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Multi-Night Discussion / Pondering About Armor Ignore

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Galactic Starfighter
Multi-Night Discussion / Pondering About Armor Ignore

Verain's Avatar


Verain
04.20.2014 , 07:55 PM | #21
Quote: Originally Posted by Armonddd View Post
While the 3% crit and -5% tracking penalties for HLCs are an insignificant sacrifice
It's like 10% damage on that laser to lose that. It's a VERY powerful tradeoff, but one everyone is willing to make.

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the tradeoff BLCs make for armor penetration is attrition damage, which is sometimes the only way to take out an exceptionally skilled opponent.
Whatever, most lasers don't even get that. That it has such a nonsense tier to begin with is silly. Also no scout takes that anyway so it doesn't matter. If attrition damage is getting you your kill, your target can be healed to full by a drone or probes whenever anyway.

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I don't think there's any aspect of BLCs that reeks of poor design, but I do think they're overtuned, and removing armor penetration would go a ways towards fixing that.
Like, there's a big delta between "yo dawg we deleted all the armor pen on scouts" and "skill laser cannon". A nerf to it while keeping it- or having it added to something else that has a lot of weaknesses, such as rapids- would do a lot to change that up.


I mean, charged plating is basically a damned starman versus anything that isn't BLC or HLC. You can listen real close and hear the music play when you press it, and it's up all the time*



*it has a small downtime, be LOS during that.

tunewalker's Avatar


tunewalker
04.20.2014 , 08:18 PM | #22
Quote: Originally Posted by Verain View Post
It's like 10% damage on that laser to lose that. It's a VERY powerful tradeoff, but one everyone is willing to make.



Whatever, most lasers don't even get that. That it has such a nonsense tier to begin with is silly. Also no scout takes that anyway so it doesn't matter. If attrition damage is getting you your kill, your target can be healed to full by a drone or probes whenever anyway.



Like, there's a big delta between "yo dawg we deleted all the armor pen on scouts" and "skill laser cannon". A nerf to it while keeping it- or having it added to something else that has a lot of weaknesses, such as rapids- would do a lot to change that up.


I mean, charged plating is basically a damned starman versus anything that isn't BLC or HLC. You can listen real close and hear the music play when you press it, and it's up all the time*



*it has a small downtime, be LOS during that.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VyfWyG_b_Eg, hide for 11 seconds.... then back to https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VyfWyG_b_Eg


Edit: I honestly think things are mostly well balanced, I think burst lasers need some fine tuning. ion Missiles need an energy drain buff, EMP missiles..... need something, and the only thing I really see as an issue these days is mobility of strike fighters. Scouts easily out do them by a significant amount and gunships have nearly the same mobility. They are slower, but the gap between Strikes and Gunships is no where near as large as between Scouts and strike or Gunships and Bombers.

Gerfaut's Avatar


Gerfaut
04.20.2014 , 08:20 PM | #23
In the current meta, slug railgun is the number one reason I would not use charged plating on a strike fighter. BLC are not a huge issue, because they have no shield piercing (or rather, they have to choose between armor piercing and a small amount of shield piercing), so they still have to get through your shield to get a kill, at least if you're at full hull at the start of the engagement. If you're already low on hull, the bleedthrough will kill you, but that is a risk you should be willing to accept when using charged plating.

On the other hand, charged plating is EXTREMELY vulnerable to weapons that have both armor piercing and shield piercing. Not only does the active shield ability offer no protection against those weapons, but they also bypass the shields to deal massive amounts of damage directly to the hull, due to shield piercing being additive to the charged plating bleedthrough.

Aside from proton torpedoes, which are a niche weapon and affect all ships equally, there are only 2 weapons in the game that have a large amount of shield piercing (28%) and also have armor piercing: slug railgun and rocket pods. Rocket pods are mostly dangerous to stationary targets and I don't really have a problem with them having both. Obviously, a strike with charged plating needs to avoid jousting against a scout using rocket pods, but evasive flying by the strike can make it difficult for the scout to land a lot of hits with the pods. Slug railgun, on the other hand, is absolutely devastating to any ship with charged plating.

