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The new "support" ships are pointless right now.

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Galactic Starfighter
The new "support" ships are pointless right now.

Armonddd's Avatar


Armonddd
04.16.2014 , 02:55 PM | #11
thanks for eating my enormous post, internet

tl;dr: all ships are compared to similar ships; dogfighters have distinct advantages/disadvantages depending on class and build, gunships are too similar to be a meaningful choice, and support ships have too much overlap with bombers without the massive weaponry/class defensive advantages, can reduce overlap by buffing command skills to support different styles of play for each class, similar to how ground tanks/healers are theoretically viable always but specialized for different situations

tensor creates an arms race of speed at the start of a match (bad) and is dangerous when people are trying to make precision maneuvers using skills they've honed over the past four months (bad), should change to massive sensor buff and +12% evasion (cap at 35% evasion before other active abilities) with t5 choice between missile break + 5s immunity or 10s +10% crit +25% surge

combat command is only really good if you're hanging around gunships sniping scouts, which is a bad strategy, and should be changed to give +10% damage with power to weapons, +10% shield pool with power to shields, -8% maneuver cost with power to engines, and user gets double the bonuses if they hit a buddy with it

remote slicing is generally an ok idea, but would be much better if it were 25% (upgraded) shield bleedthrough instead of tiny shield dot and -75% regen for 5s instead of penalty to max power pool

all three could use upgraded range/radius with limited number of maximum targets (favoring closest first)

repair probes should probably be a little bit nicer, that cd nerf was dramatic as gophers
Space Ace of <Death Squadron>, <Black Squadron>, <Eclipse Squadron>, and <solo da>

Nemarus's Avatar


Nemarus
04.16.2014 , 03:12 PM | #12
Quote: Originally Posted by Armonddd View Post
combat command is only really good if you're hanging around gunships sniping scouts, which is a bad strategy, and should be changed to give +10% damage with power to weapons, +10% shield pool with power to shields, -8% maneuver cost with power to engines, and user gets double the bonuses if they hit a buddy with it
I love this. It makes Combat Command a jack of all trades usable for a variety of purposes.

Though instead of 10% shield pool, which may not be useful if your shields aren't full or if you're immediately hit, I'd make it reduce shield regen delay.

Or heck, just make Combat Command remove ALL regen delay (from L, S, and E) for a set time. That would be universally useful.
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Altheran's Avatar


Altheran
04.16.2014 , 03:14 PM | #13
Quote: Originally Posted by Nemarus View Post
Or heck, just make Combat Command remove ALL regen delay (from L, S, and E) for a set time. That would be universally useful.
I fear it may be a bit too much.

Armonddd's Avatar


Armonddd
04.16.2014 , 03:22 PM | #14
Quote: Originally Posted by Nemarus View Post
I love this. It makes Combat Command a jack of all trades usable for a variety of purposes.
In the Post That Was, which became Sacrificed to the Great Gods of Internet Noms, I mentioned something about how this seems to have been the design intent from the start -- after all, everyone should be shooting things a lot of the time, while Tensor Field, Remote Slicing, and Repair Drones all favor a particular playstyle and are only available to classes that support that playstyle.. Unfortunately, Combat Command is rather weak at making people better at shoots, and it's hard to make it stronger at shoots without introducing burst damage (which is scout territory, ostensibly).

Quote:
Though instead of 10% shield pool, which may not be useful if your shields aren't full or if you're immediately hit, I'd make it reduce shield regen delay.
I could see both, really, but...

Quote:
Or heck, just make Combat Command remove ALL regen delay (from L, S, and E) for a set time. That would be universally useful.
I like this better, for shields and engines. The only problem is that certain builds (cough scouts cough) stack engine regen pretty hard, and removing the regen delay would be rather strong for them. For weapons, power regen is kind of not amazing given that most weapons are balanced around not having power problems as long as you're accurate (which is a good thing), and getting +damage from your buddy "feels better".

Actually, if we really want to see the positive reinforcement (which I think is Pretty Important for people playing support roles), Combat Command would give blaster shots a "sticky bomb" effect: each hit applies a stacking debuff that deals damage after 0.5 seconds, credited to the command ship (thus, counts towards their damage/dps on the leaderboard and shows up on their screen, instead of their ally's).

