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Here's what's wrong with PvP

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
Here's what's wrong with PvP

Raansu's Avatar

09.17.2013 , 09:33 AM | #11
Quote: Originally Posted by brewergamer View Post
I'd like to see cross-server pvp queues honestly.
I'm pretty sure everyone here would like to see it but according to BW they cant do it.

madtycoon's Avatar

09.17.2013 , 11:16 AM | #12
Quote: Originally Posted by snaplemouton View Post
Solution: RESOLVE is a BROKEN MECHANISM and NEEDS TO BE FIXED. Roots requires a Diminishing Return!!! No matter how people saw WoW CC mechanisms, they had the right ideas for CC management.
Diminishing Returns won't work in this game with CC. It would literally kill mez chains unless casted mez were made close to spammable (like poly). It would also make it really hard to penalize people for blowing their break on stupid things and dumb the game down even more. Roots are not a problem at all. Most classes have some sort of root break, sometimes on a shorter cooldown than the root spell itself. Root chains can be cleansed. The only class that should complain about roots are dps sorcs getting leap rooted. Fix the upfront damage that smash does and this isn't an issue.

Quote: Originally Posted by snaplemouton View Post
Solution: After using an interrupt, the target should become UNINTERRUPTABLE for 4 seconds even if the interrupt DIDN'T LAND ON A CAST. Punish thoses who miss their interrupt, interrupt a fake cast or interrupt a worthless ability.
This would kill interrupting and it is already incredibly weak right now. I would love to see interrupts actually lock casters out for 4 seconds on schools of spells to make fake casting and monitoring interrupts an actual thing (increasing caster skill cap), but unfortunately this is star wars and that would require a complete redesign, which will never happen.

Casting and interrupting in their system has a lot of problems. A lot of spells are too long. Rapid Scan is a perfect example. With soft capped alacrity and the talents how far can you get this down as a healing merc? 1.85 maybe? I mean that's a joke that a main heal in their rotation takes so long to cast. Add the ridiculous pushback and you can't get this thing off with anyone attacking you (only trigger happy mongos get faked on this heal). I mean its fine that deliverence is a long cast for a sage, because at least they have a spammable filler replacement, but rapid scan can't be replaced the majority of the time. There are a few spells that fall into this category. As stupid as scoundrel healers are right now, their underworld medicine should probably have a shorter cast time as well (if they were nerfed in other ways).

Pushback is also a problem. If you're talking adding DRs, this is where you should start, because pushback is horrible to the point that if you are casting with just one person on you who doesn't even interrupt, its going to be hard to get a spell off. I would maybe even say remove pushback altogether when talented, but again any huge change would require rebalancing a lot of stuff and would never happen.

The skill with interrupting in this game is knowing what to interrupt. Unfortunately there are few rotations where interrupting the right spell will lead to less output. I'll take the arsenal merc, interrupt his first tracer missle for example it will really hurt him, because then he can't rail shot or get an unload proc or won't have 25% damage on his heatseeker. Good design, right? Sadly most rotations aren't like this and can't be shut down really at all with interrupts and even the arsenal merc can just be lol instant tracer. When pushback is more of a factor in stopping output than the actual interrupt, you have a problem.

Quote: Originally Posted by snaplemouton View Post
Solution: Remove the damage counterpart of all hard stuns (Except for stasis/choke), remove the interrupt and damage from force leap, remove or reduce the damage of most slows and roots.
They should definately go in this direction. Zealous Leap is the first thing that comes to mind. Leap with a root break included, also has a baby root, built in slow, can be used on covered targets and crits for 5kish, but its cool it has a long cooldown right? Surely they couldn't let this ability have a 15 second cooldown that decreases when they hit stuff, considering they already have another leap with that cooldown, right? yeah...

Quote: Originally Posted by snaplemouton View Post
Solution: Make guard transfer 30% damage and add an active ability that increase that number to 50% for a certain amount of time with a CD on it. (6 seconds duration with 12 seconds CD?)
Would be amazing, but it would cripple tanks too much. The game's PvP is going to be balanced around 4v4 in the patches to come. Sadly tanks will probably be required for 4v4, because without one survivability is incredibly low and you would just have teams zerging each other down just like random warzones are right now.

That being said, I really wish they would have never added tanks to the WoW PvP model, because most everything wrong with SWTOR PvP is because of the tanking class. Healing doesn't heal as strong as it should, because of tanks. Classes (aside from marauders) can't have really nice defensive cooldowns because if they did and had guard they would be unkillable. We can't have 3v3, because no one would die. The majority of warzones are garbage, because there aren't tanks guard swapping running around. Maybe 1 out of 50 games you'll see a tank guard swapping in a warzone and sadly the PvP is designed around it.

I'm also worried that ranked 4v4 might flop due to the lack of tanks. Guardians and Jugs are probably going to be forced into the role.

