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So...Draxus


KeyboardNinja's Avatar


KeyboardNinja
10.02.2013 , 11:49 AM | #11
It's over-tuned for SM relative to the rest of the bosses. Even Brontes isn't anywhere near as difficult. I'm all for hard bosses (more on this in a second), but this boss needs to be nerfed slightly in SM. Not only is the average pug going to stall out here, but even some guild groups are going to fall. It's just not in line with the rest of the instance (which is a one-shot fest on SM).

In HM, this boss is definitely one of the harder ones, but I don't think it's over-tuned per-se. Rather, I feel that the Rancor is under tuned, since we easily two-shot it despite not having any real idea of what we were doing (Dulfy's guide is highly inaccurate on nearly all of the HM bosses, probably as a result of post-PTS changes). Draxus, on the other hand, took some actual progression (8 or 9 wipes, I think). It was a group composed of primarily random parts from normal guild groups (i.e. wasn't our progression team), but still. I think that's about what all of the HM bosses should be like.

I would leave Draxus the way he is in HM (where he is a very satisfying boss for all roles), nerf the damage levels in SM, and buff the heck out of the Rancor in HM.
Computer Programmer. Theory Crafter. Dilettante on The Ebon Hawk.
Tam (shadow tank) Tov-ren (commando healer) Aveo (retired sentinel) Nimri (ruffian scoundrel)
Averith (marksman sniper) Alish (lightning sorcerer) Aresham (vengeance jugg) Effek (pyro pt)

December 13, 2011 to January 30, 2017

FridgeLM's Avatar


FridgeLM
10.02.2013 , 11:59 AM | #12
Quote: Originally Posted by KeyboardNinja View Post
(Dulfy's guide is highly inaccurate on nearly all of the HM bosses, probably as a result of post-PTS changes)
Except there were very few changes, so I don't know why the guides would be particularly inaccurate unless whoever wrote it didn't do them.
<Death and Taxes>

KeyboardNinja's Avatar


KeyboardNinja
10.02.2013 , 12:06 PM | #13
Quote: Originally Posted by FridgeLM View Post
Except there were very few changes, so I don't know why the guides would be particularly inaccurate unless whoever wrote it didn't do them.
Off the top of my head (we didn't have time to finish HM DF yesterday, and we haven't been in DP yet):
  • Lightning adds in Draxus do significant damage and can't be deprioritized as Dulfy suggests
  • Nothing in Draxus is interruptable (MAJOR CHANGE FROM PTS)
  • Guardian Ravage needs to be stunbroken to enable the taunt back (since not interruptable)
  • Draxus is immune to damage in his final phase until some of the adds die or the buff times out
  • Draxus agro dumps twice every time he's out and does a VERY high damage attack immediately after dumping (didn't happen on the PTS)
  • Pipe Smash makes it nearly impossible to move. Rancor needs to be pre-positioned before he starts the attack
  • Pipe Smash is not a frontal cone, despite what the animation seems to convey
  • You cannot stunbreak the lift in HM (you get restunned immediately)
  • The main tank on the Corrupter droid gets a stacking damage buff to force a swap whenever the adds drop
  • The explosion debuff doesn't apply to the tanks

Those are just the things I have off the top of my head. Many of those mechanics are not apparent in Dulfy's PTS kill video, which makes me suspect that they are simply new. Some of them (most notably, Draxus's agro dump) are significant enough that there would be absolutely no excuse to not have them in a guide, since they are wipe-inducing if not handled correctly.
Computer Programmer. Theory Crafter. Dilettante on The Ebon Hawk.
Tam (shadow tank) Tov-ren (commando healer) Aveo (retired sentinel) Nimri (ruffian scoundrel)
Averith (marksman sniper) Alish (lightning sorcerer) Aresham (vengeance jugg) Effek (pyro pt)

