Please upgrade your browser for the best possible experience.

Chrome Firefox Internet Explorer
×

The BattleZone Winner's Bracket Match 4: Kit Fisto vs. Savage Opress

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > STAR WARS Discussion
The BattleZone Winner's Bracket Match 4: Kit Fisto vs. Savage Opress

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
03.03.2014 , 09:34 PM | #21
Quote: Originally Posted by ShadowMudkip View Post
Very Well, I shall support the Fisto!!! Buuuut it will have to wait till tomorrow.
Of course, of course.
Added Chapter 29 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
03.04.2014 , 03:02 AM | #22
Quote: Originally Posted by tunewalker View Post
I would argue that Opress knew more of Sidious's abilities then Fisto did. He knew that Sidious was going to be fast and dangerous thanks to his brother, and as I have stated in the past it may not have been about toying with Savage it was likely about waiting to allow Maul to see his brothers death. He wants to break Maul so if Maul was unconsioce when he kills Savage it doesnt send as strong a message as if he lets Maul see him kill Savage.

just 2 cents.
That's a good point actually, it also looks as if Sidious was remaining primarily on the defensive. Then as soon as Maul wakes up he stuns him with a kick them impales him in the chest.

Anyway, I never regarded it to be a primary argument, just thought it was worth mentioning.

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
03.04.2014 , 03:08 AM | #23
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
*For the record, Savage could not overwhelm Plo Koon. He only won through circumstance. A victory, true, but not in a way that is applicable to this situation. Non-negotiable.
My point was never that Savage could overwhelm Plo Koon, but that no one in so far has ever been able to resist him. Plo Koon is not an exception here because the duel was unfinished, and little evidence suggests that Koon could have driven Savage back through strength and resisted Savage's own. So ultimately the above would be an assumption.

Essentially, I don't think it counts.

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
03.04.2014 , 09:29 AM | #24
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
Essentially, I don't think it counts.
Quite right. It was pretty much a stalemate, but it was never a proper duel.
Added Chapter 29 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

ShadowMudkip's Avatar


ShadowMudkip
03.04.2014 , 06:21 PM | #25
Ok here goes. Kit Fisto, like Aubere mentioned, was a master of Shii Cho. Fisto preferred agility and evasion over head on attacks. Savage has great power and is pretty bulky, but he is extremely slow and sloppy. If Savage can not land a blow on Fisto then Savage will never win. Additionally, because Savage is slow, he will be unable to properly block the agile Fisto.

While Savage has fought many Jedi, it is unlikely that he has encountered an individual with such a radical fighting style. If Savage does not find ways to defend against and map out his opponents fighting style early in the fight, Fisto's speed may be Savage's undoing.

Aubere you going to help me out? Not sure I can go at it alone.
JediCovenant
The Veir Legacy
Mairick-Assassin Mylius-Sorcerer
Kaidin-Mercenary

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
03.04.2014 , 06:53 PM | #26
Quote: Originally Posted by ShadowMudkip View Post
Aubere you going to help me out? Not sure I can go at it alone.
I like to stay neutral for these, but I will counter points as I see fit.

Starting with yours!

Tomorrow...
Added Chapter 29 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

ShadowMudkip's Avatar


ShadowMudkip
03.04.2014 , 09:43 PM | #27
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
I like to stay neutral for these, but I will counter points as I see fit.

Starting with yours!

Tomorrow...
I'm a sad Jawa.
JediCovenant
The Veir Legacy
Mairick-Assassin Mylius-Sorcerer
Kaidin-Mercenary

fellblade's Avatar


fellblade
03.05.2014 , 07:35 AM | #28
No Kit Fisto love from me I am afraid...

I admit to not being unbiased as (most of you probably already know) Kit Fisto is one of my Least Favourite Jedi and I personally find him to be somewhat Overrated due to his showings against Grievous (a Foe who they mistakenly gave a specific weakness to Fisto's Style)
but Overall he hasn't really Impressed me that much.

I think that Savage as a whole Package could beat Fisto - Maybe Fisto is the Master of Shii Cho but ultimately it is a basic style (and If Ventress was able to analyse it after seeing him fight once it reveals the limited potential of this path - it is pretty much the opposite of Exar Kun's mastery of Niman) I don't see Fisto as a sophisticated saber Technician - it seems that in actuality a lot of his Effectiveness comes from his speed and rapidity of his attacks.
I'll give Fisto a Speed Advantage (but not to the degree where I think he can run circles around Savage or too quick for Savage to be able defend at all against - If Savage can hit Ventress then I think he can hit Fisto) - I will give Savage a Strength and Resilience/Recovery advantage as well as his Telekinetic bursts appearing to be more powerful - (Savage's Telekinetics visibly hit Harder and Push Farther and seem to have more of a disorienting effect on his opponents).