Also, side note, I think all of these effects should depend on the ship's power distribution is currently set -- I feel like all at once would be too powerful (or at least, too potentially problematic). I don't think Combat Command should be "be better at everything", I think it should be "be better at now". It's also more interesting that way IMO.
Space Ace of <Death Squadron>, <Black Squadron>, <Eclipse Squadron>, and <solo da>

Devrius's Avatar


Devrius
04.16.2014 , 03:24 PM | #15
Quote: Originally Posted by Armonddd View Post
thanks for eating my enormous post, internet

tl;dr: all ships are compared to similar ships; dogfighters have distinct advantages/disadvantages depending on class and build, gunships are too similar to be a meaningful choice, and support ships have too much overlap with bombers without the massive weaponry/class defensive advantages, can reduce overlap by buffing command skills to support different styles of play for each class, similar to how ground tanks/healers are theoretically viable always but specialized for different situations

tensor creates an arms race of speed at the start of a match (bad) and is dangerous when people are trying to make precision maneuvers using skills they've honed over the past four months (bad), should change to massive sensor buff and +12% evasion (cap at 35% evasion before other active abilities) with t5 choice between missile break + 5s immunity or 10s +10% crit +25% surge

combat command is only really good if you're hanging around gunships sniping scouts, which is a bad strategy, and should be changed to give +10% damage with power to weapons, +10% shield pool with power to shields, -8% maneuver cost with power to engines, and user gets double the bonuses if they hit a buddy with it

remote slicing is generally an ok idea, but would be much better if it were 25% (upgraded) shield bleedthrough instead of tiny shield dot and -75% regen for 5s instead of penalty to max power pool

all three could use upgraded range/radius with limited number of maximum targets (favoring closest first)

repair probes should probably be a little bit nicer, that cd nerf was dramatic as gophers
This is what I was getting at, the new ships trade *way* too much fire power for overly specialized support options, if they were more broad in what they buffed they could be a great boon to your squad.

Right now the only ones doing well on these ships are those who would have done well in any ship and actually a lot better in any other scout/strike fighter.

Pilgrim_Grey's Avatar


Pilgrim_Grey
04.16.2014 , 08:30 PM | #16
I don't really mind tensor field boosting speed, especially since the scout ship gives up a booster slot with its setup. It gives a bit of maneuverability and defensive buffing, which isn't a bad thing for what it is. I'd actually dislike having some of the engine boosts removed... there are times where speed is helpful for everyone. But a bit more buffing to defense would help it be more of a good defensive support.

I agree that combat command just doesn't do enough... I'm sure they were worried about it being too powerful, but it's just too weak as it is. It's got to fill the offensive support role that it seems to be set up to be, like tensor is supposed to be defensive. Both could work better in those roles, though tensor does it better.

Having seen these support ships, I kind of have to wonder why they gave bombers so many of the same abilities, unless it's to fulfill the niche of people who don't mind support roles but hate bombers (like me... and it sure seems like most people don't mind flying bombers).
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vladunk's Avatar


vladunk
04.18.2014 , 07:02 AM | #17
Give them 2 of the support abilities instead of just 1.

Verain's Avatar


Verain
04.18.2014 , 07:35 AM | #18
I just am not sure that they need buffs.

I think that it's good that you don't think "I've gotta fly this". I wouldn't want these ships to be super common. I think buffing them much runs the risk that you'd want to turn your strike and scout wings mostly into them- I mean, if you and two wings are able to rotate tensor field or command or repair probes, then I think it would be really hard to justify ANYONE playing the other two types of scouts or strikes in that scenario.

I think the current setup hits a balance. It's obvious that the disadvantages, especially in the secondary weapons and lack of thrusters, are meaningful, and the power lets your type1 and type2 ships have a supremacy advantage over similar ships without such an ally.


Honestly ask yourself if the changes you want wouldn't result in one of the best parties possible being really heavy on the type 3s. I already think you pretty badly want one of each in any match.

Slivovidze's Avatar


Slivovidze
04.18.2014 , 09:32 AM | #19
Also, the ships are still new-ish. I doubt masses have them mastered (I don't). I bet once people master them, they will feel less useless.

Armonddd's Avatar


Armonddd
04.18.2014 , 10:04 AM | #20
Quote: Originally Posted by Verain View Post
Honestly ask yourself if the changes you want wouldn't result in one of the best parties possible being really heavy on the type 3s. I already think you pretty badly want one of each in any match.
This is a natural consequence of a support class. Good players can get a lot out of them (as long as the numbers allow it), and so an optimal party will always include a few support characters. You can see this with tanks and healers, medics and engineers, elementalists and mesmers. I don't think it's at all a bad thing that a support class can have very strong team synergy in the right hands; in my experience, games become degenerate when it's viable to sacrifice support characters for offensive characters.

In fact, let's go back in time a bit to December. Remember what class filled the support role? Yeah, it was gunships. Remember what class made your team win if you had enough good players flying them? Yeah, that was also gunships. This thread isn't about "gunships were fine" or "gunships were stupid p2w", but consider the concept: a support class was dominant in good hands and fodder in bad. Is that a bad thing? I think not.

The flip side of the coin is when the numbers don't actually allow the current support classes to be good. I've never noticed Combat Command doing anything, I actively avoid players with Tensor Field after the start of a match, and Repair Probes feel a bit overnerfed. Remote Slicing is a poor man's EMP field and I honestly don't see how they justify the component slot given the weaknesses EMP field has demonstrated. Combine all that with the inherent flaws in mobility and weaponry, and you simply have a pair of underpowered classes.
Space Ace of <Death Squadron>, <Black Squadron>, <Eclipse Squadron>, and <solo da>