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Stasie's Galactic Starfighter Guide (Ships, Components, Crew, Tips)

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Galactic Starfighter
Stasie's Galactic Starfighter Guide (Ships, Components, Crew, Tips)
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Sindariel's Avatar


Sindariel
03.15.2014 , 09:08 AM | #21
Quote: Originally Posted by Armonddd View Post
I do have one major complaint, though: with regards to targeting telemetry, please don't encourage people to use objectively bad components. I had a mathy thread about this a while ago, but the tl;dr is that +25% surge +15% accuracy +10% crit just flat out does not ever compare to +33% rate of fire +10% damage.
Your math is only true when you can hold the trigger on your opponent for several seconds, which is rarely the case in fast paced dogfights (except against Bombers, Gunships and when you're sneaking up behind someone).

Targeting Telemetry excels in situations where you have only a few opportunities and short windows to land some hits or fire off a missile, since it has a short CD and can be used more regular and also affects secondary weaponry.

Both are good. In different situations!

Back to topic:

I haven't read the whole guide, but at first sight it looks more like a personal build suggestion than a guide to me, but not everything that works great for you, does work great for others.
People need to figure out themselves what works good for them and for this reason, you should also cover other components if you want to write a real guide.

Verain's Avatar


Verain
03.15.2014 , 10:02 AM | #22
Quote: Originally Posted by Ramalina View Post
That's an awfully small payoff for the amount of requisition you spend to master a major component slot.
This quote really confuses me. I mean, I don't think anyone is recommended that on your scout you just tunnel systems component or whatever. And long term, you are of course going to master all the components you are using. So this line really makes no sense to me at all.

Quote:
Evasion is the best per unit defensive stat, but it's not good enough at that price.
The "price" is that you don't have blaster overcharge (or another systems component).

Quote:
For Telemetry to be worth it for a type 2 scout (ed) you need to use it liberally and in a way that benefits from as many of it's utility functions as possible.
No, you just need to get more or superior utility out of it than you would the other available slot choices.


Quote:
I'd say it's a decent but not great choice for a highly skilled pilot.
How many games have you played with mastered telemetry and mastered overcharge?

Stasie's post doesn't ignore blaster overcharge, but he does tell you why you would want targeting telemetry (and I suspect many posters in this thread don't even know that it boosts secondary weapons), and why he uses it. Remember: this isn't "stuff one guy built and likes". And it most certainly isn't "stuff that doesn't work for GOOD pilots".

Quote:
You could make a case that it beats blaster overcharge for a pilot so new to the game
That is not what he said. Stasie has so many games with every ship and so many components that it is a resource not really seen on these forums- add that to his discussions with other pilots, and it's easily the best guide on the forums. You are free to dismiss it, but to do so is an almost laughable waste. But definitely don't give bad advice to other folks based on nowhere near as much playtime and discussion.


Quote:
Like many component choices in GSF it's nuanced and situational with no single choice guaranteed to be a global optimum.
I doubt he'd argue with you here. Obviously each system choice offers something different. What he's providing is a solid build with reasoning behind each piece. If blaster overcharge was overall better for the role he is promoting, he would recommend it. He does discuss where it would go the other way before even launching into the build.

Quote:
I haven't read the whole guide, but at first sight it looks more like a personal build suggestion than a guide to me, but not everything that works great for you, does work great for others.
The effort that went into this guide is rather high. Reading is an order of magnitude less effort than writing. You couldn't even be arsed to read it entirely before deriding it as a "personal build suggestion"? Why on earth would he research, write, and post a "personal build suggestion"? He's already the top ace and has thousands of games, do you think he couldn't remember whether to take "missile break" or "3 seconds more evasion" if he didn't write it down?


If anything, I think the guide should be more prescriptive, especially with ships like the gunship which have no real build diversity, and with bad components that I would call out, such as Hydro Spanner. But of course then the thread becomes a bunch of "Hey, *I* use that, and my thirty-fiving totally saved the game this one time on this satellite!" I swear!

