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DISCUSSION: So what, exactly, is a GSF Ace?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Galactic Starfighter
DISCUSSION: So what, exactly, is a GSF Ace?

GooberNoob's Avatar


GooberNoob
03.22.2014 , 05:38 PM | #11
Quote: Originally Posted by Sidenti View Post
In Meatspace PvP, a combat aviator is considered an "ace" once they hit five confirmed kills. Now, obviously, in order to do that the pilot has to stay alive to hit five kills, so we're looking at a minimum kill/death ratio of 5:1.
an ace in "meatspace" is indeed someone with 5 kills, but what are they talking about when they say kills? If you shot down a single bomber in ww2 chances are you killed 5 people but that doesn't make you an ace. If you did a single bombing run as a bombardier in a b-17 chances are you killed 5 people so that's not it. if an aviator shot down 5 enemy aircraft but all his victims successfully bailed out and lived is he an ace? yep.

If you want to go by "meatspace" standards, anyone who has destroyed more then 5 ships over their career is an ace regardless of their K/D ratio. We need a different standard.

To me an ace is someone I take note of because they are always doing far better then average, someone that in a game full of otherwise unknown players you would be worried about being on the other team.

mr_sim's Avatar


mr_sim
03.22.2014 , 05:51 PM | #12
Quote: Originally Posted by Armonddd View Post
As a computer programmer, I have no idea how to interpret this.

If (kills + half assists)/death ratio is greater than one plus total matches played...?
That's because you translated the achievement into a numerical constant where as it's a statistical check stop.

Due to respawn the traditional definition of Ace = 5 Career kills is impractical even if it's 5 match kills. Due to team makeup the average of more then 5 per match is a ludicrously high number that is impractical to maintain.

If in TDM where 50 kill = end of match then 50/12 = 4.17 meaning it is statistically impossible to have a 12 man team of Aces if an average of 5 kills must be maintained. However it is realistically possible to find a team of players by non-quantifiable factors that is full of Aces. More simply put high number of kills per match does not accurately measure a players competence as the possible number of kills is limited.

So enter the formula.

if you kill more then you die(counting Assist @ 0.5)
if you have played a significant number of matches
then you are an Ace.

or perhaps I should have written it as

Fleet Captain[(Kills + 0.5Assists) / Deaths] = >1 = Ace
Where Fleet Captain = 1 if you have the achievement
or Fleet Captain = 0 if you have not played enough matches

Quote: Originally Posted by Gavin_Kelvar View Post
I'd largely agree with mr_sim with a few additions of my own:

an Ace is someone who knows how to play the objective. This does not mean that they have 500 objective points at the end of the match but rather a player who knows how to identify where they are needed most on the field and regardless of ship type can and will assist the team at that location. I've seen too many supposed "aces" sit in their bomber at the team's only sat during a domination round, get 3 or less kills/assists combined, wrack up 400-500 objective points but ultimately have been a major contributor to the team's loss by not lifting a finger to help the team win.

An Ace also understands their ship's role. This means that when they're flying a striker they understand that their priority is taking out armored targets such as bombers. Likewise if they're in a scout they know that they should leave bombers to the strikers and focus on the escort fighters first. Ultimately it's distinguished by the pilot's ability to triage targets based on what their ship is best suited to handling and not becoming hell bent on focusing on specific ship types regardless of what ship they're flying.
Yeah I basically had this in mind but was already too wordy as it was. I completely agree and have maintained the the same spirit as your words for myself from the get go.
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mr_sim's Avatar


mr_sim
03.22.2014 , 05:58 PM | #13
Quote: Originally Posted by GooberNoob View Post
an ace in "meatspace" is indeed someone with 5 kills, but what are they talking about when they say kills? If you shot down a single bomber in ww2 chances are you killed 5 people but that doesn't make you an ace. If you did a single bombing run as a bombardier in a b-17 chances are you killed 5 people so that's not it. if an aviator shot down 5 enemy aircraft but all his victims successfully bailed out and lived is he an ace? yep.

If you want to go by "meatspace" standards, anyone who has destroyed more then 5 ships over their career is an ace regardless of their K/D ratio. We need a different standard.

To me an ace is someone I take note of because they are always doing far better then average, someone that in a game full of otherwise unknown players you would be worried about being on the other team.
Just don't over elevate the term. The meatspace term Ace reflects more a pilots survival skills then killing skills in reality. I agree that anyone who you remember due to superior piloting abilities you see in match and not on the end score likely deserves the title of Ace.

Also in meatspace it is 5 aircraft shot down, no human deaths required. Not sure if it has to be 5 fighters or not though.
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GooberNoob's Avatar


GooberNoob
03.22.2014 , 06:10 PM | #14
Quote: Originally Posted by mr_sim View Post
Also in meatspace it is 5 aircraft shot down, no human deaths required.
That was my point.