Against a weapon with 28% shield piercing, the amount of shields the ship has becomes irrelevant because 48% of the damage goes directly to the hull (28% shield pierce + 20% bleedthrough). Any component that increases the size of the shields, or shield regen, or anything like that, becomes useless, because slugs (or pods) will kill the ship right through his shields. To make things worse, every gunship in the game has access to slugs and no choice is required to get both shield piercing and armor piercing: both are obtained automatically in the process of upgrading slug railguns to T3.

As long as slug railguns have both shield piercing and 100% armor piercing, charged plating will not be a viable component on strike fighters. It will remain a very niche component used by some minelayers specializing in taking/defending nodes against other minelayers, at the cost of making themselves vulnerable to other ships.

Armonddd's Avatar


Armonddd
04.20.2014 , 08:23 PM | #24
Quote: Originally Posted by Kuciwalker View Post
The fact that it is the ideal scout weapon in essentially every circumstance reeks of terrible design.
No, it reeks of overtuning. What I'm saying is that the basic concept behind BLCs is not flawed, simply the implementation.

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Quads are a reasonable alternative because of the extra range (almost 6km).
yeah but I hate quads :<

Quote: Originally Posted by Verain View Post
It's like 10% damage on that laser to lose that. It's a VERY powerful tradeoff, but one everyone is willing to make.
How do you figure? 3% crit is 4.5% damage, -5% tracking penalty is +0.1% accuracy per degree... on a weapon you should be using from maximum range with minimal tracking penalty. That's tiny.

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Whatever, most lasers don't even get that. That it has such a nonsense tier to begin with is silly. Also no scout takes that anyway so it doesn't matter. If attrition damage is getting you your kill, your target can be healed to full by a drone or probes whenever anyway.
You, uh, haven't flown scout-to-scout against many very good pilots, have you? In a game where one pilot -- one single pilot -- is holding nodes by virtue of the fact that he's on it and people can't get him off it, attrition damage is literally the only way to free up the node. Yes, the introduction of mines and hull repair makes this less likely, but it's still worth considering, and I've had a number of matches where I've wished I'd geared up my Skybolt with a different build than what it has now.

As I said, though, it's very niche. It's just not irrelevant as you seem to think it is.

Quote: Originally Posted by Verain View Post
I mean, charged plating is basically a damned starman versus anything that isn't BLC or HLC. You can listen real close and hear the music play when you press it, and it's up all the time*
20% of all damage taken is reduced by up to 99% (I must have mathed wrong somewhere when I said 96% or whatever -- 10% inherent, 20% armor, 9% crew, 60% cd). -20% damage is not starman material. And, of course, 39% is up all the time, so you're looking at 7.8% constant damage reduction.

The irony here is that charged plating is hampered by its t1 upgrade; the more damage that goes through to hull, the less total damage you take.

Also, you forgot about slugs and pods.
Space Ace of <Death Squadron>, <Black Squadron>, <Eclipse Squadron>, and <solo da>

tunewalker's Avatar


tunewalker
04.20.2014 , 09:01 PM | #25
Quote: Originally Posted by Armonddd View Post
No, it reeks of overtuning. What I'm saying is that the basic concept behind BLCs is not flawed, simply the implementation.



yeah but I hate quads :<



How do you figure? 3% crit is 4.5% damage, -5% tracking penalty is +0.1% accuracy per degree... on a weapon you should be using from maximum range with minimal tracking penalty. That's tiny.



You, uh, haven't flown scout-to-scout against many very good pilots, have you? In a game where one pilot -- one single pilot -- is holding nodes by virtue of the fact that he's on it and people can't get him off it, attrition damage is literally the only way to free up the node. Yes, the introduction of mines and hull repair makes this less likely, but it's still worth considering, and I've had a number of matches where I've wished I'd geared up my Skybolt with a different build than what it has now.

As I said, though, it's very niche. It's just not irrelevant as you seem to think it is.



20% of all damage taken is reduced by up to 99% (I must have mathed wrong somewhere when I said 96% or whatever -- 10% inherent, 20% armor, 9% crew, 60% cd). -20% damage is not starman material. And, of course, 39% is up all the time, so you're looking at 7.8% constant damage reduction.