Armonddd's Avatar


Armonddd
03.15.2014 , 11:42 AM | #23
Quote: Originally Posted by Drakkolich View Post
So the reason we recomend Targ Telem is basically the ship is as evasive as possible, basically just taking it for the extra 8% evasion, but the extra dmg is nice. It has a 30 sec cd with a 15 sec duration so you basically get that 8% evasion 50% of the match. Now we did also recommend that if you wanted a full dmg build its there in the description, the full gunship killing build. I hope that helps clear up why we suggested those
I'd suggest that the extra booster time from boost recharger would more than make up for lacking the 8% evasion, if that's what you're going for.

Quote: Originally Posted by Verain View Post
How many games have you run with mastered telemetry?

If your answer is "I did math and ignored the cooldown and the defense, as well as the relative value of accuracy versus a high evasion opponent, and therefore I just use blaster overcharge", which I strongly suspect it is... well, that is missing a lot.
I like how when I asked for a tl;dr of your rapid fire thread your response was something along the lines of "this isn't *********** twitter", but you've obviously not read my BO/TT thread.

Quote: Originally Posted by Sindariel View Post
Your math is only true when you can hold the trigger on your opponent for several seconds, which is rarely the case in fast paced dogfights (except against Bombers, Gunships and when you're sneaking up behind someone).
I would argue that those are the situations you're supposed to be putting yourself in. Bombers and gunships are a huge threat, and sneaking up behind people is obviously the best way to kill them ("don't fight fair, fight to win").
Space Ace of <Death Squadron>, <Black Squadron>, <Eclipse Squadron>, and <solo da>

Ramalina's Avatar


Ramalina
03.15.2014 , 11:52 AM | #24
One of the ways that GSF follow a standard MMORPG model is that you basically have a stat budget for gear. If you're trying to make a high performance gear build, the stats and other effects of a component need to work well with other components in the build.

Assuming you're doing reasonably well at using cooldowns as available in appropriate situations:

As a pure offense component, Targeting Telemetry is at the very best, a mediocre choice.

As a pure defensive component it is flat out bad.

As a pure utility component it's pretty good.

Combine all three together and it's very good or maybe even excellent.

Basically its stat itemization is split into three different sub-categories, and if you only effectively use benefits from one of those pools, or even two, you're going to have a very hard time getting equivalent performance to a well designed component that you use reasonably well that has all of its allocation in one pool. For example Blaster Overcharge or Booster Recharge.

If you miss with 75% of your blaster overcharge shots, then it's a different story, but that's not even close to the neighborhood of optimal utilization.

There are other considerations too. If you gain no benefit from dps increases or boost endurance increases due to some combination of build and flying style, then Targeting Telemetry can suddenly be a best choice purely for the evasion. It doesn't make it a good defensive component, but a bad defensive component is still better than no component at all, which is effectively what you have if you're not getting any value from the other two possible component options or the dps element of TT (unlikely in the case of a type 2 scout, but I'm thinking more about generalized comparative value of components here).

I didn't say TT was a bad choice in that slot the way the other fellow did, I pointed out that the comparative value depends greatly on pilot skill, in particular in the ability to get close to the full measure of the component's potential utility in combat. Also implying that a component with utility in multiple areas is probably harder to fully exploit for many pilots than a component with utility in only one area.

As far as cost, there are two costs. One is the relative value of one component versus another. The other is requisition spent on an inferior (for a specific build for a specific pilot) component choice while still slogging through the GSF gear grind. If your eventual goal is full mastery of all ships, that's probably a trivial cost in time where inappropriate gear slightly r e t a r d s your rate of requisition earning, but for people only part way through gearing a small subset of the available ships it could be a cost worth considering in terms of time spent to get to the gear set that they want.

Also if you're quoting in sections Verain, please at least on the first quote when switching sources, identify the source. Yeah, sure, the other person you quote is in the post directly above yours, but do we really expect a lazy reader to notice that?

Well, maybe I just shouldn't care if lazy readers get confused about who wrote what.

As far as arguments for or against TT go, Verain, I'm not impressed by, "some guy on my server who spends a lot of time in GSF likes it," even if they made really awesome posts to start a really awesome thread. Pointing out merits of TT, such as that the crit buff is for both primary and secondary weapons, those are the sorts of points I like to see, so keep 'em coming.
"A padawan's master sets their Jedi trial, Rajivari set mine."
- Zhe Lian, Sage.

