relatively cake match. And it's stupid to disqualify him by virtue of "he can only fly the one ship!"

Here's my major issue with this logic. Playstyle across most of the ships is drastically different. Strikes and Scouts are essentially blood relatives, and if you get good/comfortable in one of them, you can translate a LOT of that knowledge and skill to the other one in a relatively seamless manner. So I guess for scout/strike pilots, theoretically, they've got a huge leg up over their bomber and gunship counterparts in the "Ace Race" because get good at 1, and you can get to be pretty good at the other with minimal commitment. So there's your 2 ship requirement, although in a lot of very real ways, they're very similar ships.

But a bomber and a gunship are completely different animals. They're not similar to each other, and they're not similar to anything else in the game. They require a very different skill set, either way. Now I don't disagree that it's somewhat impressive when someone can fly a T1 Strike as well as they fly a GS/Bomber, but I don't think that that alone makes them an ace pilot.

And here's the catch. I guess I already would meet the multiple ship requirement because I fly the dogfighting brother ships (strike/scout) almost exclusively, but if you decided that they're too similar to qualify as being separate ships, I'm suddenly not. My skills haven't gone down overnight or anything like that, but some arbitrary requirement set by you (under the guise of the "community") is no longer met. A requirement that has little to do with anything.

And my loss of status is likely to stay that way, because...

I do not like flying in either a Gunship or a Bomber. I find them both incredibly boring. And as such, I'm not going to hop into the cockpit of either very often. They don't even qualify as the ships I can take out against a team of n00bs because Gunships and Bombers already have a pretty serious stigma attached to them by that crowd. They're already considered the bogeymen of the ship types, so regardless of my terribad flying in either, if the point is to "not rub it in their faces", those ships fail for me not because of my skill, but because of the perception of those ships among the kiddos who have the T1 Strike and T1 Scout as their only options. So while I'm actually trading way down, it's not likely to be perceived that way if we're up 30-5 in a TDM and I swap to a GS and start ion railing enemies to get assists.

I take issue when people say that the GS (I can't really comment on the bomber, because I've quite literally flown 2 missions in them) takes no skill. I do believe they've been overpowered in the past (don't think so much anymore, although they can still be quite strong), but having been in the cockpit in at least 30-40 matches with 1, and also seeing how people react when you get the drop on them with a scout/strike... I can tell you there's a HUGE difference between the masses and the people like Levvix or Jaheesh who will make you work HARD for a kill on them. And if you make any mistakes, you're going to lose, even if you get the drop on them.

You can tell me that Levvix isn't an Ace because of some arbitrary definition you've concocted of an "Ace" pilot, but anyone who's flown either with him or against him would most likely tell you it's stupid to disqualify him from the discussion because he only flies in a GS. I mean, if it helps you sleep at night to tell yourself he's not an Ace, then by all means. But that won't change his kill counts, his damage amounts, and his utter domination of some matches. If you explode 4-5-6 times having no idea where the shot(s) came from, only that "X was destroyed by Levvix" emote popped up... You can dismiss his performance all you want, but it won't change his domination of the match or his turning of you and your allies into space dust. Someone like that's an ace in my book. Regardless of whether or not they've met some arbitrary binary metric dictated by you. One that only passingly even has relevance to performance.

Anyway, that's just my 2¢. I play GSF for the open flight aspect of it. I enjoy winning, and have a competitive streak, but if we're already winning big, I'd rather take a scout and go run the canyons in Kuat, or the asteroid fields/scaffoldings in Shipyards than go pad my numbers on the hapless other side trying to get 30 kills or 3-cap to win 1000-5. I've been there. I've done that. It ends the match more quickly, but I get no satisfaction out of rubbing the other team's nose in it. And I'm sure as hell not going to hop into the cockpit of a GS or Bomber so that I can match that binary criteria, because I don't enjoy flying those ships. There's no zoom-zoom.

Anyway, feel free to totally dismiss this argument like you have the others that say it's wrong to have the whole "must be good in multiple ships" criteria as part of the definition (because things.). Levvix will still kill you just as dead. I gather that someone like SammyG would as well.
$DO || ! $DO; try
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Sidenti's Avatar


Sidenti
04.22.2014 , 12:47 PM | #63
Quote: Originally Posted by nyghtrunner View Post
My definition of an Ace is anyone who can shoot me down twice in a match when I know they're there.

In all seriousness, though, I totally disagree with this idea that an ace must be good with multiple ships. Here's my reasoning. A few of the GS pilots on JC can really, REALLY carry a team. Levvix is just one example, but a few others (Jaheesh, Kutsenia... I know I'm missing at least 4-5 other names...) are perfectly capable of doing it. I'm going with Levvix in this one, though, because I know for a fact the GS is the ONLY ship he flies. He can hop into a brand new, naked GS and perform well enough to win games on his own. Either by sheer numbers, or drawing enough heat that the rest of the team has a relatively cake match. And it's stupid to disqualify him by virtue of "he can only fly the one ship!"