Quote: Originally Posted by snaplemouton View Post
All of theses things is exactly why Scoundrels/Operatives healers are consider OP and not the other AC healers. Because they can heal with instants and over time making interrupt a non factor and they still heal while stunned while guard make them virtually invincible. Not because they heal too much or because they have too many escape. Scoundrels/Operatives are as easy to kill without guard if not easier then other healers. Fixing the interrupt problem would bring back sages/sorcs and commandos/mercs healers to the same level as scoundrels/operatives healers while the change to guard would bring them all to a level where they can be killed. As for every other classes, you would finally be punished for using your abilities without care.
Instant heals are needed, but stupid when a class like scoundrels can do the majority of their healing with instants. I hope they realize this and change scoundrels so they have to cast more. Their rotation/resource is a lot easier to manage than the other two healers. One more of their heals have to have a short cooldown and they should be forced to worry about resource. On the contrary, merc healers need tweaks, because their rotation and tree doesn't make any sense, which is ashame, because the resource management and rotation is probably the hardest with the least amount of reward.

snaplemouton's Avatar

09.17.2013 , 05:31 PM | #13
Quote: Originally Posted by unicornfive View Post
Entrench for snipers not only makes immune to interrupt, but also to all kind of cc.
Polarty shift for sorcs make them immune to interrupt too.
The shield you mentioned for BH healers
So the only healer left without it is operative? Are you implying that operative healer needs buff because they can be interrupted?
Entrench doesn't grant interrupt immunity. Sniper/Gunslinger are passively immune to any kind of interrupt while in cover. They don't need entrench. And I already said in another post that sniper/slinger should get their interrupt immunity removed.
I forgot Mental alacrity/Polarity shift but my point still stand. 2 minutes CD for a 10 seconds immunity is good. But the current interrupt system make anything during the 11/12 time the buff isn't active a living hell for both sage/sorc and commando/merc. I'd extend that to DPS commando/mercenaries (Sage/sorc DPS have enough different spells and instant to care less about interrupts)
Operative/scoundrel healers already doesn't cast. That would affect them in a very insignifiant way.
And if you had a brain you would understand that I am not asking to remove interrupts from the game. I'm asking to only allow 1 interrupt per 4 seconds. And that would be totally fair as Hard stuns, Mezs, knockbacks and pulls can all stop a cast.

Quote: Originally Posted by unicornfive View Post
Damage dealing ability??? The leap??? Are you on drugs?
Gap closer vs cover or electronet???
+10% dmg to vigilance??? Which talent???? Can you link maybe???
And you consider OP the fact that it builds up the main resource for warriors??? ***?? Maybe you should let warriors fight without rage and do only saber attack....Cause 3 rage is too much!!!! While enraged defence requires 14 rage?? (4 to activate + drains 1 rage per sec)

Your post is bad, misguiding and full of mistakes. It should be taken down immediately to avoid further confusion.
Yes Damage dealing. The leap does damage. And the damage is extremely good (too good) for an ability with 4 others utilities tied to it. If you don't know where the 10% damage come from, you shouldn't have posted in the first place since you don't even know some of the most basic knowledge any good PvPers should know. The 4 set bonus for knight/warrior is where the 10% come from.
And OP sniper/slinger cover isn't an excuse to why leap does 5 things pre talents/set bonus. Electronet? Really?
I never said to remove the rage builder on leap. I said damage and interrupt removal would bring it to a more reasonnable level.
Enrage defense ISN'T 14 rage. It's 4 rage to activate and 1 rage when hit with a 1 second CD. It's between 4 and 14 and is probably impossible to ever hit the 14 rage cost due to not receiving an attack at exactly every 1.00 second. Enraged defense will cost around 9-10 rage when attacked by someone rarely ever get to 12-13.

My post isn't full of mistakes. Everything I mentionned concerning spells/talents is true.
As for you, I can tell you are probably a smash monkey who don't have a single clue about it's own class and PvP in general.

Quote: Originally Posted by anwg View Post
The only players that throw around CC without care are the horrible ones (see the threads about nerfing healing)
Hence why they should be punished for doing so. As of now, they are barely punished for it since CCs can stack without DR, their CDs are retarded low for how only CC breaker can remove them (and barrier) and for how many CCs there is in the game, most CCs does additional effects on top of their hard stun/mez, making them less of a waste when used on white bars.

Quote: Originally Posted by anwg View Post
Most roots break on damage, they can also be cleansed.
No roots are broken on damage immediately after being applied, all roots last at least 2 seconds unless broken by a special ability. Cleanse doesn't cleanse all roots. Only 3 AC have cleanse and they don't remove all type of debuffs. Sages/sorcs cannot cleanse a slinger/sniper roots, mando/merc and scoundrel/op cannot cleanse a force leap root.
Roots can be stack and used without care as there is no DR to punish it's usage, a player can be rooted for an overly extended period of time to a point where you might as well just go AFK and get yourself a coffee while waiting for the roots spam to be over.