Twitch

DamascusAdontise's Avatar


DamascusAdontise
03.15.2014 , 12:46 PM | #25
First off, excellent post, excellent read. I agree with most of it, the stuff I don't boils down to personal choice, not bad advice.

I think Targeting Telemetry can be considered a utility choice whereas blaster overcharge is purely offensive.

Targeting Telemetry is an awesome choice for the high evasion builds that many people like to use, in fact since 2.6 its the only real choice to get the evasion you need / want. It has additional value as the cooldown is shorter than Blaster Overcharge.

Despite all of this, I still use Blaster Overcharge simply for the following fact:

Im not that great at aiming so I have to do all / most of my damage in a quick burst. Blaster Overcharge excells at this, and thus is a better choice for me.

For the many and in depth reasons listed by Stasie Targeting Telemetry is a more comprehensive choice for most pilots (including defensive and offensive abilities all of which are valuable). For me though until something changes Ill be using BOC and Bypass to get the frontloaded DPS I need.

(the heated discussion here is nothing new, you should have heard the debates that drove this thread in the first place, there are many ways to get from point a to point b and the advice here was mulled around by many good pilots before making its way here, despite all that they are still just suggestions - but good ones at that)
Ahazi Server Refugee (Beta - Shutdown) RIP TIE & Twin Ion
[Circle of Emnity] - Pincer - Ocula Pilot - The Bastion
New to GSF? Look Here!. // And Here!

Verain's Avatar


Verain
03.15.2014 , 01:12 PM | #26
Quote: Originally Posted by Armonddd View Post
I'd suggest that the extra booster time from boost recharger would more than make up for lacking the 8% evasion, if that's what you're going for.
If you are running a scout with 33% base evasion and press nothing else, the 8% evasion reduces your damage taken by around 12%. If you press it during, say, distortion field, the 8% evasion reduces your damage taken by 20%. If you press it during running interference and distortion field, it's a 40%+ reduction.

I don't see that as a valid comparison. Those two things are pretty orthogonal.

Quote:
I like how when I asked for a tl;dr of your rapid fire thread your response was something along the lines of "this isn't *********** twitter", but you've obviously not read my BO/TT thread.
But you don't. Here's are two relevant formulas you list:

Damage done by ship with targeting telemetry and lock-on weapons = (b * 1.224 * (h + 0.1)) + (m * 1.224 * EHM)
Damage done by ship with blaster overcharge = (b * 1.468 * h) + (m * EHM)


You reduce the m damage (missile) by an effective hit for missiles (your EHM), pointing out that many opponents will dodge your missiles or break them. That's a fair factor. Where is the ACC factor for b? The factor representing user aim, you know, the same factor you included for missiles? More importantly, where is the factor representing all the time lost when an opponent may be out of blaster range but in missile range, or off of exact center, where blasters take an increasingly large accuracy penalty (a much smaller h)? You totally ignore this. Your math models a case where you are dpsing a stationary target with a ludicrous amount of health. If that ever happened, then blaster overcharge would be essentially mandatory.

But it doesn't.


Oh, your multipliers? The 1.468 and the 1.224? Incorrect.

Here's your line:

"Blaster overcharge increases the damage of your lasers by a whopping +52.2%. Factoring in uptime, you get +15.6% blaster damage over a 40 second period (again, assuming you're firing about as much when it's up as when it's down). Over a 120 second period, you get three uses, or +46.8% damage."

Your last step is incorrect. You can't multiply by uses without dividing by time. The 15.6% blaster damage increase over 40 seconds is where you should stop. You get a 15.6% increase over a 40 second period. Over an 80 second period, you ALSO get a 15.6% damage increase. Over a 120 second period, you ALSO get a 15.60% damage increase. In fact, at anything divided by 40 (stopping the moment the cooldown comes back up in all cases) it's 15.6%. At anything not divided by 40, the value is a bit higher. You choose 120 as a value where both cooldowns are coming off cooldown (TT for the fifth time, BO for the fourth time, having gained four uses of TT and three uses of BO).

If you aren't following, pretend that instead of a 120 second period, we modeled a 1200 second period. Would you argue that blaster overcharge was giving you a 468% damage increase over that time, but targeting telemetry was at 224% increase? It should be obvious that this is incorrect.