Here's my major issue with this logic. Playstyle across most of the ships is drastically different. Strikes and Scouts are essentially blood relatives, and if you get good/comfortable in one of them, you can translate a LOT of that knowledge and skill to the other one in a relatively seamless manner. So I guess for scout/strike pilots, theoretically, they've got a huge leg up over their bomber and gunship counterparts in the "Ace Race" because get good at 1, and you can get to be pretty good at the other with minimal commitment. So there's your 2 ship requirement, although in a lot of very real ways, they're very similar ships.

But a bomber and a gunship are completely different animals. They're not similar to each other, and they're not similar to anything else in the game. They require a very different skill set, either way. Now I don't disagree that it's somewhat impressive when someone can fly a T1 Strike as well as they fly a GS/Bomber, but I don't think that that alone makes them an ace pilot.

And here's the catch. I guess I already would meet the multiple ship requirement because I fly the dogfighting brother ships (strike/scout) almost exclusively, but if you decided that they're too similar to qualify as being separate ships, I'm suddenly not. My skills haven't gone down overnight or anything like that, but some arbitrary requirement set by you (under the guise of the "community") is no longer met. A requirement that has little to do with anything.

And my loss of status is likely to stay that way, because...

I do not like flying in either a Gunship or a Bomber. I find them both incredibly boring. And as such, I'm not going to hop into the cockpit of either very often. They don't even qualify as the ships I can take out against a team of n00bs because Gunships and Bombers already have a pretty serious stigma attached to them by that crowd. They're already considered the bogeymen of the ship types, so regardless of my terribad flying in either, if the point is to "not rub it in their faces", those ships fail for me not because of my skill, but because of the perception of those ships among the kiddos who have the T1 Strike and T1 Scout as their only options. So while I'm actually trading way down, it's not likely to be perceived that way if we're up 30-5 in a TDM and I swap to a GS and start ion railing enemies to get assists.

I take issue when people say that the GS (I can't really comment on the bomber, because I've quite literally flown 2 missions in them) takes no skill. I do believe they've been overpowered in the past (don't think so much anymore, although they can still be quite strong), but having been in the cockpit in at least 30-40 matches with 1, and also seeing how people react when you get the drop on them with a scout/strike... I can tell you there's a HUGE difference between the masses and the people like Levvix or Jaheesh who will make you work HARD for a kill on them. And if you make any mistakes, you're going to lose, even if you get the drop on them.

You can tell me that Levvix isn't an Ace because of some arbitrary definition you've concocted of an "Ace" pilot, but anyone who's flown either with him or against him would most likely tell you it's stupid to disqualify him from the discussion because he only flies in a GS. I mean, if it helps you sleep at night to tell yourself he's not an Ace, then by all means. But that won't change his kill counts, his damage amounts, and his utter domination of some matches. If you explode 4-5-6 times having no idea where the shot(s) came from, only that "X was destroyed by Levvix" emote popped up... You can dismiss his performance all you want, but it won't change his domination of the match or his turning of you and your allies into space dust. Someone like that's an ace in my book. Regardless of whether or not they've met some arbitrary binary metric dictated by you. One that only passingly even has relevance to performance.

Anyway, that's just my 2¢. I play GSF for the open flight aspect of it. I enjoy winning, and have a competitive streak, but if we're already winning big, I'd rather take a scout and go run the canyons in Kuat, or the asteroid fields/scaffoldings in Shipyards than go pad my numbers on the hapless other side trying to get 30 kills or 3-cap to win 1000-5. I've been there. I've done that. It ends the match more quickly, but I get no satisfaction out of rubbing the other team's nose in it. And I'm sure as hell not going to hop into the cockpit of a GS or Bomber so that I can match that binary criteria, because I don't enjoy flying those ships. There's no zoom-zoom.

Anyway, feel free to totally dismiss this argument like you have the others that say it's wrong to have the whole "must be good in multiple ships" criteria as part of the definition (because things.). Levvix will still kill you just as dead. I gather that someone like SammyG would as well.
You're an Ace, then. Congrats! -bp

nyghtrunner's Avatar


nyghtrunner
04.22.2014 , 03:57 PM | #64
Quote: Originally Posted by Sidenti View Post
You're an Ace, then. Congrats! -bp
I already knew that, but thanks for noticing (wry smile). I was talking about those like Levvix who are disqualified under the "multiple ships" criteria...
$DO || ! $DO; try
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-Streven-'s Avatar


-Streven-
04.22.2014 , 09:57 PM | #65
So...I just went 12/11/2 and 83k damage in a stock starguard[/URL] in a 12v12 round of TDM on Harbinger during primetime. 3 solo kills and longest kill streak was 8. I guess that makes me an ace according to the 5-0 standard. Though to me it just meant I'm an experienced pilot flying with a bunch of two ship newbies. No offence to the newbies.