December 13, 2011 to January 30, 2017

FridgeLM's Avatar


FridgeLM
10.02.2013 , 12:22 PM | #14
Quote: Originally Posted by KeyboardNinja View Post
Off the top of my head (we didn't have time to finish HM DF yesterday, and we haven't been in DP yet):
  • Lightning adds in Draxus do significant damage and can't be deprioritized as Dulfy suggests
  • Nothing in Draxus is interruptable (MAJOR CHANGE FROM PTS)
  • Guardian Ravage needs to be stunbroken to enable the taunt back (since not interruptable)
  • Draxus is immune to damage in his final phase until some of the adds die or the buff times out
  • Draxus agro dumps twice every time he's out and does a VERY high damage attack immediately after dumping (didn't happen on the PTS)
  • Pipe Smash makes it nearly impossible to move. Rancor needs to be pre-positioned before he starts the attack
  • Pipe Smash is not a frontal cone, despite what the animation seems to convey
  • You cannot stunbreak the lift in HM (you get restunned immediately)
  • The main tank on the Corrupter droid gets a stacking damage buff to force a swap whenever the adds drop
  • The explosion debuff doesn't apply to the tanks
.
Lightning adds already did plenty of damage on the PTS, we still didn't prioritize them since they're still the least threatening add.
You can still interrupt corruptors, so your second point is literally not true.
Any changes to guardians were not significant enough to warrant any mention by either of our tanks.
I'll grant him being immune to damage was a change but you're supposed to be mopping up adds at that point anyway, doesn't significantly change the fight.
Draxus always dropped aggro on the PTS, been that way for weeks.
Pipe smash literally does not make it impossible to move, another point that isn't true. We had no issue positioning the rancor after he grabbed his pipe.
If someone on dulfy thought that pipe smash was a frontal cone, they didn't fight the encounter.
If someone on dulfy claimed it was a good idea to cc break the magnet lift, they didn't fight the encounter (or they didn't make clear that you should ensure the magnet was no longer over you, making them a bad writer)
The only significant change to corruptor zero that caused any issue was the hall-filling laser was more threatening, and concussive mine. We never really figured our concussive mine, I wasn't able to read the debuff before it killed the person it was on. We suspect it grows more powerful if you try to cleanse it, so we just spread out and didn't cleanse.

The DP bosses were made easier, if anything.

Seriously, a well-written guide would have told you how to beat all these bosses. If the guides are so wildly inaccurate, someone's bad at writing them.
<Death and Taxes>

KeyboardNinja's Avatar


KeyboardNinja
10.02.2013 , 12:33 PM | #15
Quote: Originally Posted by FridgeLM View Post
Lightning adds already did plenty of damage on the PTS, we still didn't prioritize them since they're still the least threatening add.
It's really just a difference of whether or not you consciously leave them alive during a regen break.

Quote: Originally Posted by FridgeLM View Post
You can still interrupt corruptors, so your second point is literally not true.
Yes, my assertion was over-broad. The main change from the PTS is that the guardians and the Swipe adds (can't remember the name) are no longer interruptable, so the Swipe adds are simply a DPS race and the guardians require actual positioning (rather than interrupt chaining).

Quote: Originally Posted by FridgeLM View Post
I'll grant him being immune to damage was a change but you're supposed to be mopping up adds at that point anyway, doesn't significantly change the fight.
I actually rather like the "nuke the boss and ignore the adds" strategy and I wish they had left it intact. A nice change for NiM would be full damage immunity until both Guardians are dead (not the case now) and a tight enough enrage timer to force you to ignore the other adds. A soft-enrage in the final 20% would also work.

Quote: Originally Posted by FridgeLM View Post
Draxus always dropped aggro on the PTS, been that way for weeks.
Didn't see it in the video at all. I'm not sure why, but it simply didn't happen.

Quote: Originally Posted by FridgeLM View Post
Pipe smash literally does not make it impossible to move, another point that isn't true. We had no issue positioning the rancor after he grabbed his pipe.
You didn't tank it. You *can* position him, but it's very difficult to do so. A guardian/juggernaut would probably have the easiest time, since they could friendly leap to gain some ground, and vanguards/powertechs would probably be ok due to the physics immunity CD, but shadows/assassins are effectively movement debuffed into the ground during that phase. If I don't have him in position (or rather, if *I'm* not in position) when he starts Pipe Smash, it's going to take me a disturbingly long time to move him over.

Quote: Originally Posted by FridgeLM View Post
The only significant change to corruptor zero that caused any issue was the hall-filling laser was more threatening, and concussive mine. We never really figured our concussive mine, I wasn't able to read the debuff before it killed the person it was on. We suspect it grows more powerful if you try to cleanse it, so we just spread out and didn't cleanse.
The tanking debuff just wasn't in the guide. I didn't watch Dulfy's PTS kill video, so I don't know if it was there. The mine is handled by closing to melee range of the boss, fyi. Cleanses have no effect, to the best of my knowledge.

