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Abuse and harassment in pvp community

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
Abuse and harassment in pvp community

Seireeni's Avatar


Seireeni
11.14.2013 , 03:31 PM | #11
Quote: Originally Posted by Joesixxpack View Post
I wouldn't consider it any indictment of this particular game's community though. Rather, it would be one for humankind.
Probably true, though I have heard that some gaming communities are considered to be nicer, or at least less negatively charged, than others. I don't have much experience on MMOs, so it's not really my place to say if there truly are differences, or if it's just a rumor.
There is a face beneath this mask but it's not me.
Red Eclipse - 22 characters - The Firslay Legacy

ZooMzy's Avatar


ZooMzy
11.14.2013 , 03:40 PM | #12
Quote: Originally Posted by Cryowolf View Post
This behavior is not limited to pvp, pve, swtor or even videogames. Online anonymity lets people unleash their mean sides with few, if any, repercussions. Grow a thicker skin and ignore the BS. Or just don't even think of the other players as people, just NPCs with varying AI personalities.
Basically this.

If you want to continue the argument, fine. But let me go ahead and post my last response in the other thread here:

Quote: Originally Posted by ZooMzy View Post
Indeed, it is very unfortunate.

But it's not unjustified, just because people can easily see the negative backlash dedicated players dish out in response to the unseen injustice selfish casuals and bads do onto them.

Just remember though that dedicated are in response to the selfish casuals and bads. You want to fix the problem, you look at the cause, not the effect.

Which, like I have been in here doing, is my big picture. Everyone's ignorant morality points to fixing the effect, and you aren't going to fix the problem by attacking the people voicing complaints to something else. For the people ranting about nothing, so be it.

But if this truly was a system where people only complain about aspects that aren't that bad, then there wouldn't be such a strong presence of complainers. So of course I advocate complaining, as the only way you're going to show people the problem is by making it known.
To staple it to your point, the argument of abuse and harassment is one, and the aspect of mental conditioning is another. PvP, by its very foundation, is a competitively based game mode where no matter how casual you make it, there will always be a major presence of competition. Meaning that if you want people to be more respectful to each other, you make sure everyone is on even ground and knows the type of game that is being played.

So while I see harassment and clear attacks on others that do no good a problem, I have no qualms with other players being smacked in the face with a little harsh reality. Sorry if you don't like that, but I'd rather see the player quality improve than gain respect from a bunch of people I will never see or meet in person.

Seireeni's Avatar


Seireeni
11.14.2013 , 04:04 PM | #13
Quote: Originally Posted by ZooMzy View Post
To staple it to your point, the argument of abuse and harassment is one, and the aspect of mental conditioning is another. PvP, by its very foundation, is a competitively based game mode where no matter how casual you make it, there will always be a major presence of competition. Meaning that if you want people to be more respectful to each other, you make sure everyone is on even ground and knows the type of game that is being played.

So while I see harassment and clear attacks on others that do no good a problem, I have no qualms with other players being smacked in the face with a little harsh reality. Sorry if you don't like that, but I'd rather see the player quality improve than gain respect from a bunch of people I will never see or meet in person.
I understand your point. To be honest, the biggest problem I have with your decribed behaviour is not the fact that you sometimes rage at "bads", but the fact that you have admitted that your "secondary goal" - meaning your own enjoyment from raging to another person - is at least as important as your "primary goal". I haven't noticed this to be the "harsh reality" on Red Eclipse at least. People sometimes treat each other in a disrespectful way, but it seems to be because of "the heat of the moment" - and even those aren't that common. But I don't know, maybe that's common in your server?
There is a face beneath this mask but it's not me.
Red Eclipse - 22 characters - The Firslay Legacy

Smuglebunny's Avatar


Smuglebunny
11.14.2013 , 06:58 PM | #14
lol no one has ever said anything negative to me in PVP ever. Weird.

And if they did /ignore

this is the internet and thats the way it is.

the one talking the most smack is usually the worst player.

Banderal's Avatar


Banderal
11.14.2013 , 08:17 PM | #15
Well take this as worth what you paid for it... but I've found recently, for me anyway, that I have this magic ability to reduce the ranting in warzones.