And anyone who doesn't think match making is working should roll a new toon on a busy server like Harbinger. Almost every match I've flown in on my new toon has been against primarily two ship pilots. I'd say matchmaking is working on Harbinger. When I fly my toon with all my mastered ships in a group of similarly outfitted pilots we usually get paired with even or better pilots on the opposite side.
Ben-sindu Harbinger

Kalphitis's Avatar


Kalphitis
04.23.2014 , 12:55 AM | #66
Quote: Originally Posted by -Streven- View Post
anyone who doesn't think match making is working should roll a new toon on a busy server like Harbinger. Almost every match I've flown in on my new toon has been against primarily two ship pilots. I'd say matchmaking is working on Harbinger. When I fly my toon with all my mastered ships in a group of similarly outfitted pilots we usually get paired with even or better pilots on the opposite side.
Define matchmaking 'working'. All you can say for sure is that you've had lucky experiences lately.

Now, let me tell you how I know that matchmaking is 'not working'.

There are several occasions where I've been matched up in same-faction games (Imp vs Imp, Pub vs Pub). In these situations, even when nobody on either team is in a group, there have been several situations where one team is totally stacked, and one team is not.

It makes sense to have uneven matches in Imp vs Pub matches, the game just selects whoever is available most of the time. In same-faction matches, there is no excuse to have lopsided teams (if nobody is in a group). Based on my experiences, it is incredibly clear that there is no algorithm that matches up teams fairly based on some criteria such as time played, total requisition earned, total ships, anything (all of these are tracked for each player, btw).

MystbladeWA's Avatar


MystbladeWA
04.23.2014 , 01:47 AM | #67
Quote: Originally Posted by -Streven- View Post
Every time this discussion comes up this is exactly what the discussion devolves into. Its like a bad dream that won't go away and apparently everyone just wants to keep talking about it.
This begs the question why you were necroing month/s old threads on the topic earlier in the week then...
Harbringer Server Predator Legacy
GSF Pilots: Wardancer Apèx Warsmíth M'shén

NikSunrider's Avatar


NikSunrider
04.23.2014 , 03:53 AM | #68
§A prelude: let me, at first, iterate that my opinion presented hereafter effects GSF, and not piloting of aeroplanes, or, for that matter, any other game, as the former requires entirely different physics, and the latter I am not familiar with. Also, this post is lengthy (626 words), so be warned!

Secondly, I wish to state that it is virtually impossible to judge a pilot’s “skill level” given how one’s effectiveness in GSF is more defined by the mastery of one’s ship, rather than any real ability to utilize it, as can be seen in the following two examples:

• a stock NovaDrive, no matter how skilled it’s pilot, cannot do anything to a gunship, because of the relative effective range differences, shield/hull strength, and power-per-shot.
• a dronecarrier bomber, especially one flying with raildrones or missiledrones, requires very little skill, and yet deals very significant damage to the opposition due to the computer-operated nature of the railgun and missile sentry drones. In fact, you can set up your bomber killbox, and AFK the rest of the game.

§The fundamental difference: As I see it, there is a fundamental difference between a good pilot, and an ace. While a good pilot is a person who knows how to utilize his ship most effectively, and how to exploit many of the game’s wacky physics *cough* Damage Overcharge *cough*, an ace is not necessarily a person with stellar stats, but with great merit as a person.
The difference, as I see it, is like between a good General, and a good person.

§A good pilot is:

• Someone who can solo another pilot in equally geared ships.
• Someone who can perform competently in:

○ a dogfight
○ defence of an objective
○ capture of an objective
○ support of the larger team

• someone who does his part in achieving a victory, not just chasing kills in a Domination match, or sitting at the team’s spawn point in a TDM, but actively contributes.

§An ace is a person who:

• does not have more than 1 premium ship, having earned his ships by flying
• has not spent a single Cartel Coin in furtherance of his GSF effectiveness
• does not farm kills in Domination Matches – if someone has more than 10, then he is not doing what he is supposed to.
• does not farm Damage Overcharge – or any other powerup – in TDM
• has an overall K/D (kill/death) ratio less than 1, meaning that he is willing to put himself in harm’s way rather than maintaining a ‘perfect score’
• on this note, is willing to forego a high kill count to provide support for his team, for instance, softening up targets with a protorp and leaving them to be finished by his teammates rather than focussing on killing the target when there are others capable of doing so.
• does not spawncamp.
• does not kill-steal. Period.
• does not fly an aimbot-equipped bomber in a TDM
• is capable of winning a match through strategy
• is willing to assist other players with questions they might have outside of a match.
• and the usual: does not brag, gloat, demean, and otherwise act as a self-important bigot with illusions of grandeur and entitlement.

