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[Petition] - Pyro/Assault PT/VG - Keep Bursting Flame as is on Live

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
[Petition] - Pyro/Assault PT/VG - Keep Bursting Flame as is on Live

So-low's Avatar


So-low
09.20.2013 , 01:38 PM | #1
Would have posted this in PTS forums but they are closed now. I am posting this in the PVP section because I believe the QOL issue this causes is mostly PVP related. Also posting in Class forums.

I will be using PT terminology but as usual this all applies to VG mirror.

On the PTS they reworked the "Bursting Flame" talent so that Flame Burst would only give a 60% chance to apply the CGC DOT instead of the 100% chance it's had since release. In return they made it so Rocket Punch has a 100% chance to apply the DOT.

This is a very large QOL decrease, especially for PVPers. One of the reasons I/we rolled this class and spec was because it was difference from other melee and ranged classes - it had a 10m range for its "bread and butter" ability (flame burst dot). Being able to maintain a distance of 10m to use our main ability which also resets rail shot is/was a core function of the class. By implementing this change you are forcing this spec to be a more melee heavy (4m) spec to be able to put out reliable damage. This goes against the original design principles of the class which is not good.

IMHO this kills the spec. I played it on the PTS extensively and it ended up just feeling clunky and awkward with positioning and the required new rotation priority to maintain damage.

Don't get me wrong. I love the new defensive capabilities of the pyro spec and the lower cost of Incendiary Missile. I also like the buffs to tactics. But none of that changes the fact that the change to the Bursting Flame Skill is a QOL decrease.

Pyro and assault players sign here if you agree this skill needs to stay the same as on live.

Other things to note (but not part of the petition):
- I am not advocating for Pyro PTS to be faceroll easy. If the devs want to increase the skill cap on the class, great. Just not like this with QOL decreases.
- It would be really nice if Thermal Det damage was frontloaded with no dot. I realize that the DOT effect helps PVE-ers because it is elemental damage which ignores armor, so the Devs would need to change the damage type/amount or give it armor pen to keep everyone happy.
- Rail shot should either have it's armor pen increased to what it was before the nerf --OR--increase the CGC or IM damage by 25%. Both would be OP, but their nerf to both after 2.0 was too much.

ErikGW's Avatar


ErikGW
09.20.2013 , 01:56 PM | #2
I agree that forcing us to rocket punch is pretty lame.

Realistically though, I end up spamming a few flame bursts to get the rail shot proc so i don't know how much it would really change the way i play since i would often get that 60% hit and never notice a difference.

But i use a hybrid build because i don't think thermal detonator is worth the points.
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T-Assassin's Avatar


T-Assassin
09.20.2013 , 04:15 PM | #3
Quote: Originally Posted by ErikGW View Post
I agree that forcing us to rocket punch is pretty lame.

Realistically though, I end up spamming a few flame bursts to get the rail shot proc so i don't know how much it would really change the way i play since i would often get that 60% hit and never notice a difference.

But i use a hybrid build because i don't think thermal detonator is worth the points.
TD will be worth it after 2.4, IM will not. and, since you will be picking up the extra defenses high up in the tree, might as well pick up TD. Pyro/Assault spec, that is. And that is for PvP only!!! (PvE, it is still a wash with other specs and the almighty RNG)

the nerfs to FB and IM are pretty bad, to an already DPS starved AC.

I play my VG as a kiter. the only thing I am doing within 4m is interrupting, even with the changes to RP on PTS. I've parsed it hundreds of times and it usually comes out as a wash versus FB-RS-FB-Rail rotation. thanks RNG.

from live to 2.4 FB "spam" and IM is about a 150-200 DPS LOSS, on average. and with TD being roughly a 100 DPS gain, these so called "DPS Buffs" couldn't be further from the truth. (from my experience)

I agree So-low...TERRIBLE changes that only further nerf the PT/VG, offensively.

but, nothing we say, prove via parsing, etc. will change the minds of the combat "team" and their metrics.

so the ~100 DPS "buff" from full Pyro/Assault TD/AP (which is a wash due to the almost 100 DPS LOSS from IR/IM)is going to put us ~5% of snipers and marauders and other top performing AC's in PvP or OPs?

not a chance in hell.
"Ib'tuur jatne tuur ash'ad kyr'amur."
"Today is a good day for someone else to die." -

So-low's Avatar


So-low
09.20.2013 , 06:07 PM | #4
Quote: Originally Posted by ErikGW View Post
I agree that forcing us to rocket punch is pretty lame.

Realistically though, I end up spamming a few flame bursts to get the rail shot proc so i don't know how much it would really change the way i play since i would often get that 60% hit and never notice a difference.