Quote: Originally Posted by FridgeLM View Post
Seriously, a well-written guide would have told you how to beat all these bosses. If the guides are so wildly inaccurate, someone's bad at writing them.
They were misleading enough that we weren't able to really rely too much on what we were reading. We effectively treated the guides as partial lists of changes and then treated it as a mostly-blind clear of the boss.
Computer Programmer. Theory Crafter. Dilettante on The Ebon Hawk.
Tam (shadow tank) Tov-ren (commando healer) Aveo (retired sentinel) Nimri (ruffian scoundrel)
Averith (marksman sniper) Alish (lightning sorcerer) Aresham (vengeance jugg) Effek (pyro pt)

December 13, 2011 to January 30, 2017

TrillOG-'s Avatar


TrillOG-
10.02.2013 , 12:52 PM | #16
Quote: Originally Posted by Ancaglon View Post
I agree entirely with the OP. The difficulty of this encounter, at least on 16-man story, is WAY out of line with the rest of the instance. It's now fair to expect everyone that joins a Group Finder Story mode operation to be in full 66s (because you get that just by completing the Oricon storyline) but such a group is just going to get annihilated here.
Which is exactly why they AREN'T in the group finder que. Think its too hard? Work harder, change things up, just handle it. It doesn't need a nerf, its everyones first week through the fights on live, you can't expect just to blow through everything like TFB/S&V at 55. Not to mention that going into SM after HM is a joke, half the mechanics just go away or can be ignored.

Iwipe's Avatar


Iwipe
10.02.2013 , 12:58 PM | #17
Quote:
They were misleading enough that we weren't able to really rely too much on what we were reading. We effectively treated the guides as partial lists of changes and then treated it as a mostly-blind clear of the boss.
The majority of the inaccuracies you described are changes from the PTS to live. We raid late than some other guilds and I didn't get a chance to correct some of them until the raid is over so alot of you read PTS version of the fight.

Also, I never mentioned Pipe Smash being a conal attack, the only conal attack is the Roar, please don't confuse these two.

Also, I wouldn't call it misleading. The guide is there to give you an idea of the basic mechanics and then you fine tune it to your guild/raid group composition. Despite the small changes Bioware placed from PTS to live, it served its purpose.

alxmdsn's Avatar


alxmdsn
10.02.2013 , 01:05 PM | #18
Quote: Originally Posted by Iwipe View Post
The majority of the inaccuracies you described are changes from the PTS to live. We raid late than some other guilds and I didn't get a chance to correct some of them until the raid is over so alot of you read PTS version of the fight.

Also, I never mentioned Pipe Smash being a conal attack, the only conal attack is the Roar, please don't confuse these two.

Also, I wouldn't call it misleading. The guide is there to give you an idea of the basic mechanics and then you fine tune it to your guild/raid group composition. Despite the small changes Bioware placed from PTS to live, it served its purpose.
You get him Dulfy. Your guide led us to a full clear and we appreciate all your hard work. Quick question, are you a native English speaker? Sometimes I find your writing hard to understand and I think thats what leads to some confusion among others.

Kurlann's Avatar


Kurlann
10.02.2013 , 01:10 PM | #19
Quote: Originally Posted by TrillOG- View Post
Which is exactly why they AREN'T in the group finder que. Think its too hard? Work harder, change things up, just handle it. It doesn't need a nerf, its everyones first week through the fights on live, you can't expect just to blow through everything like TFB/S&V at 55. Not to mention that going into SM after HM is a joke, half the mechanics just go away or can be ignored.
6K per 2 second tick on an uncleansable debuff is no "joke." The rest of the fight isn't really that hard; just takes a bit of coordination/add prioritizing. But this strange debuff that goes out during the guardian adds seems broken. Here's a link with logs:

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=6804403

Iwipe's Avatar


Iwipe
10.02.2013 , 01:11 PM | #20
Quote: Originally Posted by alxmdsn View Post
You get him Dulfy. Your guide led us to a full clear and we appreciate all your hard work. Quick question, are you a native English speaker? Sometimes I find your writing hard to understand and I think thats what leads to some confusion among others.
I am unfortunately not a native English speaker so yes some of my writings can be a bit hard to understand. There are probably alot of grammar/spelling errors you can pick out too. It also depends on how fast I am writing them as well, the faster I write them the more mistakes there tends to be.