Most importantly though, I believe an ace is a person who you would:
• not mind sharing a drink/lunch with.
• would like to meet in real life.
• would prefer to fly with over pilots with higher stats.
• would listen to, in terms of orders, without question.


And finally, a person who, when asked: “Are you an ace?” would answer: “My ego tells me to say ‘yes’, but, honestly, I don’t know, so why don’t you tell me?”

Those, I believe, are the traits of an ace, and I look forward to hearing your opinions, either in-game (see alts list below) or here, in this forum.

And, keep flying!
Blunt logic and common sense are my specialities. Handy weapons, those.
PVP • GSF • FPs • OPs • 55s • you name it! • my ref link

Hawkside Guilds: «Home Front»«Dread Acendancy»

Sidenti's Avatar


Sidenti
04.23.2014 , 05:47 AM | #69
Quote: Originally Posted by nyghtrunner View Post
I already knew that, but thanks for noticing (wry smile). I was talking about those like Levvix who are disqualified under the "multiple ships" criteria...
One-ship ponies are one-ship ponies. If one pilots just one ship type exceptionally well and is markedly poorer in the other types, then it's hard to say the PILOT is the Ace in that scenario.

Sidenti's Avatar


Sidenti
04.23.2014 , 05:49 AM | #70
Quote: Originally Posted by NikSunrider View Post
§A prelude: let me, at first, iterate that my opinion presented hereafter effects GSF, and not piloting of aeroplanes, or, for that matter, any other game, as the former requires entirely different physics, and the latter I am not familiar with. Also, this post is lengthy (626 words), so be warned!

Secondly, I wish to state that it is virtually impossible to judge a pilot’s “skill level” given how one’s effectiveness in GSF is more defined by the mastery of one’s ship, rather than any real ability to utilize it, as can be seen in the following two examples:

• a stock NovaDrive, no matter how skilled it’s pilot, cannot do anything to a gunship, because of the relative effective range differences, shield/hull strength, and power-per-shot.
• a dronecarrier bomber, especially one flying with raildrones or missiledrones, requires very little skill, and yet deals very significant damage to the opposition due to the computer-operated nature of the railgun and missile sentry drones. In fact, you can set up your bomber killbox, and AFK the rest of the game.

§The fundamental difference: As I see it, there is a fundamental difference between a good pilot, and an ace. While a good pilot is a person who knows how to utilize his ship most effectively, and how to exploit many of the game’s wacky physics *cough* Damage Overcharge *cough*, an ace is not necessarily a person with stellar stats, but with great merit as a person.
The difference, as I see it, is like between a good General, and a good person.

§A good pilot is:

• Someone who can solo another pilot in equally geared ships.
• Someone who can perform competently in:

○ a dogfight
○ defence of an objective
○ capture of an objective
○ support of the larger team

• someone who does his part in achieving a victory, not just chasing kills in a Domination match, or sitting at the team’s spawn point in a TDM, but actively contributes.

§An ace is a person who:

• does not have more than 1 premium ship, having earned his ships by flying
• has not spent a single Cartel Coin in furtherance of his GSF effectiveness
• does not farm kills in Domination Matches – if someone has more than 10, then he is not doing what he is supposed to.
• does not farm Damage Overcharge – or any other powerup – in TDM
• has an overall K/D (kill/death) ratio less than 1, meaning that he is willing to put himself in harm’s way rather than maintaining a ‘perfect score’
• on this note, is willing to forego a high kill count to provide support for his team, for instance, softening up targets with a protorp and leaving them to be finished by his teammates rather than focussing on killing the target when there are others capable of doing so.
• does not spawncamp.
• does not kill-steal. Period.
• does not fly an aimbot-equipped bomber in a TDM
• is capable of winning a match through strategy
• is willing to assist other players with questions they might have outside of a match.
• and the usual: does not brag, gloat, demean, and otherwise act as a self-important bigot with illusions of grandeur and entitlement.

Most importantly though, I believe an ace is a person who you would:
• not mind sharing a drink/lunch with.
• would like to meet in real life.
• would prefer to fly with over pilots with higher stats.
• would listen to, in terms of orders, without question.


And finally, a person who, when asked: “Are you an ace?” would answer: “My ego tells me to say ‘yes’, but, honestly, I don’t know, so why don’t you tell me?”

Those, I believe, are the traits of an ace, and I look forward to hearing your opinions, either in-game (see alts list below) or here, in this forum.

And, keep flying!
Howsabout I just hire you to write my next rant? What's your rates?