If you are averaging over time- which is a HUGE abstraction- then blaster overcharge is around 15% and targeting telemetry is around... I'm not sure where you get your number, which is 5.6%. I see it as more around 6%, more if the weapon in question actually has a crit rate that isn't 0% base.

Damage done by ship with targeting telemetry and lock-on weapons = (b * 1.06 * (h + 0.05) * ACC) + (m * 1.06 * EHM)
Damage done by ship with blaster overcharge = (b * 1.15 * h * ACC) + (m * EHM)


This changes many of your conclusions. Or it should, at least. h matters a lot, especially when it sub 20%, which it OFTEN is, but it doesn't take very much for it to be the dominant factor now that you don't have a really large and false multiplier on b.


But the whole thing here is still averaged over time. In practice, much more of your time in combat has the cooldowns up than down, and the evasive boost is quite valuable during that time. More importantly, your enemies also blow cooldowns, and targeting telemetry reduces the value of these in a way blaster overcharge does not.



I'm not saying don't use blaster overcharge. I am saying that Stasie's OP is correct to recommend it as the baseline default.

zaskar's Avatar


zaskar
03.15.2014 , 01:19 PM | #27
As soon as I saw he had recommendations for the new ships I called ********. No one had had any time in them but devs, at least enough to make solid choices on systems and gameplay.

TrinityLyre's Avatar


TrinityLyre
03.15.2014 , 01:20 PM | #28
Quote: Originally Posted by Ramalina View Post
<strike fighter builds>
Awesome! Thanks for the contribution and the formatting! I'll have to try this particular setup, I haven't played my Pike/Quell often enough because lately I've been working on additional GSF achievements.

Quote: Originally Posted by Armonddd View Post
... use of retro thrusters and boost can minimize your damage taken.
That's something I actually use as well and neglected to mention, thank you for the heads up. I will add this in! It's definitely useful information.

Quote: Originally Posted by Armonddd View Post
I read the t2 scout section... I think you don't do enough justice to other builds...
I definitely don't list them all, as I mentioned that could take an awfully long time and I don't specialize more in one ship than the others. I gave an alternative build at the start of the Sting/Flashfire section, but it certainly doesn't encompass all possible specs. This is where I could use additional help from savvy T2 scouts like yourself! Ramalina's contribution with strike fighter builds definitely helps add variety to the thread and gives readers more options and logic. I think I'll link builds here in the appropriate sections.

Quote: Originally Posted by Armonddd View Post
The only time telemetry pulls ahead in DPS is when your relative accuracy (i.e. weapon accuracy minus target's evasion) is under 70%, which is pretty rare given actual accuracy and evasion values (especially with precision and post-nerf dfield etc).
I guess that really depends on who/what you're fighting. I don't believe there's any ideal build that covers all situations and I think I mentioned as much (if not, I just did right now). With Burst Laser Cannons, you're not likely to have too much trouble handling strikes if you stay on their tail. I don't feel like Retro Thrusters would ever be optimal for killing gunships, I listed a gunship-killer build for the T1 scout (and gave reasons as to why above it).

T2 scouts are another matter. 33% evasion base on a T2 scout + 35% (DF) + either 30% (Retro) or 15% (Running Inter) is 98% or 83% evasion. That's not even counting the additional evasion from TT if you were to spec that way. Even at best-case scenario shots at 500m or less (which is DEFINITELY not every shot), you have less than 70% accuracy (123% BLC at 500m or less + let's say 20% Servo Jammer or In Your Sights = 143%. 143% - worst case 83% = 60% accuracy.). Based on your statement, you'll run into this situation against my T2 scout build pretty much every time. If I did the math wrong or don't understand it properly, I hope I at least conveyed the thought well enough. I definitely don't think it's worthless, though I agree it might not be as useful in games that are horribly skewed in your favor.

Quote: Originally Posted by Morgrid View Post
Couple of odd choices on the Razorwire. But nonetheless a good read.
Thank you! What about the Razorwire did you find odd? Maybe you could suggest some alternatives? I went with damage reduction on it to make it a bit more distinct in flavor to the Legion/Warcarrier, though I've run a pretty typical build on it as well.