But i use a hybrid build because i don't think thermal detonator is worth the points.
Keep in mind that when flame burst applies CGC, it also applies the first tick of CGC immediately. So for example a 3.5k flameburst + CGC insta-tick turns into a 4-5k hit. Therefore nerfing it to 60% chance also nerfs our on-demand burst and puts it up to RNG (yay RNG).

I feel like everyone is being fooled into thinking pyro is ok because of a few defensive buffs. Our damage is still crap compared to other classes. We are the madness sins of bounty hunters!

Quote: Originally Posted by T-Assassin View Post
TD will be worth it after 2.4, IM will not.
Even with the reduced cost of IM in 2.4 (16 instead of 25) you still don't think it will be worth it? Or are they nerfing the IM damage as well?

Skinnychalk's Avatar


Skinnychalk
09.20.2013 , 07:44 PM | #5
Quote: Originally Posted by So-low View Post
Even with the reduced cost of IM in 2.4 (16 instead of 25) you still don't think it will be worth it? Or are they nerfing the IM damage as well?
Yes its Damage is being nerfed as well.

Sadly though Bursting flame will not be kept as is but /Sign Pyro since launch.

Brunner_Venda's Avatar


Brunner_Venda
09.20.2013 , 08:35 PM | #6
Quote: Originally Posted by Skinnychalk View Post
Yes its Damage is being nerfed as well.

Sadly though Bursting flame will not be kept as is but /Sign Pyro since launch.
They did it to nerf the hybrid specs. The damage in the upper tiers of pyro is almost completely non existent, so most PVE players pulled better DPS and defense by picking up low tier tank and AP skills like hot iron and hyper fuel.

Between retractable blade and IM, pyros were pulling decent damage on raids. So the devs nerfed both skills. They made up for it in AP by boosting immolate by 1-2K. They did a tiny amount to TD to make up for IM. The result? AP barely parses more than the hybrid pyro used to, and full pyro still doesn't measure up to either.

Tonev's Avatar


Tonev
09.20.2013 , 08:41 PM | #7
I have been sending in tickets on this from the VG side because I also think this changes the dynamic of the VG class from what it is currently (To me a melee flaming dot from stock strike@100% does not make any sense.), For what it's worth I have already petitioned this by canceling my account and my son's with some of the changes being my reason why.

Until they get the bugs out on VGs and understand why people are complaining of this, I'll show them my disapproval of the changes by not paying for a sub or buying from their cartel market anymore.

Wanna petition, cancel your sub with this being as your reason why.
Marty the Sentinel/Marauder>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nuPd4L7_0uQ

Brunner_Venda's Avatar


Brunner_Venda
09.20.2013 , 08:50 PM | #8
I decided to adapt, and take the middle tree. AP and tactics builds are going to be viable, enough so that the whining will probably hit the forums in the first week.

Remember, pyro sucks for mercs too, we aren't alone in that. Most AC's only have one or two viable trees, we're no different in that regard. We get two.

T-Assassin's Avatar


T-Assassin
09.21.2013 , 09:30 AM | #9
Quote: Originally Posted by Brunner_Venda View Post
They did it to nerf the hybrid specs. The damage in the upper tiers of pyro is almost completely non existent, so most PVE players pulled better DPS and defense by picking up low tier tank and AP skills like hot iron and hyper fuel.

Between retractable blade and IM, pyros were pulling decent damage on raids. So the devs nerfed both skills. They made up for it in AP by boosting immolate by 1-2K. They did a tiny amount to TD to make up for IM. The result? AP barely parses more than the hybrid pyro used to, and full pyro still doesn't measure up to either.
Everything you said is true

parroting my other posts concerning this, I'm not BiS (I just got my 72 barrel 2 days ago ), but the damage nerf to IR/IM is roughly ~100 DPS. Expect more in better gear.

the "buff" to AP/TD is roughly ~100 DPS. Expect more in better gear.

so, it's basically a wash.

but, with the defensive changes, which are a decent improvement, you are almost force to go full Pyro spec if you plan to PvP as Pyro.

In PvE, 8-8-30 is still viable, as it is within 80-100 DPS compared to full Pyro (on average, ~50 DPS). RNG has much to do with this. and you can stay >10m and enjoy the show, instead of staring at the boss's sack, (just my personal preference), or run around kiting when you have a tank that guards the healer in pugs :P
"Ib'tuur jatne tuur ash'ad kyr'amur."
"Today is a good day for someone else to die." -

SOULCASTER's Avatar


SOULCASTER
09.21.2013 , 09:34 AM | #10
I agree with the OP. While this change was FANTASTIC for Assault/Pyro Commando/Mercenaries, this was a bad change to Powertech/Vanguards, as their 100% dot chance has now dropped to a 60% RNG application.

RNG is bad folks. They need to leave the stock-strike/rocket-punch dot application in the tool-tip talent box, but bring the flame burst/ion-pulse back up to 100% IMO.
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