Zharik's Avatar


Zharik
03.22.2014 , 07:29 PM | #15
Quote: Originally Posted by Gavin_Kelvar View Post
I've seen too many supposed "aces" sit in their bomber at the team's only sat during a domination round, get 3 or less kills/assists combined, wrack up 400-500 objective points but ultimately have been a major contributor to the team's loss by not lifting a finger to help the team win.
Gawd I can't stress this ^^ enough... but the game rewards that behavior in the form of more requisition earned. If you have 7-8 minutes of defending time and your team lost, you should have switched to offense way before that (at less than the 2 minute mark).
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Gavin_Kelvar's Avatar


Gavin_Kelvar
03.22.2014 , 08:22 PM | #16
Quote: Originally Posted by Zharik View Post
Gawd I can't stress this ^^ enough... but the game rewards that behavior in the form of more requisition earned. If you have 7-8 minutes of defending time and your team lost, you should have switched to offense way before that (at less than the 2 minute mark).
Maybe make a check where that behavior can trigger "non-contributor"? For example make defense points subject to a similar standard as sitting AFK (maybe with 30 extra seconds on the timer?). Obviously they'd need to put in a failsafe exclusive to this that sets so that you can't suicide to avoid "non-contributor" and then just keep going back to the same sat to camp it (perhaps make it so that only death at the hands of an enemy resets the non-contributor clock timer). This "non-contributor" clock functioning separate from the existing one.

I've seriously seen guys never once go on offense, not even at the two minute mark. Some of them are on in the "aces" list and honestly I'm positive they don't belong there as they've caused my team to lose more than once by doing the above. When we've won the fact that they contributed to the victory was purely by coincidence that the sat they decided to camp happened to be the one that got attacked most and not at all by intent to be where they could help the team most.

OscarDivine's Avatar


OscarDivine
03.22.2014 , 09:02 PM | #17
Here is what an ace is to me:

-see the name on the roster, immediately notify and warn team about them.
- say, "oh sht" when they snag a damage overcharge and hope to God I don't get focus fired.
- Pilots I know when I get into a Dogfight with, I Just Escape Because I Know It Will Tie Me Up For Several Minutes and neither of us will get anywhere for it.
- Pilots I fear actually flying head to head against and actively avoid it.
- Pilots I would gladly and preferably group with than fly against simply because it would be so much harder, but since we are usually on opposing factions, I can't.
- Pilots who force players on the opposing team to just exit battle before the Round even begins because they already know how it will end up.

MystbladeWA's Avatar


MystbladeWA
03.22.2014 , 09:28 PM | #18
Do we have to do this? Really?

Predictably this thread, just like the Aces thread, has kicked up a myriad of different criteria for what an "Ace" is. There will never be a consensus, and more importantly, why do we care?

Have fun, play the game, win the matches you can and blow pixels up. Its really that simple.
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Nemarus's Avatar


Nemarus
03.22.2014 , 10:52 PM | #19
I think there are definitely two tiers.

An Ace is a competent and skilled pilot who will routinely get 5-10 kills (20-40k damage) and will easily handle new pilots.

A Top Ace (or "Elite") is a pilot who, if not countered, will single handedly win a Deathmatch (with 20+ kills, 60-120k damage) or, in the case of Domination, single handedly take and defend a node against many enemy defenders.

To counter a Top Ace usually requires devoted attention from 2-4 Aces or another Top Ace. And usually "countering" just involves chasing them such that they have to spend most of their time evading.
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mr_sim's Avatar


mr_sim
03.22.2014 , 11:25 PM | #20
Quote: Originally Posted by Nemarus View Post
I think there are definitely two tiers.

An Ace is a competent and skilled pilot who will routinely get 5-10 kills (20-40k damage) and will easily handle new pilots.

A Top Ace (or "Elite") is a pilot who, if not countered, will single handedly win a Deathmatch (with 20+ kills, 60-120k damage) or, in the case of Domination, single handedly take and defend a node against many enemy defenders.

To counter a Top Ace usually requires devoted attention from 2-4 Aces or another Top Ace. And usually "countering" just involves chasing them such that they have to spend most of their time evading.
Your expectations are too high for the numbers, 5-10 kills is way too high. You need to think relativistically any player averaging 5-10 kills is only doing so by being built up to that level by the competency of their team. Meaning your criteria too heavily favors premades and disfavors solo ques. No it must actively reflect superior performance even in the worst matchmaking.

For example I once scored ~40% of all kills in one match, I only did this because we lost 6 - 50 and I had 2 kills 1 assist. If such odds were repeated in a fictional scenario where no player knew to begin focusing certain players, I would expect to see my personal score rise slightly as I adjusted for such uphill battling, yet I do not believe I would ever achieve 5-10 kills in such a battle.

My point being that team is too large a factor in performance, any player who can bag 2 kills in such a lopsided match is already something special. Which is why I maintain an Ace to only require a KTD of greater then 1, and must have completed a significant number of battles. At this point I would consider someone a potential Ace. The other factor is they must be a recognized name, recognized for their flying and association to progress for their team.
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