Quote: Originally Posted by Ramalina View Post
Oh, and coming at it from a sim player's perspective, if you're not flying as part of a well coordinated team you are by definition an incompetent pilot.
I tend to agree with this sentiment and generally enjoy playing with friends much more than solo queues where every enemy is out for my blood. Having a buddy makes it easier to coordinate and play as a real team (I know, no brainer).

Quote: Originally Posted by Ramalina View Post
Like many component choices in GSF it's nuanced and situational with no single choice guaranteed to be a global optimum.
100% agree here, which ties in to my reply for the next quote...

Quote: Originally Posted by Sindariel View Post
I haven't read the whole guide, but at first sight it looks more like a personal build suggestion than a guide to me, but not everything that works great for you, does work great for others.
This is why I've listed what I use and why, rather than analyze each component in the game and say "don't use this because so and so." If someone else wishes to do that or becomes a popular request (which I haven't seen quite yet, this was mostly done because of the frequent whispers I get) I'd be willing to work on something to that effect. I agree that each player has their own playing style (look at Ramalina's strike fighter builds, quite different!), and hopefully more contributions will reflect that and give readers more variety.

Quote: Originally Posted by Armonddd View Post
I would argue that those are the situations you're supposed to be putting yourself in. Bombers and gunships are a huge threat, and sneaking up behind people is obviously the best way to kill them ("don't fight fair, fight to win").
Love the quote, I think I referenced something to this effect somewhere in that long mess of posts I made.

Quote: Originally Posted by zaskar View Post
As soon as I saw he had recommendations for the new ships I called ********. No one had had any time in them but devs, at least enough to make solid choices on systems and gameplay.
I did mention that it's theoretical, you can call it whatever you like. I'd challenge you to add something useful to the thread, but I can't force you to.

I guess I'll make those changes/additions, now. Keep the feedback and commentary coming!
Anastasie / Phytia The Bastion
Respected and Despised & Insert Guild Name Here
Check out my Galactic Starfighter Compendium and contribute!

Verain's Avatar


Verain
03.15.2014 , 01:23 PM | #29
I think it is far too early to call asterisks on Stasie!

Kalphitis's Avatar


Kalphitis
03.15.2014 , 01:23 PM | #30
Great Post! I have had some great fun playing against you and your friends/guild-mates -- very challenging and skilled you are. Some comments:

DIRECTIONAL SHIELDING: In theory, I agree with most people on these forums that directional shielding is the most beneficial and useful option there is. However, I don't use it for 2 main reasons:

1) I hate that you have one button to toggle between forward/backward/shared. Typically I want to switch in the heat of the moment, and there is usually little time for toggling nonsense. Imagine how annoying it would be if we only had one button to toggle between power options (weapons/shields/thrusters/shared). Admittedly, I've never tried them for very long, and maybe it's not so bad when you get used to it.

2) Directional shields are great if you're in a pre-made, but their usefulness drastically declines when you're in a random PUG. I spend most of my time PUGing (I don't like playing with premades tbh, 90% of the fights on Bastion are one-sided, and I usually prefer the challenging side vs the cakewalk). Anyways, I've found that with directional shield and multiple people shooting at you...you just die that much quicker vs having a recharge option.

MISSILES/LASERS: I appreciate your insight regarding what to use and when. This is one of the things I struggle with the most when I begin to engage somebody on my SF...."Should I open up with Heavies...or risk a missile lock right away?" I seem to have the best luck when I just start with heavy canons and shift to missiles if/when weapon power is low. That being said, I still regret my choice about 1/3 of the time and wish I had acted differently.

Quote: Originally Posted by TrinityLyre View Post
ACKNOWLEDGEMENTS

Thank you to the players and pilots from both factions on The Bastion for offering your opinions, challenges and discussions. .... I feel our community on The Bastion is extraordinary and for the most part, very friendly.
LIES! This one time I was in a same-faction gsf with Phytia/Drak on the other team, and they were both fortified around satellite B. They sent out a message saying that there was free punch and cookies at said satellite, and upon arrival, I found their claim to be extremely falsified. Not only was there a lack of snacks/refreshments, but I was openly met with hostile actions.

Long story short -- the community on Bastion is the most one-sided, manipulative, and malicious of any TOR server!!! Newcomers be warned.....

-Kalphitis/Kalphuggler