Quote: Originally Posted by anwg View Post
Using your stun for damage on a white barred opponent is a hilariously bad play. And the fact you are whining about that says a lot.
Thank for confirming that using a stun on a white barred opponent is a bad play. I already knew that thought.
Your comprehension skills are so terrible it almost makes stunning a white bar target looks good.
My post was about how bad plays arn't punished enough if you didn't notice.
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NathanielStarr's Avatar

09.17.2013 , 05:37 PM | #14
I hate when people refer to anything as spells in this game especially when referring to the actions of classes that are not force users.

NathanielStarr's Avatar

09.17.2013 , 05:40 PM | #15
Quote: Originally Posted by Raansu View Post
Snipers need cover immunity...They would be sitting ducks otherwise. If they are out of CD's and someone gets on them, they die...instantly...
like mercenaries

KamujinKravshera's Avatar

09.17.2013 , 06:18 PM | #16
Quote: Originally Posted by snaplemouton View Post
There is definitely something wrong with PvP.
And I can sum it up in one phrase: "Errors are too easily forgiven."
This game carries terrible players by the hand and leave the most common errors unpunished (Such as backpeddle force speed, letting your explosive probe get cleansed, taunting an healer, mezing a dotted target, etc.).

I agree with most of this. Well said.
I'm paper. Rock is fine. Nerf scissors!

Kamujin - Sage/Sorc Healer - Pot5

General_Aldo's Avatar

09.17.2013 , 06:33 PM | #17
I completely agree with no.1

I hate how bad players spam cc, and swtor doesn't have any diminishing returns for it.

In SWTOR, you can spam cc and not suffer ANY repercussions. Only the occasional full resolve that lasts 10 secs
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MidichIorian's Avatar

09.17.2013 , 07:03 PM | #18
I kind of agree but take into consideration what the fixes would do the majority of warzones. There is currently no matchmaking system, meaning that a bunch of, in lack of a better term (on behalf of there not being one), idiots are mixed up with a few who know what they're doing. The latter are usually traveling in packs because they don't want anything to do with the former. So if it's unbalanced now it would be even moreso if the idiots actually had to deal with the consequences of their actions. So the current mechanic is a necessary evil.

On that note, and somewhat offtopic, I'd like BW to make the gametypes more forgiving, or atleast in normal warzones. VS is a horrible map/gametype in the current enviroment because you simply can't be everywhere at once and you are at no fault when you are fighting 6 enemies with one other team mate and the other side still manages to drop a door. On the other maps you still have a chance to turn it but on VS you're often screwed by one mistake. I hate that map.

unicornfive's Avatar

09.18.2013 , 02:41 AM | #19
Quote: Originally Posted by snaplemouton View Post
3. Many spells do too many things at the same time... First thing that come to mind: Force leap. It's a gap closer, a root, a damage dealing ability, a rage builder AND an interrupt. That is BEFORE it get boosted by additional talent/set bonus. It can then become a 4 second immunity to CC and +10% damage done for a vigilance guardian. That's SEVEN things tied to ONE ability. It's way too much.
Solution: Remove the damage counterpart of all hard stuns (Except for stasis/choke), remove the interrupt and damage from force leap, remove or reduce the damage of most slows and roots.
Im still w8ing for an answer. Which is that talent exactly that gives +10% dmg specificaly for a VIGILANCE guardian? Cause i dont Actually think you are proposing to nerf an ability because some end game pvp gear gives it a set bonus??? And thats for BOTH sent and guardians, NOT for vigilance guardians. Vigilance guardians are the last class that needs nerf in dmg.

And no, leap isnt an ability that does too much. On every mmo that has leap (charge) it does the same exactly things, builds main resource, deals low dmg and stuns target or root it, so when animation finish, you wont be 10 meters behind your enemt again...BW's resolve didnt work very well with stun on leap when they made that change, and they made it again root+interrupt. If you want an ability that does too much, that is Tracer Missile...
It is ranged, it deals high damage (more than leap...) , it reduces the dmg you take, it reduces target's armor,
it increases dmg of rail shot, it reduces cast time of healing scan, it has a chance to finish the cd of unload, it increases the dmg of unload. It increases the dmg of heetseaker missiles. Woahh there BW!!! Thats NINE (9) things that 1 ability does!! Nerf !! Nerf!!!

UncelSam's Avatar

09.18.2013 , 03:57 AM | #20
Dont forget the premades that ruin ALL pvp WZs

Theres so few playing the game now that you Always run into premades in WZs.

Equal and fun WZs are so rare since so few plays this shttty game anymore.