The irony here is that charged plating is hampered by its t1 upgrade; the more damage that goes through to hull, the less total damage you take.

Also, you forgot about slugs and pods.
The shields regen, so it doesnt matter if you lose the shield. If you lose all your shields its 99% damage reduction on ALL damage taken. You lose your shields big whoop your not dieing from non-armor peircing weapons any time soon why Charge plating is up.

Armonddd's Avatar


Armonddd
04.20.2014 , 09:23 PM | #26
Guess I'm thinking about it too much from a scout's point of view.
Space Ace of <Death Squadron>, <Black Squadron>, <Eclipse Squadron>, and <solo da>

tunewalker's Avatar


tunewalker
04.20.2014 , 09:25 PM | #27
Quote: Originally Posted by Armonddd View Post
Guess I'm thinking about it too much from a scout's point of view.
what you have yet to experience is firing Clusters and light lasers at a guy with charge plating up, eating all the way through his armor and then watched as he laughed at your 3 damage a shot.

Armonddd's Avatar


Armonddd
04.20.2014 , 09:46 PM | #28
Quote: Originally Posted by tunewalker View Post
what you have yet to experience is firing Clusters and light lasers at a guy with charge plating up, eating all the way through his armor and then watched as he laughed at your 3 damage a shot.
Well, yeah, because why would I want to use light lasers without sab probe?
Space Ace of <Death Squadron>, <Black Squadron>, <Eclipse Squadron>, and <solo da>

Verain's Avatar


Verain
04.21.2014 , 01:45 AM | #29
Quote: Originally Posted by Armonddd View Post
How do you figure? 3% crit is 4.5% damage, -5% tracking penalty is +0.1% accuracy per degree... on a weapon you should be using from maximum range with minimal tracking penalty. That's tiny.
Heavy lasers are 2% penalty per degree. A degree isn't very big, so you'll quite often be getting 5% to hit off of these things. If your hit percent on the target was, say, 80% to begin with- not unreasonable as a guess- getting up to 85% is over 6% right there. If you were going from 60 to 65, then you have an 8% boost. That's before the crit even shows up to play.

Heavy lasers have massive tracking penalties compared to every other laser. A talent that gives essentially +5% to hit on all shots is a very good talent indeed.



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You, uh, haven't flown scout-to-scout against many very good pilots, have you?
Don't start with this personal attack crap.

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In a game where one pilot -- one single pilot -- is holding nodes by virtue of the fact that he's on it and people can't get him off it, attrition damage is literally the only way to free up the node.
Two coordinated scouts or strikes worked wonderful before. Certainly we didn't feel the need to hope someone wandered by with shield bleed through :/


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20% of all damage taken is reduced by up to 99% (I must have mathed wrong somewhere when I said 96% or whatever -- 10% inherent, 20% armor, 9% crew, 60% cd). -20% damage is not starman material. And, of course, 39% is up all the time, so you're looking at 7.8% constant damage reduction.
No, it's absolutely invincible. The shield damage is not relevant almost ever, but definitely not versus a charged plating build. Essentially no damage goes through.

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The irony here is that charged plating is hampered by its t1 upgrade; the more damage that goes through to hull, the less total damage you take.
No, that is not how shields work. Damage to shields is not damage to you. You can live with no shields, but not no hull.

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Also, you forgot about slugs and pods.
Of course other attacks go through. My point is that you are invincible to dogfighting unless someone has BLC or HLC. Clearly a slug will tear you up, or a proton, or whatever. Those are pretty choreographed though- no one surprise slugs you unless you were distracted, no one surprise protons you unless you were tricked, etc.

Verain's Avatar


Verain
04.21.2014 , 01:54 AM | #30
Quote: Originally Posted by Armonddd View Post
Well, yeah, because why would I want to use light lasers without sab probe?
If your sab probe is set to disable shields you may yet get the last laugh here, but the damage LLC does to a charged plating build is truly balls when the plating is active- even if they are stationary.


For what it is worth, I'd like to see charged plating designed differently, and then the armor ignore stuff could get nerfed some, and armor could have some more meaning. But when one guy runs around totally immune to a lot of the weapons, that seems odd to me.