Just type some words at the beginning to set a friendlier tone. If things start going bad, make a positive comment before the ranter gets her rant on. If you do something stupid, type "crap, I did [something stupid], so sry". People are generally forgiving of mistake if they know you know. That sounds all rainbows and kittens I know, like one of those "be the change you want" kind of messages ... but it sure seems to work. Been in a fair number of games lately where I tried to adopt that approach. I don't remember a single harsh comment back about it. I do remember a few random comments like, "It's great doing WZs with you, you are always so up beat."

So, yeah, you want a friendlier PvP community? Start being friendlier. Which is not the same thing as just passively "not ranting".

Now I'm going to go fume because my team is playing deathmatch instead of huttball...
Flintstones, Jetsons - Harbringer

Sangrar's Avatar


Sangrar
11.14.2013 , 08:24 PM | #16
Quote: Originally Posted by Cryowolf View Post
This behavior is not limited to pvp, pve, swtor or even videogames. Online anonymity lets people unleash their mean sides with few, if any, repercussions. Grow a thicker skin and ignore the BS. Or just don't even think of the other players as people, just NPCs with varying AI personalities.
seriously, as it is I am only a 16 year old player yet I am treated like garbage in this game sometimes, some stuff I will admit is my fault (ranked, got pulled and pounced on, stunned and dpsed in less than 4 seconds, screwed it up for my team, am ashamed about it) , other times its nonsense (ever have a group for athiss kick you because at low levels they expected you to be best tank ever and then later in fleet chat bomb you saying that even after they kicked you and got a replacement that you screwed it up so much they could not kill the boss! How is it my fault that even when I am not there they can't kill it!). Anyway though, I am treated like a criminal in this game sometimes ( I do report these morons, one thing to criticize constructively, another thing to just use **** again and again while talking about me and later trashing me to the fleet

Anyway point is don't let it get to you, I just want to enjoy the game and have fun and some people don't like the fact this is just a game, as it is they would not have the guts to insult me to my face if they knew I was just a kid while they are adults most of them, and just hang with your friend and people who: A-know what manners are and B-know each player is a [B]person[B]. I have been yelled at a lot, by people I know are likely more than twice my age, yet I still have fun and treat people with respect. And remember, all of you who suffer that indignity, that out of all those people who shout and yell, most of them will not dare say it to your face. To the people who just mindlessly harass people, remember there is a person on the other end.
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BarronWasteland's Avatar


BarronWasteland
11.15.2013 , 12:14 AM | #17
Funny you post this. Just last night I was on my Merc doing dailies on Oricon to support my PVP habit and there were 4 Pubs ganking people. I was by myself and they kept trying to gank me, except it took them about 3-4 min to kill me each time. They were saying things like "This is a PVP server noob" and nonsense. I did not reply. I got one of my guild mates and picked up two other Imps. We found them and had a 4 v 4 fight. They lasted about 20 seconds. I didnt say anything but they cloned and did not return.

Just let your fighting do the talking.
Barron Wasteland
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AlrikFassbauer's Avatar


AlrikFassbauer
11.15.2013 , 06:58 AM | #18
Quote: Originally Posted by Seireeni View Post
I thought all raging pvp people did was the "better" pvpers raging at the people who are worse at it, but it seems that everyone is raging at each other instead.
In the German-language PvP forums this is called "Forums PvP".

And to me it is a bit like Hooligans calling each other to meet and bash each other - on a lonely parking ground, somewhere in the wilderness, where they arrrive - usually 2 factions - having clubs and what not with them.
Sometimes they do it before or after sports matches, too.
"Just say no." If you feel like you are only there for generating Comms for someone else, then just stay away from PvP. Don't let yourself get farmed !

ZooMzy's Avatar


ZooMzy
11.15.2013 , 07:38 AM | #19
Quote: Originally Posted by Seireeni View Post
I understand your point. To be honest, the biggest problem I have with your decribed behaviour is not the fact that you sometimes rage at "bads", but the fact that you have admitted that your "secondary goal" - meaning your own enjoyment from raging to another person - is at least as important as your "primary goal". I haven't noticed this to be the "harsh reality" on Red Eclipse at least. People sometimes treat each other in a disrespectful way, but it seems to be because of "the heat of the moment" - and even those aren't that common. But I don't know, maybe that's common in your server?
Indeed it is, as many of the player base we have on our server doesn't take kindly to criticism. As testimony from another poster from my server stated, no one likes to be proven they are doing something wrong no matter what nice way you put it.