Fisto it seems to me, needs to be on the offensive to be most effective so I think he will go for Savage head on I don't think he can afford to just defend - I personally see Plo Koon as a better Duelist than Fisto so If Savage is a viable challenge for Plo Koon then I think he can Give Fisto all kinds of problems. I don't think Fisto has any specific stylistic advantage over Savage either but he does have experience over him (but pretty much anyone that Savage has fought has experience over him)
I see Savage also having an advantage being able to mixing in hand to hand effectively - Savage was able to disarm Ventress of her lightsaber with just the effects of a punch to the body - I think any hand to hand blows that Fisto uses will pretty much be negated by Savage's toughness

Similarly to when he beat Adi Gallia, I see Savage being able to force some kind of significant Opening against Fisto and Finishing him off.
Quote: Originally Posted by Barringer View Post
Tulak Hord is only an unknown because he killed anyone that has ever seen him fight.

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
03.05.2014 , 12:55 PM | #29
Quote: Originally Posted by ShadowMudkip View Post
Ok here goes. Kit Fisto, like Aubere mentioned, was a master of Shii Cho. Fisto preferred agility and evasion over head on attacks. Savage has great power and is pretty bulky, but he is extremely slow and sloppy. If Savage can not land a blow on Fisto then Savage will never win. Additionally, because Savage is slow, he will be unable to properly block the agile Fisto.

While Savage has fought many Jedi, it is unlikely that he has encountered an individual with such a radical fighting style. If Savage does not find ways to defend against and map out his opponents fighting style early in the fight, Fisto's speed may be Savage's undoing.

Aubere you going to help me out? Not sure I can go at it alone.
You exaggerate, Savage is not 'slow'. His attacks are certainly more slow and laborious than others, but this is simply a facet of the strong style, many other wielders of this form are able to move with sufficient agility. The only individual who has been able to properly evade Savage's attacks in the manner you describe is Count Dooku - who was able to keep up with Yoda himself. Which in turn indicates he could stand against Sidious, something Fisto could not do.

Simply put, Fisto is not as fast as Dooku. Perhaps more acrobatic in his style, but he is not capable of moving faster. And guess what? Despite that Savage actually succeeded in landing a blow, and it sent him flying.

Savage will eventually land a significant blow, and when he does it will hit very hard.

You'll also find its very difficult to attack and evade simalteuosly, if all Fisto does it dodge dodge dodge he'll never land a hit, he'll have to engage Savage at some point. Which brings us on to attack, not only can Savage overwhelm Fisto in a blade lock (he was even able to push Sidious back) but he is more than capable of blocking. Not only does he have a double bladed lightsaber but he has excellent reflexes. For example here*, and as Fellblade mentioned, here.

*Also note the speed of his swift counterattack, this clearly agile Jedi Master is caught completely of guard by his rapid 'taps' which in turn are characteristic of the double-bladed lightsaber. He can use this against Fisto.

We should also take into account Savage's endurance, any minor blows Fisto manages to land will be swiftly recuperated and even when grievously injured Savage will fight on. Fisto on the other hand, will not.

And finally, Fisto's style is pretty damn simple. Its powerful yes, but its not complex. Its comprised of basic attacks and basic blocks, nothing Savage hasn't encountered before, nor does he have any stylistic advantages.

Altogether I originally thought Savage would lose, but on closer examination he has all the advantages. Fisto may be fast and able to evade many of Savage's attacks, but Savage arguably has the better reflexes and with a saberstaff is more than capable of blocking each and every of Fisto's return strikes. The only reason his attacks are sometimes slow is because he has to maneuver his large saberstaff and put strength behind the blows. Savage will hold out against Fisto, he'll return fire, Fisto will slowly be weathered down or even knocked down and will inevitably be killed.

Its highly unlikely Fisto will be able to outmaneuver and wound Savage, his style isn't even geared towards that - but its the only way he can win, as I've explained brute force won't work, and Savage won't leave limbs exposed - he just isn't fast enough. Its that simple, and that eliminates Fisto's only avenue of victory. Force and Physical attacks won't work.

EDIT: In regards to simplicity, Fisto's defensive manoeuvres are basic as well. Just standard blocks, he doesn't try to redirect the impact of the attack like the more refined and complex Soresu and Makashi forms. Just blocks.

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
03.05.2014 , 01:00 PM | #30
Quote: Originally Posted by fellblade View Post
I admit to not being unbiased as (most of you probably already know) Kit Fisto is one of my Least Favourite Jedi and I personally find him to be somewhat Overrated due to his showings against Grievous (a Foe who they mistakenly gave a specific weakness to Fisto's Style) but Overall he hasn't really Impressed me that much.
If you are referring to the whole multiple weapons thing, yeah I'm not sure about that either. However Grievous in many ways would have replicated being attacked from multiple angles. Anyway, I think the main reason was the simplicity of Fisto's style. It allowed him to place less concentration on himself and more on Grievous, allowing him to more easily make sense of the unorthodoxy of his style and exploit weaknesses in it.

But anyway, great points.