So yeah, my ranting is a form of venting. I don't enjoy harping on someone for the fact of harping on them, it releases the frustration I gain from the constant abuse from egotistical casuals that think they know everything about PvP, yet they don't understand how a simple attack can stop a capper, or how you won't burn a tank down to zero with a pocket healer in the back loling while they keep said tank alive. Then when they fail, they shrug it off and blame it on how the other player is just simply better, while the veterans understand the problem isn't that the casual was weaker, but just stupid in comparison to the better player.

Enjoyment can be had then, as I release all the pent up anger on the people who deserve it, and also give them to tools to learn from their failings. This misguided good will has ultimately taught the negative aspects to the player base, where everyone can just blame their failings onto being worse than others or not taking responsibility for being ignorant and stupid. Rather than allow it, I seek to correct that fail mentality, gaining fun and enjoyment from not only correcting ignorance, but also releasing the pent up rage that it builds up.

EDIT: Also wanted to add this, as I feel it relates to your original topic

Quote: Originally Posted by ZooMzy View Post
No, the ones who win and play the game are the strong, not the aggressive. And anyone can be strong, because all it takes is to suffer the abuse.

Think about it like weight lifting. Lifting weights and working out makes you strong, able to be more competitive. And do you know how weight lifting scientifically works?

You torture your muscles, where you make tiny little tears in the fibers to wear them out and bring them close to the breaking point. Then when they recover, the muscles come back stronger and bigger, in order to make sure you can handle the torturous activity a little better than before. The more weight you can then begin to lift, the stronger and stronger you become. So does that mean weight lifting should be outlawed or frowned upon? Because you can define it as torture, yet you can't disprove that's the method in making yourself "stronger"?

The problem isn't that people aren't exactly "lifting". The problem is that people don't seem to understand that if you want to be decent, you actually have to "workout". You don't get stronger by assuming you're going to be good without any effort, and that if you hypothetically just take a five pound weight and curl it 2 times, you aren't going to be doing anything that helps you. The more pain you can endure, the better you become. You rise in the face of the adversity, and you get crushed if you don't.

That's how competition works, and it's time people understand that if you want to be a contributor. It's not harassment, it's not unnecessary abuse, it's the truth people need to understand about PvP when they queue up for it.

Seireeni's Avatar


Seireeni
11.15.2013 , 01:04 PM | #20
Quote: Originally Posted by Banderal View Post
Just type some words at the beginning to set a friendlier tone. If things start going bad, make a positive comment before the ranter gets her rant on. If you do something stupid, type "crap, I did [something stupid], so sry". People are generally forgiving of mistake if they know you know. That sounds all rainbows and kittens I know, like one of those "be the change you want" kind of messages ... but it sure seems to work. Been in a fair number of games lately where I tried to adopt that approach. I don't remember a single harsh comment back about it. I do remember a few random comments like, "It's great doing WZs with you, you are always so up beat."

So, yeah, you want a friendlier PvP community? Start being friendlier. Which is not the same thing as just passively "not ranting".
I want to say, not only I think this is an useful and pratical advise, but now that I think about it, I've done this apologize-if-you-make-a-mistake -thing too, pretty much as long as I have been at the skill level where I know what those mistakes are. And it does seem to work. I can remember the last times I've made a mistake in a warzone (I'm really good at hitting the wrong button while running with the huttball. Was supposed to activate a defensive ability, accidentally hit combat stealth or force camourflage), but I can't remember the last time someone would have raged at me because of that mistake.

I've assumed that's because the people on Red Eclipse seem to be usually nice, but maybe this behaviour is part of it. Any of the (frustrated) dedicated want to comment? If the person making the mistake apologized for it, would it make you feel better?


Quote: Originally Posted by AlrikFassbauer View Post
In the German-language PvP forums this is called "Forums PvP".

And to me it is a bit like Hooligans calling each other to meet and bash each other - on a lonely parking ground, somewhere in the wilderness, where they arrrive - usually 2 factions - having clubs and what not with them.
Sometimes they do it before or after sports matches, too.
I can certainly see why you would think of the pvp forums like that. There is a lot of anger here, mostly because of people being frustrated. Not to mention, that from my experience, people who are passionate and competitive about something (no matter if it was pvp, sports or anything else like that) get more easily frustrated when something isn't working. Those same people also want to know more about the thing they are passionate about, while people who aren't that passionate not necessarily want to go to internet to learn more about pvp. Hence, there are more of these competitive and passionate players in the forums than in the actual game, and this is probably a great place to them to complain about the "bads" and get some support and sympathy from other people who are also frustrated because of these "bads".

Anyway, I just want to add that even though the pvp players may seem a big bunch of jerks fighting with each other like they had nothing better to do, many of them (or us, if you accept a casual like me to the "pvp players"-group ^^) are actually nice and capable of rational conversation when they feel like it. ^^

Quote: Originally Posted by ZooMzy View Post
Indeed it is, as many of the player base we have on our server doesn't take kindly to criticism. As testimony from another poster from my server stated, no one likes to be proven they are doing something wrong no matter what nice way you put it.

So yeah, my ranting is a form of venting. I don't enjoy harping on someone for the fact of harping on them, it releases the frustration I gain from the constant abuse from egotistical casuals that think they know everything about PvP, yet they don't understand how a simple attack can stop a capper, or how you won't burn a tank down to zero with a pocket healer in the back loling while they keep said tank alive. Then when they fail, they shrug it off and blame it on how the other player is just simply better, while the veterans understand the problem isn't that the casual was weaker, but just stupid in comparison to the better player.

Enjoyment can be had then, as I release all the pent up anger on the people who deserve it, and also give them to tools to learn from their failings. This misguided good will has ultimately taught the negative aspects to the player base, where everyone can just blame their failings onto being worse than others or not taking responsibility for being ignorant and stupid. Rather than allow it, I seek to correct that fail mentality, gaining fun and enjoyment from not only correcting ignorance, but also releasing the pent up rage that it builds up.
I actually also talked to a player who plays at your server (Beregen Colony, right?), and I think I understand your "ranting" a little better. What I heard is that A. this kind of "ranting" is actually very common in your server (so you could say that if one can't handle that, he/she can't handle the pvp in your server), B. there are very few people in your server who pvp (didn't you also mention this earlier in the conversation?) and C. there aren't many "medicores" in your server, just the dedicated and the "bads".

I think some of the differences we have in our views are due to the points A and C. In Red Eclipse, the amount of "ranting" is very small (so saying that if you can't handle ranting, you can't handle pvp, is a little funny, because in here, you could handle probably at least 90% of the matches even if you didn't like seeing people rage) and the amount of "medicore" players is (imo) pretty big. I'd like to think that the amount of raging you seem to describe you are doing (you haven't actually mentioned if you do this in every other match or every hundredth match, but I've gotten the feeling it's pretty common?) wouldn't be tolerated in Red Eclipse. I can remember many times when raging was actually answered with many snappy comments ("WHEN WILL YOU NOOBS LEARN TO PASS THE BALL?!!" "I don't know, next tuesday?" "Nah, I can't do it on tuesday, friday is better"). But the enviroment in your server is really different.

I'd like to point out, though, that the points B and C can be seen as a result to all the ranting happening in pvp. I'm sure things like dedicated players getting frustrated because of the large amount of "bads" and then transferring to another server also explain the lack of people doing pvp, but the raging is probably driving a lot of people away. The "medicore" people seem to be mostly pve players who also like to do some pvp and people who just do a little bit of everything without committing themselves fully to anything. Both of these groups may decide not to queue at all, if the enviroment in pvp is really "go tough or go home".

"Bads", excluding the "I'm bad but I'm aiming to dedicated"-people, may decide to not queue at all, way before they even reach the "medicore" skill level. Especially if they are blamed for something they didn't do, but rather what other "bads" did (I'm sure not every and each one of them "just blame their failings onto being worse than others or not taking responsibility for being ignorant and stupid", even if some do).

+ Just a small addition, I think the idea of "he was better than me" doesn't always mean not taking responsibility. It can just be good sportsmanship, being a "good loser". However, this "he was better than me" thinking should lead to the question "why was he better than me?". And during this thinking, a person hopefully realizes "Hmm, he had a healer, I didn't/he was beating at the person healing me, while I was beating him instead. Maybe I should try to kill the healer next time, since that would even the odds/worked out for him". Of course, if someone just decides that everyone's better than him and doesn't think of the part "why", then it's avoiding responsibility.

Anyway, any chance you could answer the question I asked earlier in this post? If the person making a mistake apologized for that mistake, would it affect your frustration/ranting?
There is a face beneath this mask but it's not me.
Red Eclipse - 22 characters - The Firslay Legacy